His rebirth will be the story of your redemption.

[Deleted]

There is a sliver lining to all of this at least knife wife pretty much holds the views of the player base. I don't trust the windchime.

[Nurvus]

You know nothing, Xe'ra Snow.

[Snuffleupagus]

Did you just assume my alignment?

I identify as Chaotic Evil, and this quest triggers me.

[lmaoboat]

I'd be perfectly okay with, "Illidan was a deeply flawed, but we need him to fight the Legion", but that "His rebirth will be the story of your redemption." shit makes me want to strangle that sanctimonious wind chime with her own Illidan body pillow.

[Florena]

A quest in Outland that has Illidan yelling about having beaten Arthas does not "line up" with Malfurion's claim that Illidan spent his days sitting atop the Black Temple "brooding" and replaying the events in his mind "a thousand times a day". Again I ask, how could Malfurion have known such a thing, especially the specifics of what is going on in his brother's mind? He never says. The Illidan book mentions the Arthas incident a couple of times and implies that Illidan needs to keep from touching the wound (which seems to have a lingering illness effect not unlike those inflicted by Nazgul blade in Tolkien's books) and to focus to stop himself from thinking about what happening, lest he get distracted from what needs to be done. This, IMO, is a better depiction of such an event besides "LOL HE WENT NUTS".

And sure, it might be a retcon. But if you look at Legion, they've handled what they've "retconned" about Illidan much more gracefully than they have a lot of other things. This whole expansion is so full of retcons that an entire book could be written detailing it. The Broken Isles and all of their inhabitants are gigantic retcons, much worse than anything than any of you have to say about Illidan's backstory. All of this nitpicking about "whitewashing" him is really funny when viewed in this light.

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.... so? We're discussing current lore -- all of the lore taken together, including the Illidan book, not just how he was perceived in 2002/2003/whenever.

Magic. Are you suggesting Malfurion just made the story up?

[Deleted]

He sounds pretty delusional to me.

Or a brilliant strategist to me. Think about it, you, as the champion, go to slay him having this knowledge that in the past he was defeated by Arthas and then when you are ready to face him he suddenly throws those words that startle you for a minute because now you don't know what is true and what is false and after that you have doubts, giving him an opening from the begining of the fight

[Strategos]

Malfurion said indeed in Vanilla, in an apparition before Remulos in Moonglade,



This is not an opinion, he was merely stating a fact. He is even sad of this situation.

And yes, in Warcraft 3, Illidan's main motivation was magic and power. The only reason he was fighting the demons was to please Tyrande, because she freed him. It was not to save the world. He was even ready to torn it apart to kill the Lich King. In TFT, he even said it himself:



So, yeah, Illidan in the RTS was pretty much unidimensional. Like most characters, to speak frankly... Not that I refuse any developpement in Illidan's character, but that's how he was in Warcraft 3.

I am aware of what Malfurion said. The argument is the distinction between an in-game character having an opinion on someone they never liked to begin with versus an objective source on said character.

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Didn't sound like Malfurion was judging Illidan, he told Remulos that Illidan went mad after his defeat at Icecrown citadel.

Considering that he brags about said defeat doesn't exactly help to deny this.



I am quoting what Illidan literally said about himself.



He went mad after his defeat against Arthas, happens sometimes if people suffer a heavy loss.

Then he went on to bring Outland under his heel because he knew KJ is coming for him.

That is the explanation given in BC, stop trying to read stuff into this simply because you dislike it.

Did other factors play a role? Maybe, Being locked up for 10k years, being a demon hybrid, carrying the Skull of Gul'dan around, knowing you're on the shitlist of the Leader of the Burning Legion might have played a role but i don't really think those would matter.

Yes because Malfurion clearly met with Illidan after this. Oh wait that is never cited as having happened in the lore. Malfurion likely heard news of Illidan's defeat, travel to Outlands, and alliance with Naga/Blood Elves and thought, like the old closed-minded racist bigot he is that Illidan must have lost his mind.

It's by no means objective or factual. It makes no sense. You aren't justifying anything but the fact that you like their bad writing in TBC that made no sense.

[Goldielocks]

I think being misunderstood makes sense, simply because Illidan had become demonic in nature. He used the same power as the force that tried to destroy Azeroth. At the same time, Illidan wasn't smart in showing he was a real ally.

Whether this is intentional or a retcon (being misunderstood vs just being crazy), we will never know, because it can be argued both ways.

[lmaoboat]

I think being misunderstood makes sense, simply because Illidan had become demonic in nature. He used the same power as the force that tried to destroy Azeroth. At the same time, Illidan wasn't smart in showing he was a real ally.

Whether this is intentional or a retcon (being misunderstood vs just being crazy), we will never know, because it can be argued both ways.

There was absolutely no need for Blizzard to whitewash his actions, he could have still been a flawed, tragic hero, and still been the hero of this story. But for some reason, they thought it would make more sense to do a thematic 180 and make "desperate measures" morality an absolute truth rather than an a moral ambiguity, and how dare we question Illidan-senpai. Maybe some writer just thought that, no you're being redeeming bit was clever, and just competely asinine.

[Goldielocks]

There was absolutely no need for Blizzard to whitewash his actions, he could have still been a flawed, tragic hero, and still been the hero of this story. But for some reason, they thought it would make more sense to do a thematic 180 and make "desperate measures" morality an absolute truth rather than an a moral ambiguity, and how dare we question Illidan-senpai. Maybe some writer just thought that, no you're being redeeming bit was clever, and just competely asinine.

I felt it was morally ambiguous, at least a little at this point. That part where he sacrificed mages to power himself was painfully cringe.

[KaPe]

Or a brilliant strategist to me. Think about it, you, as the champion, go to slay him having this knowledge that in the past he was defeated by Arthas and then when you are ready to face him he suddenly throws those words that startle you for a minute because now you don't know what is true and what is false and after that you have doubts, giving him an opening from the begining of the fight

... That's not a "brilliant strategy". By the time of TBC, we already fought C'thun, so we dealt with far more insidious influences on our mind. It wouldn't pause us for even a second.

Sure, Illidan doesn't really know that, but seriously? Counting on enemies thinking "are you really that stupid" as a part of battle plan? And let's not forget we dealt with his bullshit already, when we killed one of his Illidari champions.

[Deleted]

Know who else is a mortal enemy of the Legion? The old Gods. Maybe they're misunderstood too.

I know that you think that you have made a ground breaking discovery for an irrefutable parallel, but if you think a little bit about it, I am sure you will realize why the comparison doesn't work.

I am not justifying for Illidan; I have always said that the charming thing about his character is that he is a piece of shit who acted like an idiot half of the time. Doesn't mean that his intentions weren't in fact pure, and certainly doesn't mean that his bad action were justifiable, but it certainly also doesn't mean that the two are the same just because of the common enemy. Hell, the Alliance, Horde, and Azshara all oppose the Legion; does that mean they are all the same?

[Tenjen]

Of course they are. Anyone who tried to understand them fell into insanity...

3 expansions later we find out the void lords are on the run from a greater enemy and were encroaching on our turf in the process.

knowing illidan, he might team up with the void lords to defeat the legion, making a new (worse) situation for us all.

[Enthralled]

Magic. Are you suggesting Malfurion just made the story up?

I'm suggesting -- no, I am saying outright -- that it was terrible storytelling on Blizzard's fault. The fact that they've acknowledged this themselves and retconned it (yes, retconned -- there's that word again -- retcons aren't always bad, people) so that we now know Illidan's side of the story would seem to be a strong case for the idea that they agree with the fans that never liked how Illidan's character was kicked to the curb in BC.

[Samin]

Did you just assume my alignment?

I identify as Chaotic Evil, and this quest triggers me.

You joke, but I think that's why we have so many people super angry about this. This is exactly what Blizzard is doing here. They're making the adventurers (the players) more than a participant who takes part by passing through the story, they make the adventurers an actual part of the story. With that, they do assert some attributes about the adventurers and their motives. This does not necessarily match with the motives of the players. The players get angry.

Honestly I'm fine with it as long as they don't completely powerplay the adventurers (which I don't expect)

Actually I think this whole situation is extremely misunderstood. Xe'ra isn't trying to paint us as monsters, it's trying to get us to accept Illidans redemption. If Xe'ra thought we were only fueled by hatred, I don't think the Naaru would bother with us at all. But there was also hatred. That hatred stops us from accepting Illidans (supposedly necessary) redemption. That's why we need to get rid of it.

Also, if it doesn't work out, we can kill him again for upgrades warglaives - if it does work out, we can defeat the Burning Legion...it's essentially a win-win situation.

[wowaccounttom]

The only real question I have is if Xe'ra allready knew that Illidan was the solution, and the "Illidan" book clearly show that, why did A'dal "led" the attack on the Black temple ? Instead if just telling us "hey I got some serious Naaru intel that Illidan not only isn't really a bad guy but is actually working on a plan to kill Kil'Jaeden".

Aren't the Naaru not united ? Worse, are opposite Naaru factions a thing ?

what you are saying is that a'dal is an evil cunt that set us back 3 expansions, right?

[Danner]

Personally, i couldn't stand Xe'ra and this Illidan praise, yet the final sentence just takes the cake.

So the story Legion concerning Illidan is not about him, but rather we have to redeem ourselves because we killed him.

So Illidan moves from a grey character, to a pure villain, to the ultimate good in the Universe that we foolishly killed while our hearts and minds were corrupted by hatred.

I don't have any issues with the player character not being the ultimate hero all the time, but this is just awful.

I have a fan theory on this.

Xe'ra is Sargeras.
There is no Naruu prime. The leader of the Naruu is A'dal. There is no story reason to introduce another godlike being to help you out, when A'dal could have fit the bill.
Xe'ra doesn't exist. It is just the legion messing with your head. And it takes someone extremely gullible - ie, the player - for that to work.

In the real world, where you're not besieged by some shoulder conscience, Illidan was actually a real douche. He did not get the title "The Betrayer" for nothing. Forget the part about consuming the skull of Gul'dan and becoming some sort of fel monstrosity. Forget the part about breaking some silly taboo law by creating a well of eternity. Those things might be what put him behind bars - but not what makes him a douche. Arguably, neither of those things were bad deeds.

No the MAJOR bad deeds were after he was released. Frozen Throne timeline.
- Aiding the naga in their war against the night elves.
- Allying with Kil'jaeden of the Burning Legion.
- On their orders, actively trying to kill the Lich King. Twice.
- Enslavement and torture of just about everyone still alive in Outland
- Facilitating and worsening the Blood Elves' situation, directly resulting in the Blood Elves leaving the alliance.

And let's not forget how he handled the demons at black rook hold.
- FIRST time he needed to, he drained his followers dry. Cruel, but probably necessary. They lived.
- SECOND time he needed to, he drained his followers to their death. Then tries to justify it being necessary.

In short: Illidan is a douche.

[Enthralled]

I have a fan theory on this.

Xe'ra is Sargeras.
There is no Naruu prime. The leader of the Naruu is A'dal. There is no story reason to introduce another godlike being to help you out, when A'dal could have fit the bill.
Xe'ra doesn't exist. It is just the legion messing with your head. And it takes someone extremely gullible - ie, the player - for that to work.

Nope, sorry. The next installment of the questline is up on the PTR and Xe'ra is real. Someone else -- probably Sargeras -- wants Illidan's body to possess as an avatar. There's a thread about it here on the front page.

About Illidan being a douche, well sure he is. Like that's ever been under question. :P I hope he's still a douche after he and Xe'ra fuse together. I think a smack-talking naaru-Illidan will be absolutely-fucking-hilarious.

[Danner]

Nope, sorry. The next installment of the questline is up on the PTR and Xe'ra is real. Someone else -- probably Sargeras -- wants Illidan's body to possess as an avatar. There's a thread about it here on the front page.

About Illidan being a douche, well sure he is. Like that's ever been under question. :P I hope he's still a douche after he and Xe'ra fuse together. I think a smack-talking naaru-Illidan will be absolutely-fucking-hilarious.

I'd say that just means theory confirmed.

What better reason to lure a gullible player character into putting a dubious soul into the wrong body, than the ruse that someone else will do it first if you don't hurry?!

I must admit it was not quite the way around I was expecting it to happen, but eh... close enough?

[Ealyssa]

Nope, sorry. The next installment of the questline is up on the PTR and Xe'ra is real.

The "Illidan" book also makes this clear.