Warlock Buffs arent enought!!

[Onizuka]

If you are a good warlock player, these buffs are more than enough. If you can't do it, then reconsider playing an easier class or spend some proper time investment into learning what you are doing wrong.

Warlock isn't suppose to be an easy class, it's just you MoP boys that still havn't caught up with the idea of balance.

I think you are kinda harsh on your comment.
It's not that 2.6% of overall population has chosen this class for it's fluidity and easiness, but still, we need some fine tuning in 2/3 specs.

[Jessicka]

Easy!
Then dont play it.
I enjoy the new demo and im quite skilled at it but that by itself doesn't mean everyone is enjoying it or skilled. Go play another class if you loathe the new warlock so much. You're not being forced to do anything. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling to to play demo or any other spec/class.

WoW constantly changes, learn to adapt to the change.

Yeah, there's a thing about investing 8, 9, 10 years in something, then it suddenly changing under you for no real reason other than whims of a design team. I think people, particularly those who played Demo and enjoyed it have every right to be upset about the changes.

As for being 'forced', people do kind of make commitments to guilds that they're going to play X class or whatever so RLs can plan for recruitment and stuff. That creates an obligation in itself; not that there's any special reason why you'd take a Warlock, but there might have been.

After that, the process of rerolling is probably bigger than at any time I can remember, with AP and Legendaries to consider on the way to catching up; amongst all the usual crap like reps, halls progress, levelling and gearing process etc.

As a class, Warlocks have endured more changes than any; I don't think you can accuse anyone who's been playing it for any length of time of not having learned to live with it; it's a matter of reaching a threshold you're no longer happy with.

[Baconeggcheese]

spend some proper time investment into learning what you are doing wrong.

In fairness, the info / resources available to locks pales in comparison to what other classes get. If you don't already have a decent understanding of the class you'll probably have a hard time.

My guildy was talking about how he was looking up info for his alt mage and learned more in 5 minutes than he's learned about locks in months.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, there's a thing about investing 8, 9, 10 years in something, then it suddenly changing under you

That's hard to imagine considering we see fairly significant overhauls basically every xpac. The class 2 years ago played significantly different vs 4 years ago vs 6 years ago etc etc. Hardly seems like 8-10 years and then all of a sudden there was change.

Maybe if one played 8-10 years ago, quit the game, and just came back.

[Kithelle]

You're a DK. Frost is a spec. Takes 10 seconds to change spec. Takes days if not weeks to change class. "Aaaah but artifact poweeerrrr" yeah well guess what you have to grind again if you change class.

Well people seem to think Demo and Destruction are fine...so I guess there was no need for this useless thread, just like your jerk-like post.

[Jessicka]

That's hard to imagine considering we see fairly significant overhauls basically every xpac. The class 2 years ago played significantly different vs 4 years ago vs 6 years ago etc etc. Hardly seems like 8-10 years and then all of a sudden there was change.

Maybe if one played 8-10 years ago, quit the game, and just came back.

It's like you didn't even get the end of my post before hitting reply.

[Baconeggcheese]

It's like you didn't even get the end of my post before hitting reply.

I chose to address the part where you said there was an abrupt change after 8-10 years instead of the part where you contradicted yourself and said that the class has changed more than any other and that people are accustomed to dealing with it.

I don't really get what I'm supposed to get from that that would stop me from posting what I posted, or what you're expecting to get 2-3 years into complaining that you no longer enjoy the class due to changes.

[Deleted]

See this post?
This is what's wrong with the community.
"ofc you assume you are better player" "class that is underpopulated"
How do you argue with shit like this? How do you argue with a person that comes to the forums to complain about complaining , and does absolutely nothing to back up these claims. Nothing! You could think that he has the upper hand, because it "sounds" legit, right?

Firstly i dont come to the forums to complain about complaining. If you check my post history you would see i am more intrested in other more informative stuff. It just blows my mind that the next day after getting some buffs ppl are so eager to whine again.

Here we go again: how do you define underpopulated? I don't think this is the case here. Maybe I can accept that you think 2949 vs 3446 is underpopulated, but what is the difference?

If there are ~150 better parses than mine, and 2800 that is worse, am I a better player? How do you define "better"?
Currently, better equals bigger numbers. I don't think that this is the best approach, because priority add damage, and just not dying to avoidable mechanics is a lot more important, but warcraftlogs.com currently is not too helpful at those.

I agree about your best approach comment, but you were talking about numbers and percentile. Ok here's a simple example, since you want me to back this up
Lets say we have class A and class B which are balanced. And lets say that encounters doesnt favor either class. In that case of absolute balance, having a mix of equally skilled players, the top #1 - #20 of class A should be doing exactly the same dmg as top #1 - #20 of class B .

Now lets say you are playing class A and you are #5 (warlock) . That means you do the same dps as #5 of class B . Now in the upcoming expansion class B outperforms class A (because of encounters or just raw numbers). The #1 of class A doesnt care and he wont switch, but the #2, #3, #4 say "fuck it i am gonna play class B cause better numbers".

So after the expansion launches you are #2 in class A. The previous #5 of class B who was equally skilled with you now will become #8 since the ones that rerolled are more skilled than him. Class A becomes underpopulated compared to class B and the percentile of the equally skilled ppl in each class becomes different. Add to that, that usually the top players are the ones who really care about good numbers and most likely are gonna switch...

Lastly since we have artifact progression the players that rerolled to class B wont go back to class A, even if both classes come to equal terms with number adjustments. So for class A to look equal with class B on statistics (warcraftlogs) has to actually get overbuffed, since after the reroll the #X of class A is less skilled then #X of class B. If you expand this to the population that is playing wow the differences become huge.

And finally, I am thankful for your words: "rerolling from locks"
This alone backs up the facts that warlocks WERE in a very bad spot, because really competitive players rerolled.

There were people in these forums who defended the state of warlocks like there's no tomorrow, absolutely ignoring the facts. And this happening over again, because the buffs were not enough, simple as that.

It doesnt take a class to be in a VERY bad spot for really competitive players to reroll. Even small differences matter to them when they are racing for world first, or region first. Also the community has the trend to copy the actions of the really competitive players because "they know better". Its like a domino. The people you are saying in these forums werent defending like no tomorrow that locks are fine, they were saying that locks arent trash and as bad as many were saying. And they needed some numbers adjustments isntead of an overhaul.

[Jessicka]

I chose to address the part where you said there was an abrupt change after 8-10 years instead of the part where you contradicted yourself and said that the class has changed more than any other and that people are accustomed to dealing with it.

I don't really get what I'm supposed to get from that that would stop me from posting what I posted, or what you're expecting to get 2-3 years into complaining that you no longer enjoy the class due to changes.

So you chose to cherry pick a sentence just so you could belch out a reply, any reply, rather than appreciate that there's nuance to individual and incremental changes that occur over a number of years? And that ultimately the culmination of changes could set design on a path the player wasn't originally interested in heading down?

Even the changes to Demo in MoP - which I can recall discussing with Xelnath my concerns about it being too much - pale in comparison to the path the spec is now on. By contrast, Affliction hasn't actually changed at its base much in years; it's why I was willing to give it a chance. Blizzard clearly have other plans for it.

I thought you'd started to be civilised. But I guess back to ignore with you.

[Deleted]

I think you are kinda harsh on your comment.
It's not that 2.6% of overall population has chosen this class for it's fluidity and easiness, but still, we need some fine tuning in 2/3 specs.

I don't see any need to improve any specc other than maybe affliction. Demo and Destro are fine as they are.

- - - Updated - - -

In fairness, the info / resources available to locks pales in comparison to what other classes get. If you don't already have a decent understanding of the class you'll probably have a hard time.

My guildy was talking about how he was looking up info for his alt mage and learned more in 5 minutes than he's learned about locks in months.

I spent roughly a couple of hours after my first raiding night looking at what other people had done and what had been succesfull. Then I practiced those changes untill the next raid in mythic dungeons. When the next raid came I was almost toping the meter on all fights. In fact I was toping Il'gynoth as Demo.
Now when I got my Warlock buffs I'm really interessted to see where I will end up in todays raid.

There is plenty of info, you just need, like I say, put effort and time into it. It's not an easy class, and if you don't want to put in the effort go play hunter or something.

[Deleted]

Doing a little bit more Single Target Match.

Nythendra Heroic :

Best Demo - 359K dps
Best Destro - 316K dps
Best Affliction - 285K dps

Retribution - 445K (24 % higher than Demonolgy, 41 % higher than Destruction, 56 % higher than Affliction)
Arms Warrior - 412K (15 % higher than Demonology, 30 % higher than Destruction, 44 % higher than Affliction)
Enhance Shaman - 408K (13 % higher than Demonolgy, 29 % higher than Destruction, 43 % higher than Affliction)
Rogue - 404K (12 % higher than Demonolgy, 27% higher than Destruction, 41 % higher than Affliction)
Arcane Mage - 385K (7 % higher than Demonology, 21 % higher than Destruction, 35 % higher than Affliction)
Feral Druid - 384K (7 % higher than Demonology, 21 % higher than Destruction, 35 % higher than Affliction)
Shadow Priest - 383K (~7 % higher than Demonolgy, 21 % higher than Destruction, 34 % higher than Affliction)
Monk - 370K (3 % higher than Demonology, 17 % higher than Destruction, 29% higher than Affliction)
Fire Mage - 370K (3 % higher than Demonology, 17 % higher than Destruction, 29 % higher than Affliction)
Demon Hunter - 362 ( ~ 1 % higher than Demonology, 14 % higher than Destruction, 26 % higher than Affliction)
MM hunter - 361K (~1 % higher than Demonology, 14 % higher than Destruction, 26 % higher than Affliction)

The very important thing to take away from this is that there are 11 classes beside warlock in this game and out of those 11 classes 10 have better single target damage than Warlock. The only class that has compareable damage is Death Knight.
The bottom 4 worst DPS classes are :

- Demon Hunter
- Hunter
- Warlock
- Death Knight

Remember this is just for ST fights so keep the discussion about single target. Keep it civil and objective. No raging, no whining, no insulting.
Keep it to the data, numbers, statistics and not to subjective feelings.
Also please don't cherry pick single logs from where 1 warlock does perform well in a group of average players. This is not helpful

PS : You get the same results if you take the top 5 or top 10 and divide it to get the average dps and compare it to other classes average. It doesn't matter much.

Thanks

[Extremities]

Are these "spell changes" that are now on the PTR as of yesterday more buffs? I sure as shit hope so. 850 ilvl and I'm hardly able
To break/sustain 200k+dps, while other classes break it easily and quickly, meanwhile we have to work our ass off to get there with hardly any reward

[Jessicka]

Are these "spell changes" that are now on the PTR as of yesterday more buffs? I sure as shit hope so. 850 ilvl and I'm hardly able
To break/sustain 200k+dps, while other classes break it easily and quickly, meanwhile we have to work our ass off to get there with hardly any reward

No, they're tooltip fixes to cover the recent hotfixes.

[Extremities]

Doing a little bit more Single Target Match.

Nythendra Heroic :

Best Demo - 359K dps
Best Destro - 316K dps
Best Affliction - 285K dps

Retribution - 445K (24 % higher than Demonolgy, 41 % higher than Destruction, 56 % higher than Affliction)
Arms Warrior - 412K (15 % higher than Demonology, 30 % higher than Destruction, 44 % higher than Affliction)
Enhance Shaman - 408K (13 % higher than Demonolgy, 29 % higher than Destruction, 43 % higher than Affliction)
Rogue - 404K (12 % higher than Demonolgy, 27% higher than Destruction, 41 % higher than Affliction)
Arcane Mage - 385K (7 % higher than Demonology, 21 % higher than Destruction, 35 % higher than Affliction)
Feral Druid - 384K (7 % higher than Demonology, 21 % higher than Destruction, 35 % higher than Affliction)
Shadow Priest - 383K (~7 % higher than Demonolgy, 21 % higher than Destruction, 34 % higher than Affliction)
Monk - 370K (3 % higher than Demonology, 17 % higher than Destruction, 29% higher than Affliction)
Fire Mage - 370K (3 % higher than Demonology, 17 % higher than Destruction, 29 % higher than Affliction)
Demon Hunter - 362 ( ~ 1 % higher than Demonology, 14 % higher than Destruction, 26 % higher than Affliction)
MM hunter - 361K (~1 % higher than Demonology, 14 % higher than Destruction, 26 % higher than Affliction)

The very important thing to take away from this is that there are 11 classes beside warlock in this game and out of those 11 classes 10 have better single target damage than Warlock. The only class that has compareable damage is Death Knight.
The bottom 4 worst DPS classes are :

- Demon Hunter
- Hunter
- Warlock
- Death Knight

Remember this is just for ST fights so keep the discussion about single target. Keep it civil and objective. No raging, no whining, no insulting.
Keep it to the data, numbers, statistics and not to subjective feelings.
Also please don't cherry pick single logs from where 1 warlock does perform well in a group of average players. This is not helpful

PS : You get the same results if you take the top 5 or top 10 and divide it to get the average dps and compare it to other classes average. It doesn't matter much.

Thanks

Your comment on Hunters being bottom 4 dps classes I think is relevant to your guys' raid, skill of players is not how it is for others. My raid, our hunters are at the top with enhance shammies. By a good chunk too

[Deleted]

Your comment on Hunters being bottom 4 dps classes I think is relevant to your guys' raid, skill of players is not how it is for others. My raid, our hunters are at the top with enhance shammies. By a good chunk too

I based my statement on official logs, real world numbers of many people. You are cherry picking your raid and making a subjective statement to counter my facts that are based on actual data. Well Done !

All the numbers I posted are from 28. September onward. So they are WITH the new balance changes that came with this weeks maintenance.

[Extremities]

I based my statement on official logs, real world numbers of many people. You are cherry picking your raid and making a subjective statement to counter my facts that are based on actual data. Well Done !

All the numbers I posted are from 28. September onward. So they are WITH the new balance changes that came with this weeks maintenance.

Sorry dude but not every raid is going to have the same dps numbers. Some raids will have Classes higher than others so your "official logs" are also "subjective" because like I said, not every raid will be the same in terms of numbers. I don't get why people put so much stock in logs. They aren't always correct. And I'm not "cherry picking" my raid. I've seen many raids where hunters are at the top, DH at the top and others where they are middle of the pack. You can't put such stock in logs because every raid is different, especially skill of the player. We can agree to disagree which is fine.

[Baconeggcheese]

So you chose to cherry pick a sentence just so you could belch out a reply, any reply, rather than appreciate that there's nuance to individual and incremental changes that occur over a number of years? And that ultimately the culmination of changes could set design on a path the player wasn't originally interested in heading down?

I mostly just chose to call out BS, there hasn't been this level of nuance you speak of. There's been fairly hefty and radical changes every xpac (or even in patches), yeah its not on the level of a complete design overhaul of every spec in the game from the ground up, but its been far beyond the realm of nuance.

Again, I'm not sure what you expect to get out of complaining about the class design for 2-3 years now. You've literally been doing this since the end of mop, that's some serious dedication to something you've repeatedly claimed you no longer enjoy.

Even the changes to Demo in MoP - which I can recall discussing with Xelnath my concerns about it being too much - pale in comparison to the path the spec is now on.

Well of course, they overhauled every spec in the game to weed out massive design flaws they've baked in over the years. It's fairly unprecedented for any mmo to receive this much change to the class design all at one time. But again that's the game, not unique to the class. We're not the only ones experiencing it, the entire game is.

I thought you'd started to be civilised. But I guess back to ignore with you.

And I'm still waiting for constructive / objective jess to show back up one of these days.

How are you okay with this?

Because I'm pulling 270-280k on that fight as destro consistently without a legendary. So when I see statistics of people pulling 240k, I know better.

The only warlocks who claim warlocks are fine are those who are playing in shitty guilds where everyone else is underperforming. Well, sorry, but I'm in a guild where most people score within the 80-100th percentile on their logs and we warlocks are far at the bottom even when we do our best to reach 250k DPS on bosses such as Nythendra.

I'm in reckoning, we placed us 7th world 34th last tier. We've been us top 10 for the last 2 xpacs on what's considered a fairly casual schedule and lax requirements for our rank. I guess my guilds shitty and filled with grey parsers because for some magical reason I'm not having a problem keeping up.

There is plenty of info, you just need, like I say, put effort and time into it.

Which was entirely my point, you don't need to put in that time and effort on other classes because the info is readily available because someone else has already done the work. Where for us locks, you need to do your own research.

[Zzyzz]

Don't bother replying. It's the last time I spend time reading your posts.

Finally, someone gets it.

People are spending way too much time trying to argue with that moron.

- - - Updated - - -

I thought you'd started to be civilised. But I guess back to ignore with you.

Really? What on earth prompted you to take him off ignore?

[Jondar]

Here's a couple openers on Mythic Nyth with the boss around 20%

(two separate pulls)





Destro ST falls off quite a bit when you have to deal with mechanics and have a harder time keeping up optimal Roaring Blaze immolates and Eradication, but the opener is pretty nice even if you have to deal with a rot.

- - - Updated - - -

The only warlocks who claim warlocks are fine are those who are playing in shitty guilds where everyone else is underperforming. Well, sorry, but I'm in a guild where most people score within the 80-100th percentile on their logs and we warlocks are far at the bottom even when we do our best to reach 250k DPS on bosses such as Nythendra.

Just so hilariously not true.

[Soluna]

CB isn't a filler. You're talking about the post nerf version then which was activated or the original version which was "lol screw you over in the worst way" by giving massive stupid penalties(I think it was like a haste and speed debuff or something stupid which neither of which you'd want while... moving) if you used it but I think that version died before ToT came out..... During ToT I'm 95% sure it was you could only cast SB, Incin, or MG while moving and apparently that was too OP.

There was a time you could use spells with no haste/speed problems and it was also a passive. I think that you might be right that chaos bolt might not have been castable while moving. I still thought it was really epic though.

[Jondar]

I asked what you wanted them for, what you thought 1 log of an 832 geared Affliction Warlock could add to the discussion that thousands of existing logs couldn't, other than to attempt to use to attack me rather than the weight of data my arguments were based on. Ultimately, you claimed to want to help me - which isn't really adding to the discussion; and I figured it was all moot since the class got buffed anyway indicating that in fact, the class is or was underpowered as the data suggested. In any case, I'd said my intention was to raid on my Mage as well, so a log probably wouldn't have been forthcoming, and it wasn't - nor did people show for that

I asked what you wanted them for, what you thought 1 log of an 832 geared Affliction Warlock could add to the discussion that thousands of existing

what you wanted them for, what you thought 1 log of an 832 geared Affliction Warlock

832 geared Affliction Warlock

NO SHIT YOU DON'T DO ANY DAMAGE. You're 832 iLvl. WHY DO YOU CARE WHAT THE 90%+ END GAME RAIDERS ARE DOING? It has absolutely, literally, 100% no effect on anything you are currently capable of doing based on your gear. I'm sure you're a super duper duper good Warlock or whatever, but what good does any of this do for you? You don't have any Warlock experience in EN, you have not first hand understood our strengths and weaknesses..

I just don't get it. Wtf is the point of this? All you're doing is deterring people from the Warlock. You are not helping anything.