1. #28761
    The Lightbringer Molis's Avatar
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    Something something dead horse...

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    Last edited by Darsithis; 2016-09-30 at 07:00 PM.

  2. #28762
    Quote Originally Posted by Edison View Post
    the "vanilla world" is cataclysm, while tbc wotlk etc still exists yes. I'm not talking about if private servers should be allowed or if they are against the law or not. Just saying that Vanilla wow as a game doesn't exist anymore.
    And you can say whatever you want, but WoW exists. It does not matter what version or flavor it is. That is why you'll never see any of these private servers try and go to court. The courts won't care that 'Vanilla' wow does not exist as it used to.

  3. #28763
    Banned Beazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taira View Post
    Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but you can patent a lightbulb, break the prototype, and still own the patent - right? What is this nonsense about keeping the old client? Copyright is exclusive rights to produce copies of an invention that you have patented. You legally own your idea, and no one else can lay claim to or use it without your explicit consent.
    Yes and no. A patent on software isn't the code per say, but the process you produce with the code.
    You cant sue someone because they used a statement like

    For Each(string s in MyBatch[]){
    ValidateInput(s);
    }

    Simply because you used the same naming conventions and method/function names. You have to prove that your documented patented process was copied. Believe me, Blizzard has the code for every version and every patch ever released for wow. The real question is, do they have the server and infrastructure to handle those old versions because the process has evolved so much in the past 10 years.

  4. #28764
    Quote Originally Posted by Beazy View Post
    Yes and no. A patent on software isn't the code per say, but the process you produce with the code.
    You cant sue someone because they used a statement like

    For Each(string s in MyBatch[]){
    ValidateInput(s);
    }

    Simply because you used the same naming conventions and method/function names. You have to prove that your documented patented process was copied. Believe me, Blizzard has the code for every version and every patch ever released for wow. The real question is, do they have the server and infrastructure to handle those old versions because the process has evolved so much in the past 10 years.
    No, they don't have all the code. They went into that specifically when they capped the meeting with the Nost team. They didn't have the tools around back then to archive all of the versions they had - so things like mob health, weapon values, all of that is gone. The Nost team watched YouTube videos and guessed at the numbers and the actual math behind everything - which Blizz also said was wrong, but got to a ballpark number - and that they'd have to redo the entire game from scratch, numbers-wise. Anything data-base related to the game from legacy, they do not have complete records of, and while they didn't talk about maps and art and terrain, it wouldn't be surprising to know some of that was lost, too, or edited in ways, with no original files to fall back to. They addressed this specifically, why you still maintain this myth is beyond me.

  5. #28765
    Who decides if you have protected your IP or not? It seems strange that somebody else makes that decision.

  6. #28766
    Banned Beazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gadzooks View Post
    No, they don't have all the code. They went into that specifically when they capped the meeting with the Nost team. They didn't have the tools around back then to archive all of the versions they had - so things like mob health, weapon values, all of that is gone. The Nost team watched YouTube videos and guessed at the numbers and the actual math behind everything - which Blizz also said was wrong, but got to a ballpark number - and that they'd have to redo the entire game from scratch, numbers-wise. Anything data-base related to the game from legacy, they do not have complete records of, and while they didn't talk about maps and art and terrain, it wouldn't be surprising to know some of that was lost, too, or edited in ways, with no original files to fall back to. They addressed this specifically, why you still maintain this myth is beyond me.

    The code, the engine, the compiled source is 100% backed up at blizzard. What they dont have are database values of things like health, and system statistics, or any dynamic or variable change in the system. And why would they keep that? That makes no sense, they dont put those versions into production. The code and the data are two completely different things, its not even debatable.

    So yes, they do have all the code for every version of World of Warcraft. Data is not code. I've been a software engineer for 20+ years so im pretty sure I know the difference between C++ and SQL/Oracle data tables.

  7. #28767
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    And you can say whatever you want, but WoW exists.
    By name only.
    It does not matter what version or flavor it is.
    So I can call Vanilla and chocolate the same, despite different flavors?
    That is why you'll never see any of these private servers try and go to court. The courts won't care that 'Vanilla' wow does not exist as it used to.
    You won't see them in court because the people who host private servers don't make any money off this, and are likely broke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beazy View Post
    So yes, they do have all the code for every version of World of Warcraft. Data is not code. I've been a software engineer for 20+ years so im pretty sure I know the difference between C++ and SQL/Oracle data tables.
    Can you pirate missing data? What part of these private servers is illegal? I'm assuming the private servers are running their own code and data, and nothing directly from Blizzard.

  8. #28768
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    You won't see them in court because the people who host private servers don't make any money off this, and are likely broke.
    Actually, almost all private servers operate as for-profit enterprises. When Blizzard took WoWscape's owner to court she had over three million dollars in her Paypal account. Most high-profile servers either take money in or operate cash shops. Nostalrius was the lone exception in large servers running in the modern era to not be powered by cash shops, and it's quite likely they were just building brand awareness before monetizing themselves. They did take donations in secret, mind you, they just didn't openly advertise they were doing so.

  9. #28769
    Quote Originally Posted by Roadblock View Post
    Take the poll at:
    https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/778240756037263361

    If you're still interested in official Legacy Realms.
    What if you're satisfied with Legion but also like Vanilla?

  10. #28770
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    You won't see them in court because the people who host private servers don't make any money off this, and are likely broke.
    SOMEONE made money from those donations, the company that hosted the servers. And there are plenty of private servers that go after and get money from people. Stop acting like all private servers are doing it for the people to bring Vanilla WoW to the masses from the benevolence of their hearts. Some people ARE after money. Nost may not have been but someone made money from it (the people hosting the servers).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahourai View Post
    Actually, almost all private servers operate as for-profit enterprises. When Blizzard took WoWscape's owner to court she had over three million dollars in her Paypal account. Most high-profile servers either take money in or operate cash shops. Nostalrius was the lone exception in large servers running in the modern era to not be powered by cash shops, and it's quite likely they were just building brand awareness before monetizing themselves. They did take donations in secret, mind you, they just didn't openly advertise they were doing so.
    Thank you for pointing this out, some people love to gloss over the money making aspect of many private servers. It was likely the change to the donation system that likely got Nost caught. The main thing was just the attention the server was getting from word of mouth, twitch streamers and youtubers. Get THAT noticed and bad things were likely to happen.

  11. #28771
    What part of these private servers is illegal?
    A better question would be what part is legal, and I'm fairly sure the answer is absolutely none of it.

    First of all, the emulator cores used by every WoW private realm require copyrighted Blizzard data to function, extracted from the client's .mpq files. The reason the WoW emulators are not illegal is that they do not host these files themselves, they just host tools to extract this data from the client, similar to Playstation emulation required a BIOS it would be illegal to distribute. Ripped data includes stuff like line-of-sight implementation, graveyard locations, achievement systems, collision detection, and many other functions. So any server where you can actually play WoW is using copyrighted material from the client. Not to mention stuff like the entire game text for NPC dialogue and such which has to be imported and is copyrighted.

    But this is all secondary, because Blizzard already has legal precedent for something much broader and stronger to attack private realms with. In the WoWscape judgment, the court ruled that it was a violation of copyright for private realms to exist at all, because the only legal way to play World of Warcraft is through the official servers. It wouldn't even matter if the emulator cores switched to a method of development whereby all the copyrighted data was reverse engineered, or if people wrote non-infringing text for the NPCs and stuff. Just providing access to WoW was ruled an infringement in this case.

  12. #28772
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    What if you're satisfied with Legion but also like Vanilla?
    Kern's polls are tailored for the pro-vanilla no-change crowd. They're usually full of loaded options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  13. #28773
    Quote Originally Posted by Beazy View Post
    The code, the engine, the compiled source is 100% backed up at blizzard. What they dont have are database values of things like health, and system statistics, or any dynamic or variable change in the system. And why would they keep that? That makes no sense, they dont put those versions into production. The code and the data are two completely different things, its not even debatable.

    So yes, they do have all the code for every version of World of Warcraft. Data is not code. I've been a software engineer for 20+ years so im pretty sure I know the difference between C++ and SQL/Oracle data tables.
    You sure about that? You're a Blizzard employee? And you know more than Stockton, who said they didn't have the tools to keep every bit of code, DB or not, back then?

    But I know what it is, you think you have a big swinging dick because you code, and of course that means you know everything about every company, especially when it fits your agenda. Right?

    Don't bother to answer, by the way, that was a rhetorical question.

  14. #28774
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Kern's polls are tailored for the pro-vanilla no-change crowd. They're usually full of loaded options.
    Example Kern poll:

    Vanilla was the best expansion:

    • a.) Yes
    • b.) Yes
    • c.) Yes
    • d.) I am voting for Donald Trump

  15. #28775
    Quote Originally Posted by slaise1 View Post
    Who decides if you have protected your IP or not? It seems strange that somebody else makes that decision.
    The owner of copyright has the bulk of responsibility to protect their copyrights - the first step is registering your copyright with the copyright office, and in every country outside of the US you intend to do business in. You can sue without doing that, but it's a steeper slope. That's why Blizzard has "©" all over their packaging and online content, and why they sue over it.

    Who decides if there's an infringement? A court of law. It's not strange, it's civil law - the government, state, Federal or otherwise, does not police for civil crime, which is why it has it's own courts and rules of law. Civil law is mostly conflict resolution, like 'Hey, that's my stuff! Don't use my stuff!" or "You broke my stuff, I want money to replace it."

  16. #28776
    the issue that would probably sink nost. et al if it ever came to an actual legal proceeding would be trademark; you might be able to construct a scenario where it's legal to operate a legacy WoW server (I highly doubt it but let's leave that aside for the moment), but you certainly cannot construct one in which it's legal to use and disseminate all of blizzard's protected marks without their permission, especially when you're essentially providing a substitute service.

  17. #28777
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    SOMEONE made money from those donations, the company that hosted the servers. And there are plenty of private servers that go after and get money from people. Stop acting like all private servers are doing it for the people to bring Vanilla WoW to the masses from the benevolence of their hearts. Some people ARE after money. Nost may not have been but someone made money from it (the people hosting the servers).
    Do donations count? They're not directly asking for a fee to play the game.

  18. #28778
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    By name only.

    So I can call Vanilla and chocolate the same, despite different flavors?

    You won't see them in court because the people who host private servers don't make any money off this, and are likely broke.


    Can you pirate missing data? What part of these private servers is illegal? I'm assuming the private servers are running their own code and data, and nothing directly from Blizzard.
    It's not just copyright violations at play here, although Blizzard does have standing for it. They (pirate server hosts) are also in violation of the DMCA laws about circumnavigating DRM, in this case, Battle.net.

    The whole issue whether pirated servers are legal or not has been thrown around this thread for a long time, but nobody has actually tested their theories in a court of law, which is the only and final authority. The Nost crew obviously felt they would lose in court, which props up the idea that it's illegal (as a civil crime), and they would be ruined financially in a legal fight they couldn't win. Plus, there's precedent for it, see the Scapegaming lawsuit for reference.

    If you think you have a sound legal theory as to why it's legal for you to host a pirated WoW server, feel free to test that in court - it should only cost you about $50k to get started on a defense.

    (I won't hold my breath)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Do donations count? They're not directly asking for a fee to play the game.

    Irrelevant. There doesn't have to be an exchange of money for infringement to happen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    the issue that would probably sink nost. et al if it ever came to an actual legal proceeding would be trademark; you might be able to construct a scenario where it's legal to operate a legacy WoW server (I highly doubt it but let's leave that aside for the moment), but you certainly cannot construct one in which it's legal to use and disseminate all of blizzard's protected marks without their permission, especially when you're essentially providing a substitute service.
    Trademark could be an issue, but I would bet a decade's worth of WoW subs that it was'nt even mentioned in the lawsuit. Look at the older cases Blizzard has brought against infringers, it's all copyright, DMCA violations, and with Scapegaming, unjust enrichment.

  19. #28779
    well yeah; as long as the DMCA exists even the copyright claims are sort of irrelevant (other than for damages), since blizzard can forestall any third party use by including encryption mechanisms in their software. I suspect blizzard (among other companies) generally opt for copyright claims because they make it easier to establish high damage figures, as in the scapegaming case (427k users x USD$200 in damages per user is easy math), but in a world or other jurisdiction that had more reasonable copyright and encryption regulations trademark would still be grounds for a C&D at least.

  20. #28780
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    well yeah; as long as the DMCA exists even the copyright claims are sort of irrelevant (other than for damages), since blizzard can forestall any third party use by including encryption mechanisms in their software. I suspect blizzard (among other companies) generally opt for copyright claims because they make it easier to establish high damage figures, as in the scapegaming case (427k users x USD$200 in damages per user is easy math), but in a world or other jurisdiction that had more reasonable copyright and encryption regulations trademark would still be grounds for a C&D at least.
    Just for shits and giggles, what's unreasonable about the current laws regarding copyright and encryption?

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