Language spoken by the Nightborne

[DarkTZeratul]

Yeah it's just like how American English and British English have changed.

A better example might be Old English and Modern English.

[Throren]

English isn't common. EVERYTHING is translated for the player. There is a great example of untranslated spoken common in the game;

I never noticed that, and it's actually really cool. Looking at the lyrics you can see the titan heritage in the words, I mean common technically derived from the vrykul langauge which in term came from the titan language. it even has some similarities to dwarven (another language that shares ancestry with common). I mean heck.

O' Thanagor; Thanagor meaning king. What's it similar to? The word Thane which is both a Vrykul and Dwarven word for Ruler, lord or leader.

Anyways, Ill stop being off-topic but ya, everything is translated for the players, just like how all the orcs, draenei and other races on draenor somehow knew common despite never being to Azeroth

[Adunai]

I hope, you remember that 10k years have passed since the WotA? That's longer than the Years of the Sun in Tolkien's legendarium. Keep in mind that it took from 5 to 10k years for Sindarin to distinguish itself from Quenya, and that's with Elven immortality, whereas the Quel'dorei of Quel'Thalas were mortal.

[Kallisto]

English isn't common. EVERYTHING is translated for the player. There is a great example of untranslated spoken common in the game; ]

It might not be modern English but it is at least based of pre Normal English to medieval English. Thrall basically means slave in the old english tongue. As humans are descended from Vrykul who speak a heavy Germanic (Norse) like tongue it is not beyond all expectation to consider common to be something close to old English.

[Linkedblade]

An archaic form of Darnassian derived from its upper-class register.

If it was different from Darnassian this is probably the case. The long lived night elves language probably didn't change much over that period of isolation. Only a few generations of elves would be born and not many elderly would have died.

[Garfurion]

According to DonAdams: https://twitter.com/_DonAdams/status/779114403153063938

My question is, I wonder how close it is to Darnassian. It's times like this I wish perhaps warcraft had an expert like Tolkein writing it, he was the language genius. Ofc, accurately, he presents the langauge of the immortal elves unchanged in the millennia of their time. I get a sense he really carefully captures how a very long lived sentient race would be. Details lilke that made them feel so realistic in a way I've been craving for warcraft racial lore to be. But it takes a lot of pain staking time, research, and learning to get right, not just a creative genius flare for telling a good story.

With both education, and high intelligence, there should be no change in language spoken by either the Kalimdor Night elves or the Nightborne, seeing both were the same original elves and originate from Suramar. As a dialect of the original ancient elvish - which I presume is Darnassian????? I don't think there really should exist a variation or if it does, it should be very small.

Subsequent children born, would be taught the language of their parents too, and being educated, with all the language and books, it should remain unchanged. Both Night elves and Nightborne were 100% night elven societies when they went into isolation, and both have the same people still alive. Most of the druids have been asleep for thousands of years anyway, only the females have been around the whole time amongst the night elves, and amongst those who became nightborne, even less has changed, less variation, no devaiation.

Unless Suramar originally spoke a dialect of ancient elvish? Also I thought Darnassian was the original language of the Elves - i.e. the Ancient Elvish, again, I don't see why or how supposedly intelligent beings, with learning and particular to attention would have experienced a language change.

I'll be very disappointed if blizz keep making unrealistic changes to language just because of gameplay. They should never have bothered to try and create an undead language, or make different groups who should be able to understand each other, all of a sudden not understand each other - they should just simply not allow communication between alliance and horde...and then try to make the lore as logical and realistic as possible.

Even Thalassian being largely different from Darnassian is also a stretch, only a handful of generations have passed, and while the High elves were subject to far more outside influence then any of the night elven groups locked way in the 3 main locations were, still they were educated, and highly intelligent too, the language change should be slight. Night elves and nightborne should be able to understand each other with only slight variations in the language, certain idioms and phrases different, different weight on certain words, but also key phrases different , but in the same language. And both should be able to understand Thalassian.

Is this something else gameplay ruined?

I think the more isolated from each other two groups are, the faster they will diverge from each both physically and culturally.

Current Night Elves clearly have a different culture compared to the Pre-WotA Night-Elves, and the composition of the their society also changed. Pre-WotA Night Elven society was magically oriented and ruled by the Highborne. Post WotA Night Elven society was nature oriented and ruled by the clergy which (mostly) came from the ranks of the commoners.

Even assuming all Pre-WotA Elves spoke the same language and there were no dialects like High-Darnassian for the Highborne, and Common-Darnassian for the commoners a major difference between the Nightborne and the Night-Elves is the that the first group has been isolated while the second group has had interaction with other races and languages which will have influenced their own language.

Looking at our own world, Icelandic, Faroese and modern Norse/Swedish/Danish all decent from Old Norse and although Icelandic is still very similar to Old Norse probably thanks to the isolated location of Iceland (especially in pre-modern times), Swedish, Norse and Danish have all evolved. Even Faroese, which according to wikipedia (so it must be true ) is the closest related language to icelandic is not "mutually intelligible in speech".

This all happened in a few centuries so imagine what 10.000 years can do especially given the isolation of the Nightborne.

It is possible that the different Elven races don't understand each other (easily) although there is of course also a gameplay reason involved.

[Gurluas]

Actually Pre-WotA elves also lived among nature and such. Val'sharah looked the same 10.000 years ago for instance. Lorlathil is where Illidan and Malfurion were born.

Post-Sundering the "High Class" and "High Culture" was removed. Eventually this downgrade became too much for the Highborne who after 2k years left to found Quel'thalas.

[Mace]

I think the more isolated from each other two groups are, the faster they will diverge from each both physically and culturally.

Current Night Elves clearly have a different culture compared to the Pre-WotA Night-Elves, and the composition of the their society also changed. Pre-WotA Night Elven society was magically oriented and ruled by the Highborne. Post WotA Night Elven society was nature oriented and ruled by the clergy which (mostly) came from the ranks of the commoners.

Even assuming all Pre-WotA Elves spoke the same language and there were no dialects like High-Darnassian for the Highborne, and Common-Darnassian for the commoners a major difference between the Nightborne and the Night-Elves is the that the first group has been isolated while the second group has had interaction with other races and languages which will have influenced their own language.

Looking at our own world, Icelandic, Faroese and modern Norse/Swedish/Danish all decent from Old Norse and although Icelandic is still very similar to Old Norse probably thanks to the isolated location of Iceland (especially in pre-modern times), Swedish, Norse and Danish have all evolved. Even Faroese, which according to wikipedia (so it must be true ) is the closest related language to icelandic is not "mutually intelligible in speech".

This all happened in a few centuries so imagine what 10.000 years can do especially given the isolation of the Nightborne.

It is possible that the different Elven races don't understand each other (easily) although there is of course also a gameplay reason involved.

that's kinda what happened. The Nightborne elves continued in the same original culture, but the night elves changed to a druidic culture being led by Malfurion (who afterall did beat the Legion and Azshara) - nature dominated the scene when the arcane wasn't used for spells, otherwise it would simply have shared the stage. So the night elves adopted a new culture, while the night elves of Suramar -later nightborne did not.

But nightborne only darken and become thinner, changing physical apperance beacuse of the nightwell, the other night elves outside, even those not part of Malfurion's survivor group (broken isles night elves and highborne of house shen'dralar in Dire Maul) all remain unchanged - remember it's the same people living. The language shouldn't change though, unless you learn lots of new things, but that's just new words the other group won't have an equivalent for, but it'd be the same language.

Another consideration is different terms. Many of the arcane terms, trends and words would fall out of use in the Hyjal group, but not in the Suramar or Dire Maul group, The Dire Maul group we found out have been scrying on the world for 10k years anyway, and studying everything, they would have new words for many of the new things they discover on the world. And in fact whiles darnassia, they'd have perhaps enough new terms for the language to be a dialect?

The Hyjal group on the other hand, was in isolation, so all their new words would be since the 3rd war, whether they'd use the common terms or Thalassian terms for some of the new things, who knows, unless Darnassian had an equivalent. As the majority of them were from Suramar, they would have the Suramar accent too. but here's the catch, the majority of them were non-highborne - and it is quite possible, the Highborne of Suramar had a different accent to the non-highborne, if most of the non-highborne are the ones that left to fight the war, then I can understand how a different dialect would develop - because:

Suramar nightborne would have the ancient Surmaar highborne accent, while the Hyjal night elves would have the normal accent. It's likely that House Shen'dralar would have a similar accent, but not necesarily to Suramar. In England, the upper class all speak the same way, but England is a small country, The Night elf empire spanned the globe, it's likely a city of Highborne like Azshara founded in Eldre'thalas, in the far west would more likely have it's own accent and even dialect, if sharing the same smug/snubby demeanour night elven elite in the arcane cultures tend to have.

Suramar night elves/nightobrne would be the least changed, they would have the least influence from outside, because they were totally sealed off, whereas at least the Shen'dralar scryed. and the Hyjal night elves had the demi-gods and cenarian half-night elves amongst them even if they isolated from everyone else.

Suramar would have all the knowledge, repositories, books, learning, fashions and would have been developing and building on them, but being intelligent and high class they would not change.

therefore conclusion. Darnassian would be understandble by them, but it would be a different dialect - i.e. accents, and terms that would be unfamiliar, developed in the nature advancing and arcane usage fallen out of use.

Highborne of House Shen'dralar would also have a different dialect too - however they would be able to understand each other, and pick up each others' peculiarities.

What do you think?

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Actually Pre-WotA elves also lived among nature and such. Val'sharah looked the same 10.000 years ago for instance. Lorlathil is where Illidan and Malfurion were born.

Post-Sundering the "High Class" and "High Culture" was removed. Eventually this downgrade became too much for the Highborne who after 2k years left to found Quel'thalas.

It wasn't the downgrade really, was it? Remember they had been reduced to nothing ( had no idea Eldre'thalas or Suramar still up and running), and all were making do, but I'm sure they would have gotten tired of living in that state indeinitely, but I don't think it was the main motivator. The big reason was the refusal to use the arcane which seemed ludicrous to the highborne of Zin'Azshari - seeing it was such an asset, and they believed it's usage could be masked from extra-dimensional eyes in the twisting nether - but Malfurion didn't trust their motives but I think the main reason he refused was because he felt it was too big a risk, just to indulge the return to a lifestyle that was probably better left in the past.

In those days, the night elves hadn't really discovered the cure for arcane addiction, that's only just been done, with what happened the last time, I'm sure Malfurion was also concerned, that the lure despite the precautions might tempt the night elves to over-reach, and well, look what happened the last time that happened.. too big a risk, especially if one as highly esteemed like Azshara could not resist. So they said no, thinking it was the arcane addiction motivating the move rather than the best interest of the night elves and the world

Wasn't Lor'lathils in Val'sharah region of Suramar where they were dedicated?- likely where they born, but definitely where they were dedicated. We know they were living in Suramar City at the time of the first invasion. Well Malfurion chose to live on the outskirts - he was outspoken about the excess living of society at the time and was consider a pariah, social outcast, he didn't care.

[Gurluas]

that's kinda what happened. The Nightborne elves continued in the same original culture, but the night elves changed to a druidic culture being led by Malfurion (who afterall did beat the Legion and Azshara) - nature dominated the scene when the arcane wasn't used for spells, otherwise it would simply have shared the stage. So the night elves adopted a new culture, while the night elves of Suramar -later nightborne did not.

But nightborne only darken and become thinner, changing physical apperance beacuse of the nightwell, the other night elves outside, even those not part of Malfurion's survivor group (broken isles night elves and highborne of house shen'dralar in Dire Maul) all remain unchanged - remember it's the same people living. The language shouldn't change though, unless you learn lots of new things, but that's just new words the other group won't have an equivalent for, but it'd be the same language.

Another consideration is different terms. Many of the arcane terms, trends and words would fall out of use in the Hyjal group, but not in the Suramar or Dire Maul group, The Dire Maul group we found out have been scrying on the world for 10k years anyway, and studying everything, they would have new words for many of the new things they discover on the world. And in fact whiles darnassia, they'd have perhaps enough new terms for the language to be a dialect?

The Hyjal group on the other hand, was in isolation, so all their new words would be since the 3rd war, whether they'd use the common terms or Thalassian terms for some of the new things, who knows, unless Darnassian had an equivalent. As the majority of them were from Suramar, they would have the Suramar accent too. but here's the catch, the majority of them were non-highborne - and it is quite possible, the Highborne of Suramar had a different accent to the non-highborne, if most of the non-highborne are the ones that left to fight the war, then I can understand how a different dialect would develop - because:

Suramar nightborne would have the ancient Surmaar highborne accent, while the Hyjal night elves would have the normal accent. It's likely that House Shen'dralar would have a similar accent, but not necesarily to Suramar. In England, the upper class all speak the same way, but England is a small country, The Night elf empire spanned the globe, it's likely a city of Highborne like Azshara founded in Eldre'thalas, in the far west would more likely have it's own accent and even dialect, if sharing the same smug/snubby demeanour night elven elite in the arcane cultures tend to have.

Suramar night elves/nightobrne would be the least changed, they would have the least influence from outside, because they were totally sealed off, whereas at least the Shen'dralar scryed. and the Hyjal night elves had the demi-gods and cenarian half-night elves amongst them even if they isolated from everyone else.

Suramar would have all the knowledge, repositories, books, learning, fashions and would have been developing and building on them, but being intelligent and high class they would not change.

therefore conclusion. Darnassian would be understandble by them, but it would be a different dialect - i.e. accents, and terms that would be unfamiliar, developed in the nature advancing and arcane usage fallen out of use.

Highborne of House Shen'dralar would also have a different dialect too - however they would be able to understand each other, and pick up each others' peculiarities.

What do you think?

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It wasn't the downgrade really, was it? Remember they had been reduced to nothing ( had no idea Eldre'thalas or Suramar still up and running), and all were making do, but I'm sure they would have gotten tired of living in that state indeinitely, but I don't think it was the main motivator. The big reason was the refusal to use the arcane which seemed ludicrous to the highborne of Zin'Azshari - seeing it was such an asset, and they believed it's usage could be masked from extra-dimensional eyes in the twisting nether - but Malfurion didn't trust their motives but I think the main reason he refused was because he felt it was too big a risk, just to indulge the return to a lifestyle that was probably better left in the past.

In those days, the night elves hadn't really discovered the cure for arcane addiction, that's only just been done, with what happened the last time, I'm sure Malfurion was also concerned, that the lure despite the precautions might tempt the night elves to over-reach, and well, look what happened the last time that happened.. too big a risk, especially if one as highly esteemed like Azshara could not resist. So they said no, thinking it was the arcane addiction motivating the move rather than the best interest of the night elves and the world

Wasn't Lor'lathils in Val'sharah region of Suramar where they were dedicated?- likely where they born, but definitely where they were dedicated. We know they were living in Suramar City at the time of the first invasion. Well Malfurion chose to live on the outskirts - he was outspoken about the excess living of society at the time and was consider a pariah, social outcast, he didn't care.

To the Highborne who were used to live in luxurious arcane palaces, yes, being in a tree in the woods is a big downgrade, especially with Arcane magic outlawed.

Basically the ancient Night elves were divided between the countryside elves, who used Arcane, but also lived in small communities and villages.
And the High society in the great metropolis like Suramar or Zin-Azshari.

The High society was completely wiped out in Nelf culture following the Sundering, and the Countryside way of life was amplified, and Arcane outlawed.

[Mace]

To the Highborne who were used to live in luxurious arcane palaces, yes, being in a tree in the woods is a big downgrade, especially with Arcane magic outlawed.

Basically the ancient Night elves were divided between the countryside elves, who used Arcane, but also lived in small communities and villages.
And the High society in the great metropolis like Suramar or Zin-Azshari.

The High society was completely wiped out in Nelf culture following the Sundering, and the Countryside way of life was amplified, and Arcane outlawed.

Yes, you're right, and you can imagine what it would have felt like, Remember it was a massive downgrade for ALL of them, not just the highborne, but moreso the highborne, who go from elite to chums because of what the legion did. Whiles the vast majority of the highborne lived in cities, remember there were many more lower classes in there, as well as in the countrysides. Sure almost no highborne would be found in the country, very few, but cities still had more non-highborne than highborne I would surmise. But More than that though, it was so bad, the trauma from it all, with the final of the sundering capping it all off, they needed Ysera's gift to lift their spirits, otherwise i don't think they'd have coped, after seeing a place like Suramar, can you imagine what most people from cities, advanced cities and nations of the world would be like after an apocalypse? then factor in that they are elves, beauty, perfection, and a level of cohesion that we're not even close to in our modern society - and to be the architects - wittingly (Darth'remar's zin'azshari group) or mostly unwittingly most of the other night elves incl some non-zin'azashari - of the anti-thesis of everything you stood for.. the SHOCK ! , the HORROR of it all, the trauma - even thought iw as a whirlwind, yet they endured.. some highborne did switch from arcane to druidsm, however most after 3k years of forest, had had enough of what they viewed as a pointless magic usage abstention. and that's where split happened.

[Garfurion]

What do you think?

The changes in language would probably be more in line with dialects. However, there are plenty of dialects in my own country&language which I can't understand
Given time a dominant Night Elven dialect could have become the standard for all Hyjal Elves and unintelligible to the Nightborne. It's not very likely, but it's not impossible either.

The Elves themselves being mostly the same individuals complicates things a bit but I think language/dialects can still evolve within a persons lifetime, and 10.000 years is a really long time.

[Wyrt]

It should be similar to both Darnassian and Thalassian languages, but not exactly the same. Probably like Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian are all similar, but still different.

[Mace]

The changes in language would probably be more in line with dialects. However, there are plenty of dialects in my own country&language which I can't understand
Given time a dominant Night Elven dialect could have become the standard for all Hyjal Elves and unintelligible to the Nightborne. It's not very likely, but it's not impossible either.

The Elves themselves being mostly the same individuals complicates things a bit but I think language/dialects can still evolve within a persons lifetime, and 10.000 years is a really long time.

yeah, dialects can vary enormously or very slightly. Would you say American English is a dialect of UK English for example.. they are often treated as two separate languages. Until more clarity arises on the matter, I would treat the Nightborne language and the Night Elves' language as a similar thing, like winterslegion stated, or like DarkTZeratul indeed pointed out is better, "old English compared to Modern English"

cos face it, the night elves of Suramar's language would have changed the least, it's the Hyjal night elf group that underwent a lot of change, they had the culture change, started walking with dragons, aspects and demi gods, which other groups like the Eldre'thalas lot and the ones still in Suramar did not have. And whiles, it is the same people still alive, they had no libraries, books or even taught the arcane ways they all walked in prior to the disaster. So it could possibly have changed slightly by sheer use of new terms, new words for all the nature stuff, and those becoming far more used than the old words, making the Nightborne and the Highborne sound like old shakesperan compared to the night elves.

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A better example might be Old English and Modern English.

spot on, I think - at least that's a better way of putting it.

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It should be similar to both Darnassian and Thalassian languages, but not exactly the same. Probably like Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian are all similar, but still different.

another thought came to mind, ancient greek and modern greek, perhaps best describes - change in culture necessitates a lot of different words, but the same core language, this case between the night elves and the nightborne might not be as extreme, probably a bit closer to modern v ancient english than greek simply because it's still the 1 generation leading and alive instructing all subsequent generations, of which the Night elves would have had more than the nightborne, not having any space to grow. It should be the case with Thalassian as well or even better to describe Thalassian which is still at it's core the language of the night elves, but new interactions, emphasis, etc, esp new generations etc, would modify it the most compared to the other two. The Thalassian group is the only one that has had a generation pass, several generations in fact. But being also highly intelligent and learned, it should be anywhere near a new language , difficult for highly intelligent minds to grasp. They should all be able to communicate with each other.

After their experiene with the highborne in cata, many night elves should have no trouble understanding the nightborne, and the ancients night elves, esp those like Tyrande, the Shadowsongs, the Stormrages et who come from the city shouldn't have trouble at all, even though their accents would likely have changed.