I'm sorry but not being able to do the two Artifact Quests in LFR is bullshit.

[Tech614]

If every single player that didn't raid above LFR left you would at best have 200k players in WoW.

43k unique GUILDS, not players killed Archimonde on normal.

This expansion thus far, has a far higher participation in normal then WoD did. Your numbers don't add up homebre.

[Jtbrig7390]

43k unique GUILDS, not players killed Archimonde on normal.

This expansion thus far, has a far higher participation in normal then WoD did. Your numbers don't add up homebre.

You mean 43k unique guilds killed a boss on NM in content that lasted over a year.......

Color me shocked.

exact numbers don't matter. The fact reminds that "Hardcore Raider" playerbase is super small and always has been.

[snackfeat]

You mean 43k unique guilds killed a boss on NM in content that lasted over a year.......

Color me shocked.

exact numbers don't matter. The fact reminds that "Hardcore Raider" playerbase is super small and always has been.

Normal mode in legion is by no means hardcore. It's just as easy to pug as mythic dungeons, and EN is very fast to clear too.

[Logwyn]

I strongly believe that LFR is not actually raiding. Like 100%. I think that the legendary items should have never been obtainable via LFR. Ever. Just like they weren't in Cata. Horrible change and I'm glad they're giving some more exclusive rewards to those people who choose to grind out real raiding.

What's "real" raiding though? Honestly reading some of the threads about raiding normal isn't "real" raiding either. As they say its easy at this stage to just pug it. Which basically makes Normal in the realm of LFR if its easy to just pug and clear it.

Real raiding then would be at least Heroic or just mythic? Or Shall we go back to the BC days where to do a boss you have to farm up resist gear in order for your tanks to tank the boss? How about the fire resist gear for the entire raid or frost gear to do that frost dragon in Naxx like in vanilla?

Where do you draw the line of "real" raiding? What makes raiding "real"? You can't say its setting up a schedule, getting your guild to run at a certain time and day(s).... You can do that with LFR...

If normal is butt ass easy. Heroic?

[Osmeric]

This is arbitrary though and merely side steps the question of why thise rewards are exclusive to that content.

Why not? I mean, are you objecting to the notion that ANY reward is exclusive to that content? If not, why is this particular reward not suitable as reward for that content, if other rewards are ok?

[Sansnom]

Because it triggers the carebear brigade when they can't have the same things as raiders.

Apparently, exclusive PVP titles and mounts aren't an issue, just raiders.

If I were to hypothesize, I'd say that they feel bad about a computer wrecking their shit, whereas PVP has the human factor.

And having it available in LFR triggers the "raiders crybabies" that are no "exclusive" in the game.

At this point, LFR is just bad for many players. Blizzard should just remove the LFR difficulty and have LFR as a tool for the other difficulties.

This is of course not free. They will need to replace "raids" as an end game content for the "carebear brigade", meaning small group and solo content. Which means no more big raids, because, whether you like it or not, raiders is minority in the game yet their "content" remains the primary content for all. This imbalance needs to change. The sooner they do this, the better. Raiders have their exclusive hard raids that the majority does not care about and the majority have their content that does not require mixing with the "raiders".

[Osmeric]

The question, "Is LFR raiding?" it totally irrelevant for the topic of this thread. Blizzard came out and said that these quests are for a cosmetic reward that they are reserving for organized raiders.

Right. This means "organized raiding" is a proper subset of "raiding" (if not, the word "organized" would be redundant.)

LFR is a kind of unorganized raiding. But it's still raiding.

[Snuffleupagus]

Serious question.

Do you realize the amount of raiders above LFR are a minority?

If every single player that didn't raid above LFR left you would at best have 200k players in WoW. This group of people you shit on pay for the content you get to enjoy. Once again LFR is there to justfiy the budget for raiding because the raiding community above LFR is fucken small.

Just wondering if you realize this.

Serious question.

Do you realise Blizzard are simply pandering to you? They are providing the minimum amount to keep you hooked and avoid complaints about difficulty, since they don't want to manage four difficulties instead of three. They will gut LFR as far as possible to minimise overheads and leave it there.

If every person that complained that LFR rewards aren't good enough left, they would change course and tweak. That's why tier is back, and that's why non-cosmetic rewards are still there. Calling it now - Blacksmithing mount will be Normal+ only.

And they won't leave, because Blizzard have made a calculated bet that enough are so hopelessly addicted that they either won't leave, or will be tempted back with hollow content like LFR.

Just wondering if you realise this.

- - - Updated - - -

I strongly believe that LFR is not actually raiding. Like 100%. I think that the legendary items should have never been obtainable via LFR. Ever. Just like they weren't in Cata. Horrible change and I'm glad they're giving some more exclusive rewards to those people who choose to grind out real raiding.

To be fair, those items were horribly mismanaged. The quest line should never have been done the way it was, as you now move from WoD to Legion as a new player and have little explanation to how Guldan is in our time and what the hell is going on with Cordana.

Legendaries should have been handled way differently to not poison the story for new players.

[Jtbrig7390]

Serious question.

Do you realise Blizzard are simlly pandering to you? They are providing the minimum amount to keep you hooked and avoid complaints about difficulty, since they don't want to manage four difficulties instead of three. They will gut LFR as far as possible to minimise overheads and leave it there.

If every person that complained that LFR rewards aren't good enough left, they would change course and tweak. That's why tier is back, and that's why non-cosmetic rewards are still there. Calling it now - Blacksmithing mount will be Normal+ only.

And they won't leave, because Blizzard have made a calculated bet that enough are so hopelessly addicted that they either won't leave, or will be tempted back with hollow content like LFR.

Just wondering if you realise this.

Its funny how you avoided answering my question and also the bolded can be said to every player in WoW.

It isn't just one group they are doing this too.

Catering is a better word to use and they are doing it to everything.

[Snuffleupagus]

You mean 43k unique guilds killed a boss on NM in content that lasted over a year.......

Color me shocked.

exact numbers don't matter. The fact reminds that "Hardcore Raider" playerbase is super small and always has been.

Conservative estimate: 430,000 players
Average estimate: 645,000 players
Liberal estimate: 860,000 players
Unrealistic estimate:1,290,000 players

Generous guess of 5 million players would give us 8-17% (not including the unrealistic estimate, because reasons) of the playerbase that killed the last boss of HFC. I'd include the players that skipped normal Archimonde, but that would be too much guesswork, even for me.

And we're not even including the people that would have gotten to Mannoroth and stalled.

The point is that saying 200k players would be left if LFR heroes left is disingenuous at best.

- - - Updated - - -

Pandering? This isn't a political event. Blizzard is offering entertainment options to everyone. Since sadly the most entertaining thing in this game seems to be getting gear, they gave gear back to LFR (because I am going to assume that the biggest dent to their playerbase in WoD WAS the LFR players) to incentivize it. Why do you need to diminish the LFR player by saying Blizzard is pandering to them?

They do it to everyone, but no one as much as the LFR player. It is pandering, and they will continue to find the bare minimum to keep them investing money into the game so that:

a) Investors are happy with money coming in
b) Devs are happy with making content that they enjoy creating

It's not political, it's business.

[Fullmetalmoo]

i'm playing Azeroth's tiniest violin for you

[Xkiller9000]

Serious question.

Do you realize the amount of raiders above LFR are a minority?

If every single player that didn't raid above LFR left you would at best have 200k players in WoW. This group of people you shit on pay for the content you get to enjoy. Once again LFR is there to justfiy the budget for raiding because the raiding community above LFR is fucken small.

Just wondering if you realize this.

we alll realize it, its like anything, why should you get the things we do when we put in 10x the time and work. and thers FAR more than 200k normal/heroic and mythic raiders

you pay for access to the game, no the in game rewards it offers - earn your damn rewards or quit the game LFR hero

[Banquetto]

I'm one of the players that does LFR and goes no further in raiding. Hell, I don't even do Mythic dungeons (so this questline was out of the picture for me already). I have no interest in pug made via the group finder. And this works great for me, I have no interest in changing my playstyle for any reason.

All that said, I can't really get upset about this. So what if some silly artifact appearance is locked away behind content that I have no interest in. I just won't acquire it and neither will lots of other people.

I was going to post my opinion on this thread, but I don't need to, because I was going to say exactly what you just said.

I used to be an organized raider. From vanilla through the 4.0 tier in Cataclysm, I was in a guild which raided, with scheduled raid times, etc. etc. I loved it, but that was nearly six years ago, I'm not in the same place now as I was then and am no longer willing and able to commit to such things.

I have done LFR raids in recent years, I have done dungeon-finder queuing for 5-mans. I have not set foot inside a single MoP, WoD or Legion raid in non-LFR difficulty; I have never done a Mythic dungeon or a Challenge mode in WoD.

And I can't muster up even the slightest bit of anger about the fact that my playstyle means that I will never be able to tint my artifact (Holy Priest) to have one specific combination of model and cyan-coloured tint. What a ridiculous thing to throw a tantrum about!!

[MrKnubbles]

And that's shitty because it will be required to do a tier past its point. I don't want to be doing EN LFR when the next LFR is out.

But the gear will be, like, the same ilvl and offer the same difficulty.

[Traxwow]

Is this bait? People can't honestly enjoy a system that does not punish you for making mistakes and rewards you for it.

[Advent]

I get a similar impression. Not sure why raiding is so important for them to shit on when organized PVP is more exclusive and gives almost as many if not equal rewards. Most of which also become unobtainable once the season passes.

Man people will always find something to hate over. Usually it's against people having a good time sadly. Jealousy and envy run rampant in this world. But even more so on this Internet.

To preface this, a casual is quite literally defined as a person who does something irregularly. Meaning, no one who raids on a schedule consistently should really refer to himself/herself as such. The dedicated, is more in-line with that ideology.

OT: It has less to do with the rewards in my opinion, and more to do with how raiders are perceived by those that don't partake. The general community of raiders is seen as very insular and aggressive to outsiders. Coupled with how eagerly Blizzard tries to coerce the more casual players to play with these seemingly "militant" individuals, it creates this tension on both sides. From the raiders who don't want to play with people who won't conform to their rules, to the casuals who apparently want to do and have content that is meaningful without being undermined by the hardcore audience.

[xpose]

God forbid blizzard puts something in the game for people to strive for but all we hear is silver spoons banging against the counter.

[Dhrizzle]

To preface this, a casual is quite literally defined as a person who does something irregularly. Meaning, no one who raids on a schedule consistently should really refer to himself/herself as such. The dedicated, is more in-line with that ideology.

I call raiders who have set times and set groups "formal" as the opposite of "casual."

[Jtbrig7390]

I'm ashamed to say, I decided that I am actually gonna try and get this done with PuGing. Ofc I am a civilized person so I will do it through OpenRaid and not expose myself to the vagaries of LFG. And that also means I have to get my Holy spec up to par.

Did EN tonight, left at the Eye. No matter how many times you tell some people how to do a fight they just don't lissen.

As It stands I am 2/7N with two kills on the first boss. Mite do more later in the week

[Jtbrig7390]

I did try a PuG. It was horrid. The raid leader thought we could just do it with no raid leading required. Even if people know the fights, you still need to put some markers and make sure everyone is on the same boat . . .

To be clear I wasn't leading this group I joined it. Had a healer who got out healed by both tanks (DK and Warrior). Had a dps doing 70k dps on the eye (Hunter).

Didn't wipe once on the first boss and wiped once on the bear boss. At the eye everything just fell apart. I feel hes going to be the pug killer.