MH17 missile 'came from Russia', Dutch-led investigators say

[Flarelaine]

If I wanted to bash Russia, I'd issue some nasty opinion about Russians. It is the most direct way after all, isn't it? I mean I got a few words (well much more than a few) to describe the oh so wonderful ways in which they've become willing accomplices to the War Criminal Vladmir Putin's hi-jinks. Keep up the good work boys. I'm sure your children and grandchildren will thank you one day for forsaking democracy for authoritarianism because the famous Russian backbone of steel turned out to well... more like soggy ramen. When the going got tough, yet again, you ran into the arms of the autocrat who promised greatness. *golfclap*. Silly us for expecting better.

As much as I agree with your analysis, I'm calling for a break here. Russian government is as bad as you describe, but the Russian people... I doubt they willingly and knowingly forsook democracy. They never had proper democracy in the first place and while a few of their elections may have been more or less open, they never knew democracy. They never knew the workings of democracy, the underlying philosophy, checks and balances, the whole nine yards. They were told "We're democratic now!" and found the lives they knew entirely disrupted.

And I know that because I live in Eastern Europe and what I said about the Russians pretty much applies to all former satellites as well. Strongman politics are coming back in full force. Despite the fact that these countries had been (to some extent) democratic before the Iron Curtain and when the regimes fell there were people alive who could remember that time. The seeds were there to go back, though I admit they were not properly nurtured since. Russians did not have that to go back to.

[Deleted]

You're a fraud. Want to know how I know this?

Because I googled the quote. Juckner said that... in October 2015.

Nice year of change in direction for Europe there. They've only expanded sanctions and renewed older ones in the interim. Exactly at what point Djalil can we start to expect Jucker's change in direction to... ya know... happen? Maybe by October 2017?

Of course, you knew this when posting, which is why you didn't include a URL. Because you're a phony.

Hows that for a humiliating defeat? Because right now I'm grinning ear to ear laughing my ass off at you. You tried to pull a fast one, and like Wile E. Coyote, got blown up by your own TNT.

I hope people here who engage with Djalil's nonsense on a regular basis just note what sloppy trick this piece of work tried to pull for the sake of being right.

And what exactly has changed between October 2015 and now?
Sorry Skroe, you accuse me of "feels", while to be honest, it's you who live in this detached world of your full of anger and hatred. Your FEELINGS affect your vision of reality?

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Hey look the 27,000 post coward ran when caught.

What a fucking joke. 'til next time, pal.

Ahahah look at this post. Insecurity covered up with anger. Ahahah sorry dude I had things to do.

[ParanoiD84]

Is anyone surprised? thought we knew this since day one with those russian buck missiles.

[Slant]

Pretty much, We don't need to go after Putin for this, its those who fired it who are responsible.

Usually, responsibility goes up, not down. A soldier firing a rocket has a commander telling him to do so. Who has another commander telling this commander to keep the skies clear. Who is told by yet another commander to make sure the separatists win the civil war. Who is told by Putin that they need to prepare the annexation of Crimea by Russia. The fish starts to rot at the head, not the other way around.

[caervek]

Usually, responsibility goes up, not down.

That only works if Putin personally ordered the shoot down of MH17, which is ridiculously unlikely. When something happens accidentally it breaks the chain, I.E the President of the USA is not personally responsible for when somebody dies in a botched US airstrike, and if you hit somebody with your car on the way to work you can't blame it on your boss because he asked you to work that day.

If it was rebels who accidentally shot it down then it was their fault, it doesn't even matter if they used a Buk given to them by Russia or one of the ones they captured from Ukrainian loyalists, it's their mistake and their fault.

The big issue is though as the west doesn't recognise the breakaway republics they cannot blame/prosecute them as an entity, and they have no way of ever knowing who personally pressed the button, who are they going to blame? They can't exactly turn around and blame Kiev for political reasons.

[Shalcker]

Usually, responsibility goes up, not down. A soldier firing a rocket has a commander telling him to do so. Who has another commander telling this commander to keep the skies clear. Who is told by yet another commander to make sure the separatists win the civil war. Who is told by Putin that they need to prepare the annexation of Crimea by Russia. The fish starts to rot at the head, not the other way around.

Let's imagine worst case scenario. It was Russian army and Russian servicemen fired that missile while hunting Ukrainian jet, and then it locked to MH17.
Let's assume at some point in the future Russia admits it... what exactly will happen?

Well, Russia will pay compensation to victims, maybe say "we're sorry, it was a mistake" (see "We're sorry" BP clip from South Park here). That's it.

Sanctions already played out. If anyone will strengthen them at that point it'll be for reasons completely unrelated to this fact, just using good excuse for other reasons.

[Deleted]

I maintain my original sequence of events is likely the most probable one.
5) From the above, Russia and it's proxies began a campaign to keep he Ukrainian Air Force Grounded. A few days prior to MH17, they shot down two cargo aircraft, a couple of days a part.
6) Probably the same unit that shot down those cargo aircraft committed a tremendous fuckup, and shot down MH17, thinking it was another Ukrainian cargo aircraft (see: bad training).

Did they turn on the radar integrated in the launcher?
Because if they did, they are now an active target for the Ukrainian artillery.

I really think this is the most likely explanation. Russia was not out to make a point by shooting down a civilian jetliners. Russian troops didn't on their own go out of their way to kill civilians (in this case) from other countries. The most likely explanation given the cargo aircraft shoot downs the days before was that, to put it simply, inexperienced and under trained Russian troops and (maybe) their proxies that had successful gone 2 for 2, put their itchy trigger finger to use and shot down an aircraft that looked like another cargo aircraft.

But those are two distinct scenarios - Russia only has culpability if it was an actual Russian regular pushing the button.
And when you are manning any indirect unit, the first fucking lesson they tell you, is never turn on the radar unless you can hide your signature.
This is not even a mistake a conscript would be able to make, if it was Russian regulars, they would have been told to fire at whatever the integrated Russian command told them to fire, because that is how Buk's are designed to be deployed.

The scenario you use where someone turns on the radar, acquires a target, and then fires randomly is absurd - The skies are mostly empty, their odds of turning it on and off sporadically fishing for targets is insane - Besides, IIRC those cargo planes where shot down on approach to the airport - presumably optically acquired.

I also hope for the opening of a criminal case against Russian leadership. It doesn't have to be successful... it just has to name The War Criminal Vladmir Putin and his gang as accused murderers.

But it isn't and wasn't.
Ordering a commercial airliner be shot down might be, but it wasn't.
They shot down what they thought was a legitimate military target - That's not a war crime, it wouldn't matter if Putin said tomorrow that the Buk launcher was Russian, with Russian regulars manning it, on orders of the STAVKA - It's still not a warcrime.
Or else Ronald Reagan is a war-criminal.

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Wait, Russia have improved massively since 2001 lol. Their economy is better, their trade is better, their image is better, their military is improving instead of decaying, etc etc.

Russia flew high on the oil, sure, but the relative position has declined since 2001.
Russia had a golden opportunity in 2001, to use its leverage with the EU (an EU that liked it, even the eastern parts were happy) - the high prices of oil to refurbish their economy to something powerful, along with the good relationship with the US - To well fix it self.
That it had to invade the Ukraine is not a sign of strength, it is one of weakness.
If someone were to sketch the next 15 years of the russian federation in 2001, most would have said something about being a member of Nato and or the EU, having the fourth largest economy in Europe instead of the sixth.
Now, its waiting to see if there is a total collapse (i don't think so) or just a collapse of the Putin regime (forcing the EU to buy Russia).

[Kellhound]

The point of proving whose fault is? The dead and their families ofc. What the hell are you smoking dude?

That has been provided to the point it needs to be, nothing about it requires release of classified information.

[Keeponrage]

In 2001 the only near-peer across the table from Russia was the United States. The EU was a half-formed group. China was backwards. Russia was easily the second most powerful country/union in the world. The Russian Federation being then still the relatively recently formed successor state of the Sovet Union, and the legal successor to it's responsibilities and treaties, was treated as a peer. That is why, for example, it was invited to the G7, even though it wasn't technically a major economy.

Fuck Skroe, I knew that you are damn misinformed about Russia in general, but this pearl is precious in two ways: you are misinformed factually and can't think logically.

Even under todays' sanctions and low oil prices, Russia is much stronger economically, military and politically than a Russia of 2001.

[Slant]

That only works if Putin personally ordered the shoot down of MH17, which is ridiculously unlikely. When something happens accidentally it breaks the chain, I.E the President of the USA is not personally responsible for when somebody dies in a botched US airstrike, and if you hit somebody with your car on the way to work you can't blame it on your boss because he asked you to work that day.

If it was rebels who accidentally shot it down then it was their fault, it doesn't even matter if they used a Buk given to them by Russia or one of the ones they captured from Ukrainian loyalists, it's their mistake and their fault.

The big issue is though as the west doesn't recognise the breakaway republics they cannot blame/prosecute them as an entity, and they have no way of ever knowing who personally pressed the button, who are they going to blame? They can't exactly turn around and blame Kiev for political reasons.

Lol, I like how some of the people on this forum have no working concept of responsibility and cause/effect chains. In the other thread, they want the head of a dude that only incidentally delayed rescue for an accident he didn't even have anything to do with, and in this thread you're seriously telling me the chief in command is not responsible for stuff that "happens on the battlefield".

Yes, my friend, yes he is. For everything happening. That's the whole point. If someone stumbles and accidentally sets off a nuclear device, it's on his commander in chief ultimately, because he let those things happen, he hired idiot generals that don't train their troops properly to avoid those mistakes. Jesus, yes of course Obama is directly responsible for botched air strikes. Why do you think people are giving him shit for his drone strike strategy?

Chief in Command isn't just a fancy title you give politicians so they feel important. It's the be all and end all of military chain of command. *shakes head in amusement*

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Let's imagine worst case scenario. It was Russian army and Russian servicemen fired that missile while hunting Ukrainian jet, and then it locked to MH17.
Let's assume at some point in the future Russia admits it... what exactly will happen?

Well, Russia will pay compensation to victims, maybe say "we're sorry, it was a mistake" (see "We're sorry" BP clip from South Park here). That's it.

Sanctions already played out. If anyone will strengthen them at that point it'll be for reasons completely unrelated to this fact, just using good excuse for other reasons.

I don't care about compensations. The question was who's responsible for the accident. The shooter is responsible. So is his sergeant overseeing the launch. So is his company commander, his general... that's the whole fucking point of chain of command, you don't ever EVER do something on your own. And if you do, something above you fucked up when he should have supervised you, because you're just a stupid grunt and fuck up all the time. And so on and so forth.

Why do you guys think lawyers have trouble getting past the "I was ordered to do so" defense? Because that's all a soldier needs to receive a get out of jail for free card.

[Shalcker]

I don't care about compensations. The question was who's responsible for the accident. The shooter is responsible. So is his sergeant overseeing the launch. So is his company commander, his general... that's the whole fucking point of chain of command, you don't ever EVER do something on your own. And if you do, something above you fucked up when he should have supervised you, because you're just a stupid grunt and fuck up all the time. And so on and so forth.

Why do you guys think lawyers have trouble getting past the "I was ordered to do so" defense? Because that's all a soldier needs to receive a get out of jail for free card.

Question of who is responsible is still unresolved at this point - there are accusations but no evidence, and we haven't heard defendant arguments in court against it too. Even if it will be resolved, nothing serious will happen (unless Ukrainians did it... then getting them hit real hard is possibility; but more likely nothing serious will happen even then, see their previous strike on civilian plane).

Just like with Obama's drone strikes and hospital bombings.

At most after lengthy court battles there might be some kind of compensation. More likely even that will not happen unless someone will try to get some favor with West by going along with it.

[caervek]

Lol, I like how some of the people on this forum have no working concept of responsibility and cause/effect chains.

It's you.

Yes, my friend, yes he is. For everything happening. That's the whole point.

Nope, it's never worked like that, it will never work like that.

Was Ronald Regan personally responsible for Iran Air 655?

Leaders are never responsible when something outside their remit occurs, be it somebody screwing up or going rogue.

[Annoying]

Question of who is responsible is still unresolved at this point - there are accusations but no evidence, and we haven't heard defendant arguments in court against it too. Even if it will be resolved, nothing serious will happen (unless Ukrainians did it... then getting them hit real hard is possibility; but more likely nothing serious will happen even then, see their previous strike on civilian plane).

Just like with Obama's drone strikes and hospital bombings.

At most after lengthy court battles there might be some kind of compensation. More likely even that will not happen unless someone will try to get some favor with West by going along with it.

...just accusations? There were rebels who posted on Russian social media about downing a Ukranian plane which they thought was a military transport plane. It ended up being MH17. They deleted their posts, but there's plenty of news referencing it, and I'm sure it's archived somewhere. Not to mention the now-deleted tweet from the DPR about seizing a Buk. About the only thing that's unresolved is if the rebels were simply Russian soldiers or if they were actually rebels.

I do agree, though, that we won't see much, if anything happen, even if we had 100% definitive proof of who did it.

[Independent voter]

I think alcohol was involved.

[Shalcker]

...just accusations? There were rebels who posted on Russian social media about downing a Ukranian plane which they thought was a military transport plane. It ended up being MH17.

That's still "just accusations". Rebels didn't have neither total control of their "ground reporters" nor perfect information network to instantly declare anything. People saw plane coming down, they assumed it was military transport or observer plane like before (because they don't have air force, and they don't expect Ukrainians to shoot their own planes), and they cheered about it because it's "us vs them", that's all there is to it.

They deleted their posts, but there's plenty of news referencing it, and I'm sure it's archived somewhere. Not to mention the now-deleted tweet from the DPR about seizing a Buk. About the only thing that's unresolved is if the rebels were simply Russian soldiers or if they were actually rebels.

If you believe every tweet... there were plenty of different tweets too, for example "Spanish Flight Controller", saying Ukrainians are seizing flight information - also deleted btw! That means it was true! :P

...we still haven't ever seen Ukrainian radar readings btw, nor their flight dispatcher talk recordings (other then the ones from black box).

And we also had "satellite images" from social media showing Ukrainian Su-25 launching missile on MH-17! Who cares about wrong proportions? It was on social media, it means it doesn't need to be proven! :P

[zmp]

And we also had "satellite images" from social media showing Ukrainian Su-25 launching missile on MH-17! Who cares about wrong proportions? It was on social media, it means it doesn't need to be proven! :P

As long as the "satelite images" are from Red Alert 2, with Yuri in the background, its good enough for MMO-C as proof that it clearly was Russia who was behind it...

[Cybran]

The Dutch already rolled over and voted to block Ukraine from joining the Association Agreement with the EU. This whole circus is pointless.

[Ausr]

...just accusations? There were rebels who posted on Russian social media about downing a Ukranian plane which they thought was a military transport plane. It ended up being MH17. They deleted their posts, but there's plenty of news referencing it, and I'm sure it's archived somewhere. Not to mention the now-deleted tweet from the DPR about seizing a Buk. About the only thing that's unresolved is if the rebels were simply Russian soldiers or if they were actually rebels.

I do agree, though, that we won't see much, if anything happen, even if we had 100% definitive proof of who did it.

You're arguing with someone who still denies the green men in Crimea weren't Russian soldiers and that Russia isn't in Ukraine.

[caervek]

There were rebels who posted on Russian social media about downing a Ukranian plane which they thought was a military transport plane.

In fairness, they did down a military transport plane with a Buk ~48hrs before MH17 was hit, the announcement could have just been bad timing (not saying it was just that it could have been).

If you believe every tweet...

The thing is we're not talking about random tweets from Ivan the fishmonger, we're talking about official press release tweets from the twitter account of the DPR.

[Hooked]

So what are the dutch going to do about it?. Nothing?, thought so. The Netherlands aren't keeping up their part of the agreement with nato to spend a minimum of 2%.