Re-evaluating MM vs BM

[bouchbagfett]

Going into the expansion and even Mythic+ the general consensus was that MM was the choice for raiding and that BM would be the best for Mythic+. We are now into Mythic+ and raiding and logs show a clear gap from MM and BM in both Mythic+ and Raiding. The raiding dps gap isn't even close. It is obvious in Emerald Nightmare that MM is mechanically and numerically superior.

Raids (heroic): https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#difficulty=4
Mythic+ (level 7): https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...dps&keystone=7

So my question is why BM at all? I am a filthy casual now due to RL commitments but I still have a desire to play the best I can and be the most DPS that is possible for my time in raids and mythic+. I am not interested in "most fun, do what you like" play goals. I picked BM because raiding was going to be secondary to my primary focus of Mythic+ progression. But looks like I didn't choose correctly for either my main goal and secondary goal. Even if BM is within 5% of MM in Mythic+ when I do raid, MM just destroys BM. Just look at the top parses. It ain't close.

So to add to my question, is the gap due mostly to the best players are mythic raiders and thus going MM and they have the most gear/AP/skill and therefore are just running Mythic+ as MM instead of a half-assed 13-BM with crap relics? Or is it that MM really is better. The flip on that is, if the top MM players had top end BM artifact progression and relics in raids how much higher would the BM parses be than they are now? Seems to me the gap is just too big for it to be crossed with skill alone, but would it be close?

Do I cut my losses with BM and switch focus to MM for raids and Mythic+ or stick with BM and hope that they truly are superior for Mythic+ and live with the enormous raiding DPS gap to MM?

[Azortharion]

Almost everyone with half a brain was saying to go MM for raiding pre-release. If you went BM despite all that, there's really nothing to say except "I told you so".

Mythic+ is a more fickle beast, it usually depends on affixes. Being able to pet-taunt off the tank on Necrotic to let your tank reset their stacks is a boon, as well as saving them from melees that would otherwise kill them due to Raging. Whenever Bolstering is a thing, you'd want MM for the boss damage. Skittish and Teeming you want BM for trash damage, same with Fortified probably, but even that depends on the dungeon.

[bouchbagfett]

I never doubted MM was the best raiding spec. I guess I hoped for a closer gap in raiding and a clear winner in Mythic+. I guess I was mostly wondering if the Mythic+ gap is purely a player skill/gearing gap because the best players are playing MM due to raids.

[GreenWins]

You're most likely safe staying BM. Right now the only real viable raid spec is MM. There is zero chance in this expansion that Blizzard will keep only one viable hunter spec. Things will continue to improve for BM and survival. That's the good thing about being the "bottom" spec. Also like Azortharion said BM has variety of benefits in mythic+ that makes a good hunter vs a bad hunter very apparent.

[Vankrys]

It isn't hard to imagine that there is a bit of a confirmation bias.

Players looking for performance, looking for the best raiding spec, the kind of players that dig up informations on the internet, follow the developement of their class on beta and PTR, naturally will tend to choose the best performing spec, learn it and play it to a great if not max potential.

Simulation as well as early testing on beta have given the edge to MM, and thus players looking for performance orbited towards that spec. Only players that chose BM are those for who max performance is not the main focus, and either because they despise MM or have a lore preference of hunters with pet. Those players tend to perform lesser IN AVERAGE.

I suspect the gap seen between MM and BM wouldn't be that wide if the spec choice would have been blind, like a pharmaceuticals companies make blind clinical trials for their new drugs. In this case, the most informed, the most performance driven player chose MM, which give MM an even greater edge on the statistics.

In this expansion, if you want to be a cuting edge PVE player, you invest most if not all your AP in one spec. Some thinks it's a major flaw of the artifact system, but nevertheless, that is reality. That would explain why players that have invested so much in their MM artifact, carry them into M+ dungeons.

I would suggest, since the flexible tag of normal/heroic permits it, to make two clear of EN, one with each spec. Compare the feel you have for the gameplay, the ease and pleasure to play the class, compare also the number you get (and not others) with both spec, and then, make a decision.

[Skul]

It is pretty hard to sim the viability of BM vs MM in Mythic+ because it operates completely different than a raid situation. You do not look at pure DPS output. You look at burst DPS output, cleave with a primary target, interrupts, stuns, pet tricks mentioned above by Azor, and other metrics that no sims or logs will show you.

BM is very viable for Mythic+ simply because of stampede's huge AOE burst and the large pack cheese it can help you pull off. Let alone pet taunting / always having lust or BR on demand, etc.

[Dahkeus]

It isn't hard to imagine that there is a bit of a confirmation bias.

Players looking for performance, looking for the best raiding spec, the kind of players that dig up informations on the internet, follow the developement of their class on beta and PTR, naturally will tend to choose the best performing spec, learn it and play it to a great if not max potential.

Simulation as well as early testing on beta have given the edge to MM, and thus players looking for performance orbited towards that spec. Only players that chose BM are those for who max performance is not the main focus, and either because they despise MM or have a lore preference of hunters with pet. Those players tend to perform lesser IN AVERAGE.

I suspect the gap seen between MM and BM wouldn't be that wide if the spec choice would have been blind, like a pharmaceuticals companies make blind clinical trials for their new drugs. In this case, the most informed, the most performance driven player chose MM, which give MM an even greater edge on the statistics.

In this expansion, if you want to be a cuting edge PVE player, you invest most if not all your AP in one spec. Some thinks it's a major flaw of the artifact system, but nevertheless, that is reality. That would explain why players that have invested so much in their MM artifact, carry them into M+ dungeons.

I would suggest, since the flexible tag of normal/heroic permits it, to make two clear of EN, one with each spec. Compare the feel you have for the gameplay, the ease and pleasure to play the class, compare also the number you get (and not others) with both spec, and then, make a decision.

I definitely suspect that's the case for a lot of specs out there (such as Fury vs Arms), but I'm a bit more skeptical on how much of that bias would be in BM vs Arms primarily because of how easy and forgiving the BM rotation is to pull off. I'm sure you still are more likely to have better geared MM players in raids since the people who choose a spec almost entirely based on which is most effective are also more likely to min/max every detail of their gear, but I don't know that this would add up to be much of a difference.

Also, this only applies when looking at raid logs based on performance. When you compare the specs with sims, this isn't a factor at all.

[Echion]

I think things will be closer when BM has 26 points in artifact and gains that 20k dps or whatever it is. Obviously fights like il'gynoth, Cenarius, Xavius, and Dragons will always prefer MM and even most ST fights with good procs; but the gap between the two will tighten up in another two weeks IMO.

[Effinhunter]

As I've said since way before the expansion hit, MM was going to wipe the floor with BM in Mythic+, especially the higher affixes, with any kind of competent hunter. I've been running with BM hunters in Mythic+ who have legendaries and better gear, and it hasn't even been a competition. They have to switch to MM if they want to compete. I've offered to run with others, given out my bnet handle, and I've had a few takers. I have never lost to a BM hunter, especially not on big trash packs. I have guaranteed MarkS procs on pull, and even if I don't, it comes up pretty frequently. Stampede is only reasonable burst if the entire pack stays at the center of the line pet pathing for the entire duration, and that's pretty rare, especially with large packs and how they jostle for position around the tank. The argument that BM 13 traits is any way equivalent, much less better, than MM 20 traits is based on sustained AoE sims (not in game performance), which as I've been saying for months is not the case in Mythic+.

SW/MarkS is way too much burst, and Barrage is just icing on the cake. If you go Crows, you're still going to beat BM hunters if they blow Stamp and you blow TS. Further, BM hunters have been pulling more shit with Stampede than I ever did with SW or Barrage, and it's usage means the tank cannot move adds for the duration (this is actually a problem with the Sanguine affix American servers have this week, if an add dies and drops a puddle during your Stampede call). Mostly because playing BM makes you pretty lazy at learning the instances before you go into Mythic+. This pervasive argument from people on this forum that "MM hunters are idiots" is just an extension of the "hunters are idiots" meme that has been around since Vanilla. If you're running with an idiot, it doesn't matter what spec or even what class he is playing. He's going to pull the whole damned room because he's an idiot. And if a MM hunter is telling you to move away from the drakes in HoV or away from the birds in Maw, then as a tank, listen and do your job because they're probably trying to help the group and not just make your job harder. That MM hunter is going to be worth his weight in gold in terms of dps, especially in add packs, if you can just learn how to use him well. And if you want to do Mythic 8-10, then you should understand the capabilities of your group.

MM forces you to completely learn the instance. If you played MM through heroic dungeons and initial mythic, you know exactly how SW works (which can be far worse than Barrage imo in Mythic+ settings) and how distance to target changes the path that SW takes (it makes a wider arc at farther distance, which is where people tend to mess this up). You should know which angles to pull each trash pack, if not at least a general understanding of how SW can pull. Further, MM actually has lots of ways for you to reduce your big 3 minute cd to make it more quickly available in Mythic+, while BM has no such thing for its big cd (Stampede). MM, you have up to 30s reduction on TS through artifact, and you have the legendary boots. Very soon, MM is going to see their TS reduced into the 1.5 minute range. Add in what we're supposedly going to have on our Nighthold tier sets (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=211331/...nship-2p-bonus), you're going to start seeing people with TS at less than 1 minute CDs. Sims were showing this at 55s with everything, though trusting the sims about tier bonuses right now is a fool's errand. Even if at just 1.5m or 2m, TS will be up more often in the instance at a 2:1 or 3:2 ratio.

If you want to run BM because you're scared to death of aggroing some birds on Maw, fine. Use that as your rationalization. But don't make it about damage. That is not bearing out and in staggered add sims, it literally never was true. And MM looks like it's going to be scaling upwards thanks to TS reductions. I use TS on CD in Mythic+. It's actually an extremely strong CD if you hold it for the last 20% of boss health because Bullseye amplifies the CD with more crit % (Rapid Killing in your artifact increases the crit damage while in TS). So, using it on add packs and having it come up for Bullseye, is actually very strong. Whereas with Stampede, it's fixed at 3m, and most hunters try to save it for boss with all of their other CDs, so they don't look like they are competing with the healer or tank on single target.

- - - Updated - - -

I think things will be closer when BM has 26 points in artifact and gains that 20k dps or whatever it is. Obviously fights like il'gynoth, Cenarius, Xavius, and Dragons will always prefer MM and even most ST fights with good procs; but the gap between the two will tighten up in another two weeks IMO.

There are very few people going full BM artifact right now. Most are going for 28 MM and filling up the BM artifact as they go (13-18 range). I guess if you go full BM, you probably would be reasonably competitive in Mythic+, if that's all you're really wanting to do. But the argument I've seen on these forums has been that BM at even 13 traits beats MM in Mythic+, which is not something I've ever seen happen in the game.

[Geran]

Have people thought that the logs are a little deviated?
We have been reading, and hearing that MM is the spec to go for raiding, so how many of those people (high end raiders) have been going to bm?
People in BM raiding, have the same ilvl than the MM ones? Do they have the same AP (number of perks)? do these perks have the same distribution of damage or combat utility?

Can you really compare if people are using same tactics? raid distribution? group classes? in those logs?

I'm not saying that one spec or the other is superior (sim craft already established that), just saying the comparison is not done in equal ground, (just take the number of parses of every spec: MM 57,972 BM 16,660 SV 1,143)

[Optimus Primate]

Mostly because playing BM makes you pretty lazy at learning the instances before you go into Mythic+. This pervasive argument from people on this forum that "MM hunters are idiots" is just an extension of the "hunters are idiots" meme that has been around since Vanilla.

You are just perpetuating that meme from inside the community with dog-shit generalised statements like this... As is most of the community with blanket absolutes comparing MM and BM.

I play BM. I min-max to the best of my ability. I learn every mechanic in detail for the encounters I take part in and "playing BM makes you pretty lazy at learning the instances before you go into Mythic+" is simply not true. I could well be the exception to the rule but I very much doubt it.

And as yet, I have only been beaten by a single MM Hunter in the M+ dungeons I have run (Up to level 7 atm). Admittedly, MM could well be stronger M+ 7-10, but I wouldn't know yet. MM is without doubt stronger on the majority of EN HC bosses, but depending on luck, is arguably harder to execute to perfection, allowing BM to maintain a certain degree of competition.

I think the likelihood is that you've played alongside hunters to which have you more skill than. Which makes this a players vs player comparison, not simply a BM vs MM one.

[Darkynhalvos]

Would have been great to not be forced into marks for yet another expansion. BM hasn; been viable for more than a patch here and there since BC. Absolute bullshit.

[tyrindor]

BM vs MM is very close single target after you get BM to rank 26. With both artifacts maxed, both specs are very close and viable in all situations. Sure, some are better at certain things but that's always been the case.

Just keep going with BM. Blizzard stated they aren't even done tuning, so after the first week of mythics I am sure there will be further adjustments.

There are very few people going full BM artifact right now. Most are going for 28 MM and filling up the BM artifact as they go (13-18 range). I guess if you go full BM, you probably would be reasonably competitive in Mythic+, if that's all you're really wanting to do. But the argument I've seen on these forums has been that BM at even 13 traits beats MM in Mythic+, which is not something I've ever seen happen in the game.

Full BM here. Still doing fine, still competitive DPS in Mythic+ and Raids. Still haven't got Rank 26 which will be a significant boost, while MM doesn't have another "big boost".

The only reason MM was the "way to go" was because it peaks faster, with BM you really need to wait until rank 26. After that, both specs are great but there's going to be people here that tell you otherwise.

[Echion]

I think the likelihood is that you've played alongside hunters to which have you more skill than. Which makes this a players vs player comparison, not simply a BM vs MM one.

Disregarding players, MM should still beat BM in theory according to sims in normal situations. Most high M+ you're not pulling more than 3 mobs unless your tank is crazy like ours. I play BM for that reason (and I'm lazy). If you were smart, most people went 20MM then 18 BM. After that it's a personal choice.

BM will not be better than MM on less than 6 targets till 26 traits and that's still pretty far away for me (22-23 right now after going 20 in MM).

[tyrindor]

Disregarding players, MM should still beat BM in theory according to sims in normal situations. Most high M+ you're not pulling more than 3 mobs unless your tank is crazy like ours. I play BM for that reason (and I'm lazy). If you were smart, most people went 20MM then 18 BM. After that it's a personal choice.

BM will not be better than MM on less than 6 targets till 26 traits and that's still pretty far away for me (22-23 right now after going 20 in MM).

Rank 26 is not that far away. AK starts drastically ramping up after Rank 5. People are getting Rank 6 today and in less than 2 weeks, we'll be at 600% while we're only at 200% now. This whole argument will finally be moot and people can go with whatever spec they prefer.

[ejpaints]

Bear in mind most BM hunters also don't have their 3rd gold trait yet which is where the single target damage will go up. MM had that front loaded better. Factor that with the difference in number of players playing the specs & the #'s are going to be skewed. For the average player the difference isn't going to be remotely as large as people make it out to be. Top end raider sure it'll matter, but far too many people act like they fall into that category when they don't & likely never will.

[adamaj]

Would have been great to not be forced into marks for yet another expansion. BM hasn; been viable for more than a patch here and there since BC. Absolute bullshit.

BM gets the cool pets, you don't get the best dps too! :P

[Optimus Primate]

Disregarding players, MM should still beat BM in theory according to sims in normal situations. Most high M+ you're not pulling more than 3 mobs unless your tank is crazy like ours. I play BM for that reason (and I'm lazy). If you were smart, most people went 20MM then 18 BM. After that it's a personal choice.

BM will not be better than MM on less than 6 targets till 26 traits and that's still pretty far away for me (22-23 right now after going 20 in MM).

"In theory", therein lies the problem. So far the theory craft we've had hasn't been a true reflection of real raid performance. That is not to suggest it does not indicate which classes have the highest potential, but that alone is not enough to acertain the "best DPS" class, there are simply too many variables.

[Darkynhalvos]

BM gets the cool pets, you don't get the best dps too! :P

But maximixing BM for raiding means you use one of what, 3 pets? Core hound for hero/lust, quilen for battle rez, and maybe spirit beast for a tiny bit of extra heals.

Not asking for the best dps for BM, only want to see it be a choice right alongside marks.

Edit: Forgot to add that my pet is the deeps monster not me :P

[grm22]

AK starts drastically ramping up after Rank 5.

Sorry for asking, but what is "AK" ?

- - - Updated - - -

Bear in mind most BM hunters also don't have their 3rd gold trait yet which is where the single target damage will go up. MM had that front loaded better. Factor that with the difference in number of players playing the specs & the #'s are going to be skewed. For the average player the difference isn't going to be remotely as large as people make it out to be. Top end raider sure it'll matter, but far too many people act like they fall into that category when they don't & likely never will.

As i see from logs, Titan's Thunder did 5.48% dmg on Ursoc mythic kill (check Arriussz on warcraftlogs, cant post here).