I'm sorry but not being able to do the two Artifact Quests in LFR is bullshit.

[Icaras]

Why are said players interested in LFR at all then?

Because we want to do the raid, but we want to do it the way we want. The LFR way, and we're happy for others to do it the pug way, the normal way, the heroic way or the mythioc way.
But we either don't want/can't join a regular raid and/or we don't want to deal with the PuG scene. For every one person here that posts "it's so easy, I pugged blah out of blah!" I'm sure there are many more that faced a night of "Declines" or "No"s....and for all we know, that person faces the same next week when they want to run again.

LFR Can't say "No" it can only say "Come back when you get a bit more gear". Worse yet, even if you do get kicked by the group...30 minutes later, you can requeue into a new group that won't know you've been kicked (Plus if somebody gets kicked often enough, there seems to be an immunity system. Ever wondered why some people have 3 or 4 hours timers before they can be kciked (I've been told that's) why)

Better yet, when I want to :FR, I can queue, see the average time and decide if I have enough time that session to both get in and have time to finish the run.

If I PuG...who knows how long it'll take to fill a new group, or get accepted to somebody elses.

Blizzard gave us tools to avoid the nightmare that is pugging for those of us for who it is a nightmare...so yes, we're quite bitter they're trying to take that away from us.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Exactly this! Just the suggestion of using an addon to fund a PUG (OpenRaid) is already a segregating tactic. We have a dungeon finder interface, and if you would really want to be a part of the game community, you would use this, and not some 3rd party tools. I probably would look in the official forums if I am not lucky with the ingame tool, but having to install an extra addon which should be obsolete by now, this is just too much. Especially for someone who have never used this addon before, and has no track record, it will have no use, anyway.

Raiders create a glass ceiling and if you point that out, they become agressive and put all blame on you.

- - - Updated - - -



No they are not. In LFR, a machine decides on your participation judging only if you surpass the minimum item level requirement (=you are allowed to queue), your role, and the timepoint when you appoint to the queue. That's all. You are sorted into the next available group and start the run when it's full. You don't have to handle one decline after the other. The machine is impartial, people are not.

Determination buffs are only there to compensate that this automatic mechanic cannot create a "good group" in terms of synergy and player skill.

I feel like their must be a lot of inexperienced here.

OpenRaid is a website that allows people to schedule and form groups. Unlike the in game tool that requires you to find an active group right now or start your own right now OpenRaid lets you plan ahead for when you know your free. While I think they have an addon it by no means is required. In fact, I haven't got it installed and I use it several times a month to form and join pugs.

Now I sense what must only be bigoted hate against "raiders".

Judging a whole demographic based solely on what entertains them in WoW is a pretty shameful act. It sounds like someone that got roughed up by a couple of black people in their lives standing on a soap box and telling everyone all black people do is steal and rob from the gentle white race. That would be racist as shit. Which is wrong. It stands right next to your judgement of ALL raiders into one big shit bag. Yeah I get it their are some asshole raiders. But their are assholes in every group. Just a fact man. I judge groups / people / cultures by the whole not a few of its parts.

Next I look at you LFR ramble at the end..

Good group because of buffs. Man a lot of those went away bro. LFR does no judging beyond raw item level because it is absolutely not needed. Some judging in other difficulties is needed. If in normal for example 2/3rds of the raid was AFK most of the given time you likely couldn't move forward or kill bosses. So you have to make sure people aren't AFK. That's not being mean, it's asking someone to do what they literally just signed up for to do. Everyone understands getting up to take a leak or grab a soda but a lot of people expect a raw carry and blame the people having to haul the extra weight as the problem? Give me a break. I had one guy in my pug hearth out during trash to do world quests and expected summons back at bosses. Yeah I kicked him. I guess that's some glass ceiling you would say. But I didn't judge a whole play style for it. He was just an individual idiot nothing more. Just one example of many I could put forth.

[Chemii]

Because we want to do the raid, but we want to do it the way we want. The LFR way, and we're happy for others to do it the pug way, the normal way, the heroic way or the mythioc way.
But we either don't want/can't join a regular raid and/or we don't want to deal with the PuG scene. For every one person here that posts "it's so easy, I pugged blah out of blah!" I'm sure there are many more that faced a night of "Declines" or "No"s....and for all we know, that person faces the same next week when they want to run again.

LFR Can't say "No" it can only say "Come back when you get a bit more gear". Worse yet, even if you do get kicked by the group...30 minutes later, you can requeue into a new group that won't know you've been kicked (Plus if somebody gets kicked often enough, there seems to be an immunity system. Ever wondered why some people have 3 or 4 hours timers before they can be kciked (I've been told that's) why)

Better yet, when I want to :FR, I can queue, see the average time and decide if I have enough time that session to both get in and have time to finish the run.

If I PuG...who knows how long it'll take to fill a new group, or get accepted to somebody elses.

Blizzard gave us tools to avoid the nightmare that is pugging for those of us for who it is a nightmare...so yes, we're quite bitter they're trying to take that away from us.

They aren't though, are they.

LFR still exists for those people. You aren't able to access an artifact appearance, the same way you won't get the PvP appearances if you don't like or participate in PvP. End of story.

I don't expect I'll be rewarded the elite PvP set just because I do arena. If I aren't a 2200 rated player I don't get the 2200 rated rewards.

[Jtbrig7390]

Do you even understand how the game works right now? DKs, Wars and DHs all can pump out raw healing numbers rivaling healers and surpass them at times. It's self healing/absorbs, it has no effect on your healers. They aren't healing the raid.

Yep sure do and the healer shouldn't be getting massively out healed by the two tanks no matter the class. The top 3 healers was the other 3 heals then two tanks then him. The difference between him (a druid) and the two tanks was massive.

This wasn't a issue of "Tanks raw healing rivialing healers" it was a issue of our 4th healer doing jack shit. He even admitted as much.

- - - Updated - - -

Jtbrig is a top tier mongo, he isn't aware of anything outside ret paladin mechanics :kappa:

I remember doubling the healing of my healers on beta Xavius on my dk. Still took a metric fuckton of damage, though. Lol.

Yes I only give a fuck about my classes mechanics because I don't need to know how to heal as a druid when dpsing as a ret paladin. Show us your character and progression if you are just so awesome.

Oh way you won't and ur just here to troll in another one of my threads.

[Deleted]

Blizzard gave us tools to avoid the nightmare that is pugging for those of us for who it is a nightmare...so yes, we're quite bitter they're trying to take that away from us.

Nope, the tools were already there, it was as simple as do not even think about raiding.
Now there are even more tools, being them the existance of real alternative PVE end game content to raiding.
I am sorry but the LFR way you talk about, is as close as possible to watching a cinematic of any famous guild downing the boss, and then getting a chance for loot.
I do really understand people wanting to avoid pug/guild dramas and the likes, but i will never understand people wanting to raid the LFR way.

[Kidoeng7]

For as much sense as you're making it's pointless wasted on people who have already made up their mind about how they feel they should be given everything no matter how much less effort they feel like applying. This is the direct after effect of the "everybody gets a trophy!" mentality. It's also a bunch of people doing something brainlessly simple who feel even though their job likely overpays them for the "work" they do, that they should be entitled to a minimum wage increase.

It's a bunch of people raised on essentially communism where no matter what everyone should be the same because extra things for applying more effort hurts their feelings and is unfair. You literally can not have a higher difficulty award something over the LFR anymore without there being some backpeddling monkey pulling 70k dps in 850 gear who feels he's entitled to the same reward.

Well you are 100% right.

Next thread will be " i am sorry but not being able to buy the 2million gold mount just buy watching netflix is BS"
Because it is the same thing, if you dont invest time (farm or AH) you wont get the gold simple as not being able to get a certain artifact skin without doing at least normal.
Personally i am in a raiding guild (3 nights a week) even though my game time is prolly limited to just that but i can never complain that why i didnt get the special Tittle for killing Mythic Imperator, blackhand or Archimonde because i never was able to do that kind of raiding with my kind of time.

That said, doing a normal EN should be pretty easy. I believe every1 has at least 2-3 friends in this game (if not why the hell are u playing an mmo alone), gather your buddies invite a few randoms and happy raiding.

[Drilnos]

That artifact skin row gave every appearance of being the five man row. You shouldn't be able to do it via LFR. You shouldn't be able to do it in normal, heroic or mythic either. There should be no raid quest in that chain. At all. If they wanted a raid artifact skin, they should have made a raid artifact skin row. Lumping mythic dungeons in with organized raiding as they are both "non-queueable content" is completely asinine.

[Deleted]

Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

Nice shiny white armor you got there. The Maidens surely are flocking to you in herds?

It is a fucking skin, just one of many other skins. Most of the skins can be aquired with very little effort, time and skillwise, and mostly with solo play.

You don't have to handle one decline after the other.

It is just a game. Being declined is not the end of the world. You gotta ask more often than just one or two times, that is the nature of the beast. Grow some skin, dude.

[Jrealness]

Show me a video of 25 people afking in LFR and finishing it....

Some afking doesn't mean all can.

There was a screenshot back at the start of HFC LFR where one lone DK killed the loot reaver. No enrage timer in LFR so he could take all the time in the world. I don't remember if everyone else was dead or what but the dps meter had everyone else in the hundreds/low thousands (i.e. essentially dead, afk and/or just autoattacking). So yes, LFR = netflix.

[kary]

Yep sure do and the healer shouldn't be getting massively out healed by the two tanks no matter the class. The top 3 healers was the other 3 heals then two tanks then him. The difference between him (a druid) and the two tanks was massive.

This wasn't a issue of "Tanks raw healing rivialing healers" it was a issue of our 4th healer doing jack shit. He even admitted as much.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes I only give a fuck about my classes mechanics because I don't need to know how to heal as a druid when dpsing as a ret paladin. Show us your character and progression if you are just so awesome.

Oh way you won't and ur just here to troll in another one of my threads.

My chars are in my sig, always have been.
Cleared EN normal on beta with 835 scaling, cba about live atm, too busy getting vagina.
I'm not trolling, you have no idea of anything outside your little ret pally bubble. Every time you post something you remind people of exactly how ignorant you are to anything that isn't a ret paladin (and you're a mediocre at best ret too, which is the silly part)

[Yriel]

I guess this sort of attitude is why I see so many people running around without a guild.

WoW is a reflection of real life in that sense. Everyone is a lone wolf walking around with their heads in their phones, talking to no-one. I have to wonder why you play an MMO if you don't want to play with other people. Being in a guild is an integral part of an MMORPG.

Am I experiencing a generation gap in a game? Maybe I'm too old.

I actually do have a guild, it's a nice guild, i'm one of the founders and am in it since a month after vanilla launch. And right now we have 15-20 people playing every evening. We have a lively guild chat, had several RL meetings over the years, do dungeons every evening. And just about two people in the guild are interested in organized raiding so we don't have no raid group.
And still in the two years i didn't play during WoD i didn't really miss them because none of them is an actual friend, just someone reliable to play wow with.

Why i play an MMO ? Because i like the gameplay. Not because i hope to meet new friends. I have enough friends already.

10-15 years ago it was cool to meet people online. Today it isn't. Most games are multiplayer, people have all kinds of social media around them and hundreds of facebook friends they don't really know. The time for "its so awesome to meet new people online" time is over. You meet new people online all the time in almost every game, so many that you are not interested in 99.9% of them.
Most people play with a few of their close friends and are just not interested in meeting more, they just want to play a game.
Thats just how it is, mourning the good old times won't get you anywhere.

[Paulosio]

Its for an artifact skin. There are many skins and they are all unlocked in different ways. Is it reasonable for a normal / heroic raider such as myself to ge annoyed that I cant get the PVP artifact skins unlocked without PVP'ing because I cant be bothered to PVP? Some things have to be earned. If you cant be bothered to make a tiny bit of effort for something then you clearly arent that bothered about getting it and so I dont see how you can really get annoyed about it either.

[Zantera]

I agree it's weird. And no, normal is not "too hard", but something like the legendary cloak and the ring were possible to get through LFR, so it seems almost like a step backwards to change it.

[Deleted]

Whats the problem? Pug normal and get it. Normal is easy enough for anyone to go.
U dont get mythic gear transmogs from lfr and u dont get this transmog from lfr.
Lfr is the tool to see the bosses and the lore, at least thats what blizzard has said.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree it's weird. And no, normal is not "too hard", but something like the legendary cloak and the ring were possible to get through LFR, so it seems almost like a step backwards to change it.

Because the legendarys are useful and a must have if u wanted to raid hardcore.
I belive this TRANSMOG will not affect your dps

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I agree it's weird. And no, normal is not "too hard", but something like the legendary cloak and the ring were possible to get through LFR, so it seems almost like a step backwards to change it.

The difference is those things were significant player power increases designed around a whole expansions worth of participation. Almost a thank you for sticking around for all of MoP and WoD or at least investing enough time into it to get the items. This is a cosmetic reward designed around doing a particular form of content in the first patch of an expansion. So if anything its a a minor side step. But I also understand this is the internet. You disagree. So what else does anyone need then that to make a case of you right and I am wrong. I know. It's ok because Blizzard will likely change it anyway because like me they have trouble watching grown folk standing around with tears streaming down their face over pixels on the monitor. If it's merely for principle only. It is disgusting and sad and if making pixels drop in LFR stop it than thank god.

[Chemii]

I actually do have a guild, it's a nice guild, i'm one of the founders and am in it since a month after vanilla launch. And right now we have 15-20 people playing every evening. We have a lively guild chat, had several RL meetings over the years, do dungeons every evening. And just about two people in the guild are interested in organized raiding so we don't have no raid group.
And still in the two years i didn't play during WoD i didn't really miss them because none of them is an actual friend, just someone reliable to play wow with.

Why i play an MMO ? Because i like the gameplay. Not because i hope to meet new friends. I have enough friends already.

10-15 years ago it was cool to meet people online. Today it isn't. Most games are multiplayer, people have all kinds of social media around them and hundreds of facebook friends they don't really know. The time for "its so awesome to meet new people online" time is over. You meet new people online all the time in almost every game, so many that you are not interested in 99.9% of them.
Most people play with a few of their close friends and are just not interested in meeting more, they just want to play a game.
Thats just how it is, mourning the good old times won't get you anywhere.

You've never made any real friends with people you've played with and spoken to even once a week for 12 years? Sounds like a great guild

All you did was prove my point. The things you talk about are not a positive change, so I'm not sure why you would endorse it like it's something modern and progressive.

Playing with a consistent group of friends. Yes, organised play. That's the whole point of this. What are you argueing for again?

[Yriel]

You've never made any real friends with people you've played with and spoken to even once a week for 12 years? Sounds like a great guild

Actually, yes it is. But those are people i only know online. I play wow with them. That's it.
Where is the problem with that?
I think you and i define the word friend different.

All you did was prove my point. The things you talk about are not a positive change, so I'm not sure why you would endorse it like it's something modern and progressive.

Who are you to decide what is positive? Apparently people like it that way. And i never said it's modern and progressive, it's just how it is.

Playing with a consistent group of friends. Yes, organised play. That's the whole point of this. What are you argueing for again?

That groups of friends are rarely 10-25 people large. Most people probably play dungeons with friends, not raids.

[purebalance]

That's not what I said, I said there is no guarantee that you'll even down a boss let alone do the requirements in one night. This means you'll be forced to try for probably a few separate days to try and get a group for the bosses you need. It's not really something I care to spend the time doing when I only have so many hours in the day to actually do what I want. I just want to finish the quest without a hassle because I've already finished the other parts. I am totally fine with raiders even getting their own skin but gating a quest behind a raid when none of the other tints require a raid seems kind of poorly thought out. PvP got it's own skin, raiders should have to, instead of making the one raid specific tint tied in with a quest like that's not so subtely just trying to get more people into raiding.



Did that for many years and wasted a lot of time on it, rather not have to deal with it anymore.

You implied not downing the boss in that night was a bad thing and your rant still implied that. You tried to somehow tie in the PVP skin without even knowing exactly how long that pvp skin takes to acquire. If they wanted to have you clear LFR a thousand times to get the skin, I would be fine considering a bad pvper(LFR is in fact bad players or lazy players considering other alternatives are there regardless of how much time you can invest) can get a PVP appearance in about a year.

I'm sorry, but sometimes things require effort and work and not everything works out immediately. But hey, let's just apply the whole millennial mindset to every facet of life and see how hard people come crashing down in the real world where everything isn't handed to us.

[Deleted]

Nope, the tools were already there, it was as simple as do not even think about raiding.
Now there are even more tools, being them the existance of real alternative PVE end game content to raiding.
I am sorry but the LFR way you talk about, is as close as possible to watching a cinematic of any famous guild downing the boss, and then getting a chance for loot.
I do really understand people wanting to avoid pug/guild dramas and the likes, but i will never understand people wanting to raid the LFR way.

It's simple - LFR is impartial. People are biased.

I had much more chances to get a group back in TBC and WotLK, before the introduction of gearscore. I don't think that it had anything to do with my server reputation, if anything, my guild reputation could have mattered a bit, since I was in a raid guild back then - a guild which has totally destroyed my desire to participate in any other raiding guild whatsoever.

I would get all declines if they would be "first come, first served", but I don't think that this is the way in which people select. If I would see that the group already has 2 cloth DDs, I would probably not even apply with my mage, but I don't see this and most groups don't give any information besides required item level and role. And if such things are handled that technocratically, then please let the machine decide.

- - - Updated - - -

You implied not downing the boss in that night was a bad thing and your rant still implied that. You tried to somehow tie in the PVP skin without even knowing exactly how long that pvp skin takes to acquire. If they wanted to have you clear LFR a thousand times to get the skin, I would be fine considering a bad pvper(LFR is in fact bad players or lazy players considering other alternatives are there regardless of how much time you can invest) can get a PVP appearance in about a year.

I'm sorry, but sometimes things require effort and work and not everything works out immediately. But hey, let's just apply the whole millennial mindset to every facet of life and see how hard people come crashing down in the real world where everything isn't handed to us.

I know that I am bad in PvP and that I will never get the skin, no matter how much time I will invest. I don't have the PvP mindset. But I don't understand why they need to gate this specific skin in this way. If the skin was gated by running a heroic raid, then I would understand. But the setting of normal instead of LFR looks to me like griefing. Is raid participation that bad that they have to resort to such cheap tricks?

[caervek]

It is a fucking skin, just one of many other skins.

Actually it's four (as it's the unlock skin for that row), hence a lot of the complaints as the normal+ raid requirement is blocking the ones with lesser requirement.