MH17 missile 'came from Russia', Dutch-led investigators say

[Kellhound]

A COURT kellhound, A COURT.

Investigation results mean JACK SHIT, if they are not verified by a court.

Ok, find a court that has judges with TS/SCI clearances and can hold closed hearings. Of course we all know civilian judges are experts at inspecting military intelligence.

[zm3i]

@zm3i Russia within u much stronk comrade

salute u comrade,
[i drink a bottle of vodka, put on my ushanka, play my balalaika while my bear is checking nuclear heater in the basement ]

[Hooked]

I understand Latin is not your native alphabet, but since you manage commenting using it, you may actually try reading the article first. It was a Dutch-led investigation.
Your disregard of basic facts casts doubt on all the rest of your narrative as well, of course.

Yeah and look at the dutch politicians now, they are being pummeled for their refugee open border stance. They will say anything to save themselves from the reality of the danger they have put their people into.

[Kellhound]

We did the same with Germany 100 years ago with the Treaty of Versailles. We all know how that turned out...

The Germans were actually successful prior to WWI though.....

[caervek]

Before KAL 007 was shot down it was positively identified as a civilian 747 and not a RC-135.

I think your thinking of Iran Air Flight 655, KAL-007 was believed to be a Boeing RC-135. The attacking pilot did note that it appeared to have been made to look like a civilian airliner but never communicated that to the ground as it was what he expected to see.

KAL-007 was unfortunate but completely excusable (main cause in reality being pilot error and unlucky timing), MH17 and IA-655 on the other hand are inexcusable.

[Ulmita]

Ok, find a court that has judges with TS/SCI clearances and can hold closed hearings. Of course we all know civilian judges are experts at inspecting military intelligence.

This is not how real world works kell. JIT needs to go to hague court.

[Deleted]

And just who do you expect the US is going to hand over classified information to? Russia? Snowballs chance in hell that happens.

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To lay blame to the party that fired the missile. Sometimes the answer is all you can get and justice cannot be served.

Why wouldn't you let an international court handle the case?

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The Germans were actually successful prior to WWI though.....

Prior to ww1 they barely had a country.
What Skroe is saying will bring ww3. I know he wants it so much as he's compensating over other stuff he is lacking, but ww3 is not a good scenario for anyone.

[Flarelaine]

I don't need to persuade any retarded western shithead, cause "Russia is always wrong" is ur lifestyle and scapegoat, me or any other person ain't gonna change what's been forged and honed for centuries.

Infracted - Minor Flaming

You are right in stating that Russophobia has been forged over the centuries. Mostly by seeing uninvited Russian troops.

[Kellhound]

I think your thinking of Iran Air Flight 655, KAL-007 was believed to be a Boeing RC-135. The attacking pilot did note that it appeared to have been made to look like a civilian airliner but never communicated that to the ground as it was what he expected to see.

KAL-007 was unfortunate but completely excusable (main cause in reality being pilot error and unlucky timing), MH17 and IA-655 on the other hand are inexcusable.

No, the Su-15 pilot has been quite clear he knew it was a 747 and not an RC-135. In a 1991 interview he stated "I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing. I knew this was a civilian plane." RC-135s, being 707s, only have one row of windows. He would easily have known the difference.

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This is not how real world works kell. JIT needs to go to hague court.

Because, in the real world (not your fantasy world), classified data does not get transferred to unvetted people, like civilian judges. There are things far more important than convincing you of anything.

[Ulmita]

Because, in the real world (not your fantasy world), classified data does not get transferred to unvetted people, like civilian judges. There are things far more important than convincing you of anything.

In your world kell you think you can accuse others for a thing9 like that and then say sorry, i cant disclose classified data. get a grip

[Flarelaine]

Yeah and look at the dutch politicians now, they are being pummeled for their refugee open border stance. They will say anything to save themselves from the reality of the danger they have put their people into.

Politicians do that everywhere, but Dutch problems with unintegrated immigrants go back way further than the present refugee crisis which means most of the blame should not fall on thes one in charge now. Accordingly, the Dutch had some important early birds in speaking up on the dangers of Islam, like Fortuyn or Theo van Gogh.

[caervek]

No, the Su-15 pilot has been quite clear he knew it was a 747 and not an RC-135. In a 1991 interview he stated "I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing. I knew this was a civilian plane." RC-135s, being 707s, only have one row of windows. He would easily have known the difference.

Wow, I've always had a high opinion of you Kell, I thought you were above editing quotes to further your argument. Here's the full quote:

I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing. I knew this was a civilian plane. But for me this meant nothing. It is easy to turn a civilian type of plane into one for military use.

The ground forces had no idea it wasn't the spy plane they thought it was, the pilot assumed it was because that's what he expected to see. Like I said KAL-007 was tragic but the main causes were pilot error and unfortunate timing. The guy who shot it down was no more at fault than the ground it hit.

[Kellhound]

Why wouldn't you let an international court handle the case?

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Prior to ww1 they barely had a country.
What Skroe is saying will bring ww3. I know he wants it so much as he's compensating over other stuff he is lacking, but ww3 is not a good scenario for anyone.

Because they are not capable of receiving classified material to be used in a case. Particularly when there really is nothing anyone can do even if a court came out and said Putin had ordered the plane downed personally.

Germany was 40 years old when WWI started, Russia is just over 20 (if you want to talk about the unified independent countries). Germans as a people of course go back far longer, just as the Russians do.

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In your world kell you think you can accuse others for a thing9 like that and then say sorry, i cant disclose classified data. get a grip

Funny thing about accusations that have no need to be proven to the plebes, they tend to not be proven to the plebes.

[Deleted]

Because they are not capable of receiving classified material to be used in a case. Particularly when there really is nothing anyone can do even if a court came out and said Putin had ordered the plane downed personally.

Germany was 40 years old when WWI started, Russia is just over 20 (if you want to talk about the unified independent countries). Germans as a people of course go back far longer, just as the Russians do.

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Funny thing about accusations that have no need to be proven to the plebes, they tend to not be proven to the plebes.

Sorry, we can't just take your word Kelly.
Yes Germany was 40 years old. Newborn.
Most importantly, the Treaty of versailles set up the scenario for the rise of Nazi Germany and ww2.
Some people learn from their mistakes.

[Ulmita]

Funny thing about accusations that have no need to be proven to the plebes, they tend to not be proven to the plebes.

If they don't take their case to the court it has ZERO - NADA - ZIP - NO significance / weight which is pitty for the families of the dead.

JIT can accuse and say w/e they want but it is nothing until court says its something.

[Skroe]

In fairness people have been saying since day 1 that MA were negligent to fly over an active warzone where planes were being shot down (and the Ukraine were greedy for not closing the airspace).

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Before I say this I want to stress that I do believe it was the rebels that shot it down, either with one of the Buks they had captured or one they had been given. However I would take what the investigators say about missiles with a pinch of salt as it's not their area of expertise and they have already been shown to be wrong about the model of warhead the missile had (it's manufacturers even detonated one next to an old airliner to prove this).

I maintain my original sequence of events is likely the most probable one.

1) The Ukrainian military was using air power to resupply and hit the Russian astroturfed uprising in Donbass. The faux-rebellion was buckling.

2) To turn it around, the Russians needed to keep the Ukrainian air force grounded and make the Ukrainian military fight in tanks, on foot and in trucks.

3) To do this they start sending anti-air weaponry into Ukraine, some of it operated by Russian regular troops. Some of it operated by rebels who are being overseen by Russian troops (kind of like how the US does in Iraq/Afghanistan).

4) As has been illustrated and discussed on many occasions in these forums, the Russian military is a largely conscript force (on 1 year contracts, which undermines unit cohesion and skill building) and deeply unprofessional mess. Many of them are uneducated Russians from rural areas who lack the connections and money to bribe their way out of mandatory service. These are also, as evidenced by the "secret funerals" and statements of families, the people sent into Ukraine.

5) From the above, Russia and it's proxies began a campaign to keep he Ukrainian Air Force Grounded. A few days prior to MH17, they shot down two cargo aircraft, a couple of days a part.

6) Probably the same unit that shot down those cargo aircraft committed a tremendous fuckup, and shot down MH17, thinking it was another Ukrainian cargo aircraft (see: bad training).

7) Russia spent tremendous energy denying and obfuscating it because to admit to the fuck up would be to both acknowledge culpability and to acknowledge that Russian troops were operating in Ukraine.


I really think this is the most likely explanation. Russia was not out to make a point by shooting down a civilian jetliners. Russian troops didn't on their own go out of their way to kill civilians (in this case) from other countries. The most likely explanation given the cargo aircraft shoot downs the days before was that, to put it simply, inexperienced and under trained Russian troops and (maybe) their proxies that had successful gone 2 for 2, put their itchy trigger finger to use and shot down an aircraft that looked like another cargo aircraft.


In any event I hope that this provides the opportunity for sanctions to be tightened and the economic crunch be felt by every day Russians. I also hope for the opening of a criminal case against Russian leadership. It doesn't have to be successful... it just has to name The War Criminal Vladmir Putin and his gang as accused murderers. Russia is not the only country that gets to wage information warfare.

[Kellhound]

Wow, I've always had a high opinion of you Kell, I thought you were above editing quotes to further your argument. Here's the full quote:


The ground forces had no idea it wasn't the spy plane they thought it was, the pilot assumed it was because that's what he expected to see. Like I said KAL-007 was tragic but the main causes were pilot error and unfortunate timing. The guy who shot it down was no more at fault than the ground it hit.

The pilot also stated it was flying with full running lights and that he didnt tell ground control it was a 747 for the simple reason they didnt ask. Not that it mattered as his boss had already stated there was no need to identify it prior to shoot-down, as well as stating they would shoot it down even over international waters. At the time, the US had no recon 747s. I will give you that Soviet pilots were not trained to think, but still.

[caervek]

I maintain my original sequence of events is likely the most probable one.

That's basically how I feel, except I'm entirely convinced they would have needed to send Russian equipment operators when such a large amount of the rebel forces were former USSR military, it's almost impossible they didn't have at least a couple of people who knew how to operate a Buk.

[Kellhound]

Sorry, we can't just take your word Kelly.
Yes Germany was 40 years old. Newborn.
Most importantly, the Treaty of versailles set up the scenario for the rise of Nazi Germany and ww2.
Some people learn from their mistakes.

Its not my word, and I really dont care if you believe it or not because you opinion on it simply doesnt matter. Same as mine.

And Russia is 20, also a newborn.
Versailles was over the top, but sanctions against Russia are not even close to it.

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If they don't take their case to the court it has ZERO - NADA - ZIP - NO significance / weight which is pitty for the families of the dead.

JIT can accuse and say w/e they want but it is nothing until court says its something.

It means nothing if Putin himself comes out tomorrow and says "Yup, all true, we did it", BECAUSE NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN. Russia is not going to be punished further, the rebels are basically untouchable, so what is the point of compromising classified data? Sure isnt worth it to make nobodies like us happy.

[Skroe]

dear degenerate,
only fucking shitheads like urself, think that a vassal state of the U.S. can independently carry out an "investigation".

I post here to laugh at western degenerates, fed up with fox news/bild/bbc vomit-like propaganda. They do their job well, u can see that in upper comments stating "Russians are the worst" "fuck Russia" etc. I'm here just for pleasure, to have fun with all those morons, with Scroe being the funniest of'em all.
I don't need to persuade any retarded western shithead, cause "Russia is always wrong" is ur lifestyle and scapegoat, me or any other person ain't gonna change what's been forged and honed for centuries.

Infracted - Minor Flaming

Russia is a terminally declined country mostly notable for e being effectively a nuclear armed gas station. It's gone from Superpower to regional power to regional spoiler in 25 years.

But really the Russian Federation is the third and perhaps final incarnation of the bad old dream of Russian imperialism. The Russian Empire. The Soviet Union. The Russian Federation. Three versions of the same delusion that there must be a Russian superstate that stretches from the Berring to the Baltic, and that it must be a continental and global power. The management changed. The motivating political philosophy changed. But it was all dressed up versions of the same call for an empire.

The dream is dead and it isn't coming back. Period. A strong Russia cannot and will not exist between a wealthy and ultimately thriving European Union on the West, and a fully risen China in the east. It is no mistake that as the power and significance of both institutions has grown over the past 20 years, Russia's power has ebbed.

The most significant concern about Russia is that as the fallen god tumbles down Mount Olympus, that in it's wake it doesn't cause a catastrophe for the rest of us.

For my part I believe that Russia as we know it will not exist in twenty five years. I think that the Russian Federation is a "reorganization stage" in the ongoing disintegration of the historic Russian Empire (the Soviet Union was a stage too). Prior empires, particularly in antiquity, went through similar reorganizations and "renewals" that ultimately weren't. But it may endure, but no matter what, it's power will be far reduced from today, and unimaginably far from even 15 years ago.

Once again this is the side show. The main event of the century is the coming Geopolitical brawl between the United States and China, a conflict Russia will play almost no role in. Ultimately, I believe historians will regard Russia's hijinks in Europe the past few years as little more than a foot note, lost in horror that is Russia's ongoing industrial, demographic and political declines.

Ultimately the Untied States and NATO will need to ensure that the "End of Russia as a political entity" contingency is planned for, so it's nuclear arsenal and technical know how is contained.