Post-nerf Outlaw retune needed

[Xanatu]

I get that, I'm just asking why people assume Sub doesn't already have a target on its back. I know it starts pulling ahead sooner than NH, but by the time NH gear drops it's so far ahead - on both ST and AoE - that it's almost certainly going to get the same treatment Outlaw just did. NH is obviously a ways off, maybe long enough for hardcore raiders to 100% two weapons and mitigate the threat somewhat, but it seems like everyone else is just deferring disappointment on another, much larger AP sink.

The more we go on, the more I think it'll become apparent what a pain in the ass having to level three weapons as DPS is going to be. None of it will matter much in a year when we've got all traits, but it's going to suck leading up to that. Especially for mythic raiders who are expected to change spec every time Blizzard nerfs one.

Right. I think that's why this is so frustrating; we as a community thought we had a bead on what spec to play going forward for this tier and they crushed that, not just by buffing sub but by also nerfing outlaw. I don't think anyone wants big changes once we've already committed like that. I'll play whatever but we can't get the shake-up once the tier starts and we're already heavily invested. If you told me assassination was going to get buffed for 7.2 I'd get ready but you can't say "hey next week assassination is now the best, we've nerfed the other two, enjoy". For pure classes this is realllly frustrating and we seem to be the only one dealing with it.

[Hctaz]

This is your opinion tho. You have 2 specs that are not that way on a rogue if you don't want to play a gambler. For those that want to, outlaw is there. Heck even if you like everything about outlaw except rtb you can get SnD

I mean I guess it's my opinion but it'd be a huge buff to the damage if the RNG wasn't as huge. The fluctuation on damage is too high and you can't reliably get the damage you need when you need it. The other specs can and that's another reason why outlaw isn't as high up anymore.

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speak for yourself

RtB is one of the most fun and engaging mechanics, rogues ever had imo
it kinda makes me sad i have to go back to sub which seems so much paler in comparison and ive been maining sub for the better part of the last 11 years

I'm not talking about it from a "Fun" aspect. This thread is complaining about the fact that Outlaw's damage is low. This is partially due to RTB being so RNG based. Getting 1 buff which happens to be the worst or getting all 6 at once is just too high variance.

[Xanatu]

I'm not talking about it from a "Fun" aspect. This thread is complaining about the fact that Outlaw's damage is low. This is partially due to RTB being so RNG based. Getting 1 buff which happens to be the worst or getting all 6 at once is just too high variance.

I don't necessarily agree that our damage is low because of RTB being an RNG mechanic. Our damage was fine last week. If you mean it's low because they're afraid of the upside variance, I'd agree with that.

[Yoshimiko]

Outlaw nerf where right on target... All 3 specs are now viable witch is great and what should be every rogue wish. All 3 specs have different niche but they are all more than viable.

Except not really. Why would you play a heavy RNG spec that, on average, does less DPS than a more reliable spec in both single target as well as AoE outside of already spending 300k+ artifact power on the weakest rogue spec?

[uniquesnowflakename]

I think another problem is Blade Flurry, and Combat having been "the AoE spec" in previous expansions. There's something to be said for keeping the flavor intact, but it's... not particularly realistic to think the average player is going to keep two artifacts leveled up just so they can spec-swap for ST or AoE, and kind of unfair to put that onus on raiders. And now Blizz is actively buffing sin/sub's AoE, so...

If Outlaw being cleave king is a justification for gimping its ST against the other two specs, I'd rather see them bring down its AoE instead. Now that we have to level up our weapons, I don't think there should be as big of an AoE/ST divide between specs as we've seen in the past.

[Xanatu]

https://player.twitch.tv/?video=v84480726

21:30 - Just to make sure he doesn't try and weasel out.

Thanks for the link, I'm tweeting this with the timestamp to Watcher and Warcraftdevs in regards to Outlaw. This is basically exactly what they did to us. encourage you guys to do the same.

[Sephiroso]

Except not really. Why would you play a heavy RNG spec that, on average, does less DPS than a more reliable spec in both single target as well as AoE outside of already spending 300k+ artifact power on the weakest rogue spec?

It does less damage on average in sims. Not in real world play.

[Kalador]

Actually we're back to only 1 viable spec, it's now sub. Outlaw is 100% useless without more tuning. There is NO reason to play this spec right now other than the fact that we're kind of stuck with it for EN.

This is completly untrue, Outlaw is still very viable, it's still the best spec for mythic+ and has amazing cleave, it's has very good ST till 870ish + gear when sub slowly pass in front. Outlaw toolkit is strong with MFD-BF-RT.... there is only 2 pure ST fight in EN and all other are probably better has outlaw as it's the spec that get's the most out of MFD reset... Also it's still probably one of the best melee spec.

it was completly out of target.Starting legion they say :"we will no hard nerf overperforming spec we will tune up the other viable spec for a class"

Well they stab us and they miss the target. They will have Hit the target if they have just tuned up sin and sub

It's right on target, all 3 spec are perfectly viable. you just have choice of what you want to play now instead of being pigeonholed into Outlaw...

Outlaw as best mythic + kite and very good kite on any fight with mfd reset. strong ST and Strong cleave and AoE.
sin as best 3 target sustaine and very good ST at low gear level with shit AoE
sub as strong ST that scale very well with a LOT of gear 870ish + and good bursty AoE...

play what you want or play all 3 spec and be even better!

[Wow]

None of it will matter much in a year when we've got all traits, but it's going to suck leading up to that. Especially for mythic raiders who are expected to change spec every time Blizzard nerfs one.

It will matter because they've said they want ap to matter all exp and will add more for you to spend it on meaning you still have to slam a lot into a main spec. They set up this exp to fail hard because of their terrible tuning and plan on running with it.

They will continue to get it wrong because they are horrible at balance and have been for 12+ years.

[Kalador]

Except not really. Why would you play a heavy RNG spec that, on average, does less DPS than a more reliable spec in both single target as well as AoE outside of already spending 300k+ artifact power on the weakest rogue spec?

if you think sub is better than outlaw in AoE - it's not.... the sims show a 6min fight with wave of adds.... not a pure AoE Mythic + style ... Also outlaw is the best spec to take advantage of mfd reset...

Even there outlaw ST is as good as SuB ST till 870 ish gear... don'T pigeonholed yourself into 1 spec... you play rogue, a pure dps that makes you very felxible, if you to scared of having to switch depending on what the fight play a classe with 1 dps spec....

[PessimiStick]

if you think sub is better than outlaw in AoE - it's not.... the sims show a 6min fight with wave of adds.... not a pure AoE Mythic + style ... Also outlaw is the best spec to take advantage of mfd reset...

Even there outlaw ST is as good as SuB ST till 870 ish gear... don'T pigeonholed yourself into 1 spec... you play rogue, a pure dps that makes you very felxible, if you to scared of having to switch depending on what the fight play a classe with 1 dps spec....

You realize the problem is that you *can't* switch depending on the fight, right? That's the whole point. In previous expansions you just switched to your offspec and you're good to go. Now you switch to your offspec and ... whoops, your artifact is shit. Sucks to be you.

[Hctaz]

I don't necessarily agree that our damage is low because of RTB being an RNG mechanic. Our damage was fine last week. If you mean it's low because they're afraid of the upside variance, I'd agree with that.

Yeah I'm saying that the variance is too high. It might even out but the other specs dont have this kind of variance in them. Like I said earlier: With absolutely perfect RNG you will pull 100k more dps than average. With the worst RNG possible you will pull like 40k less than average. The variance is crazy high ya know?

[Wow]

if you think sub is better than outlaw in AoE - it's not.... the sims show a 6min fight with wave of adds.... not a pure AoE Mythic + style ... Also outlaw is the best spec to take advantage of mfd reset...

Combat aoe sucks unless you get lucky with greed procs it's aoe is kind of like rtb get lucky do great don't have some of the worst dps in the game...

I have no idea if sub aoe is better but I know combat's aoe is way too rng to be reliable. In a long enough timeline you will have the procs the problem is aoe is normally select times of a fight so it's just get lucky when it happens.

[Xanatu]

It will matter because they've said they want ap to matter all exp and will add more for you to spend it on meaning you still have to slam a lot into a main spec. They set up this exp to fail hard because of their terrible tuning and plan on running with it.

They will continue to get it wrong because they are horrible at balance and have been for 12+ years.

I don't even care if balance is shitty, they just need to commit to a spec when the tier launches and not screw us. I'll play whatever, but once it launches we shouldn't have to deal with potentially respeccing like this.

[TheRealTish]

I'm still surprised at the noticeable lack of useful traits in the Outlaw artifact tree. Perhaps they could replace one of the fairly useless ones with something in regards to Loaded Dice to help deal with the randomness of Roll the Bones. Maybe a 3 point trait with each increasing the chance of Rolling 2(or more buffs) with the 3rd point guaranteeing a double buff roll.

It should fit with the class fantasy, and let's be honest. We're rogues. We're not afraid to stack the odds in our favor through underhanded means.

Loaded Dice is a dope idea actually so kudos haha or kudos to whoever you heard that from if it wasn't you. That would only be feasible though if they make some decent nerfs to some of the buffs. Our normalizer (and usual culprit of poor pulls) is rolling singles over and over. If we rolled 2+ every roll at current specs, we would steam roll over classes. Could do something like a 3 rank trait that increases the chance that you WONT roll a single if prior roll was a single. But who knows. I don't think they will completely add anything at this point outside just changing values and modifiers.

[Sephiroso]

Combat aoe sucks unless you get lucky with greed procs it's aoe is kind of like rtb get lucky do great don't have some of the worst dps in the game...

I have no idea if sub aoe is better but I know combat's aoe is way too rng to be reliable.

Lol...sometimes i think people should have to pass a test in order to post. Just sometimes...If you think Outlaw aoe can only be good with greed procs you're just wrong.

[ymirsson]

I don't even care if balance is shitty, they just need to commit to a spec when the tier launches and not screw us. I'll play whatever, but once it launches we shouldn't have to deal with potentially respeccing like this.

Because you'd rather have broken specs then having to respec?

[Wow]

Lol...sometimes i think people should have to pass a test in order to post. Just sometimes...If you think Outlaw aoe can only be good with greed procs you're just wrong.

Sure it can do good on aoe without it but that take lots of luck at rtb's or mobs that die a lot faster than what you normally see in most mythic+'s or raids. On avg if greed doesn't proc your aoe will be bad compared to any classes that isn't super trash tier aoe.

The whole spec no matter what it's doing is a giant ball of rng.

[Sephiroso]

Sure it can do good on aoe without it but that take lots of luck at rtb's or mobs that die a lot faster than what you normally see in most mythic+'s or raids. On avg if greed doesn't proc your aoe will be bad compared to any classes that isn't super trash tier aoe.

The whole spec no matter what it's doing is a giant ball of rng.

If adds are taking forever to die in mythic+ you're in a shit group. Also, doesn't matter how long it takes them to die, you can still MfD them all(most of them at least). You're a complete shit MfD sniper if you think outlaw aoe is dependant on good rtb buffs/greed procs.

[Kalador]

You realize the problem is that you *can't* switch depending on the fight, right? That's the whole point. In previous expansions you just switched to your offspec and you're good to go. Now you switch to your offspec and ... whoops, your artifact is shit. Sucks to be you.

I have all 3 artefact to a good level... 15 in outlaw 16 in sins and 21 in subs, keeping 2 is even more viable, Sub/Outlaw or Sin/Outlaw are very strong Combo and where showing to be good combo from the start of the expac... Playing only one spec is YOUR choice, we knew form the start that it was doable and not very costly in term of point in MS to maintain 2 artefact.

https://felconcentration.wordpress.c...ing-artifacts/
https://felconcentration.wordpress.c...ing-artifacts/

Sorry you failed to see anything else than outlaw and thought it was going to be the strongest spec on everything....