New Jersey - Fuck the middle class

[Themius]

this whole tax debate seems to showcase the issue of non millionaires fighting for the wealthy to pay less taxes. It worked out great for Mississippi.

[Kellhound]

So what? Its someone else's wealth being transferred to them. That's basically exactly what every other tax is. Why should unearned largess get to be tax free when all kinds of other stuff isn't?

Well, for one, a good amount of the tax is basically someone else's wealth being transferred to others who have not earned it and will not be taxed on it.

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If they did, then they wouldn't be inheriting it, as they would already be part owner of it.

Morally, sure, but that does not mean that is so legally.

[NineSpine]

Well, for one, a good amount of the tax is basically someone else's wealth being transferred to others who have not earned it and will not be taxed on it.

You're right. It's really a moral conundrum that fabulously rich people will have irrelevant amounts of money taxed from them to pay for other people to be able to feed themselves. What a tragedy.

[Wells]

I mean you all oppose taxing lottery winnings too right?

[NineSpine]

i mean you all oppose taxing lottery winnings too right?

what will the rich people do if they are slightly less rich?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?

[Kellhound]

What is the federal exemption amount on death tax? What about NJ?

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That's great... now answer my question...

Federal is 5.45 million, NJ is 625k (plus the inheritance tax set at 25k for many people).

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I mean no, but ok whatever. The transaction triggers and determines the tax.

The tax is determined by the amount of money.

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What is property without an enforcement mechanism? Answer: The person with a biggest stick telling everyone else what to do. That's not property. What is wealth without society? Nothing. It's meaningless.

That's still what is going on in a state.
Society =/= state.

[Cerus]

Illinois has been fighting to get gas tax over 50cents since they struggled with the budget last year. Also ya our local taxes are bullshit, down here it is 8.75%(total). Then you add in our total telecom taxes/fees of like 20% and higher.

Don't forget the 2% food and beverage tax they just passed in Carbondale which was originally 4% until local businesses raised hell. That brings the total tax in a restaurant in the 62901 zip code to 10.75%. 12.75 would have been one of the highest in the nation.

They also extended the gas tax, raised it and added a tax on package liquor sales.

Got no sympathy for ya OP. They tax the shit out of us here and we aren't even the worst. Hope ya don't buy ammo in Chicago or you'll be paying .05 per bullet in extra tax. Yeah you read that right - that 200 round box of cheap Winchester white box 9mm ammo will cost you $10 more in Chicago.

[NineSpine]

Federal is 5.45 million, NJ is 625k (plus the inheritance tax set at 25k for many people).

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The tax is determined by the amount of money.

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That's still what is going on in a state.
Society =/= state.

Which is precisely why the only moral version of the state is a democratic state that operates for the common good. A state which operates to impose a subjective moral code, such as the shit being sold here that capitalism should be used as the dominant social system, is fundamentally immoral. An analysis of how states and societies work that cannot distinguish between a totalitarian dictatorship working to enrich the dictator, and a democratic republic working to improve the common good, is not an analysis that has any value whatsoever, but that is what you are offering here.

[Wells]

The tax is determined by the amount of money.

Yes, the amount being transacted. Don't be a pedant.

Society =/= state.

Yes, it is, in a democratic nation.

[NineSpine]

Yes, the amount being transacted. Don't be a pedant.


Yes, it is, in a democratic nation.

Yeah, a state is basically a form of society.

[Linkedblade]

Furthermore, a gas tax is absolutely the best way to pay for roads. The people that use the roads pay for roads. Nothing is more fair than this.

Seems fair until you realize that most people that use NJ's highways are not newjerseyans.

[Kellhound]

I'm a fucking historian, and that argument is weak. The idea that fundamentally middle class people are sitting around on insanely valuable homes (which they are by some crazy miracle able to afford property taxes on) is totally bizarre and out of touch with reality.

Well, I have no idea what being a sex historian has to do with this, but whatever.
If your family owned a $5.5 million dollar house in Pitkin County, Colorado, your tax bill would be ~$25k. Personally, as a middle class person, I would not sell a house there that I owned free and clear, especially one with family history.

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You're right. It's really a moral conundrum that fabulously rich people will have irrelevant amounts of money taxed from them to pay for other people to be able to feed themselves. What a tragedy.

Basically you are ok with people getting money for nothing and not being taxed on it, the only issue for you is a matter of proportions.

[BannedForViews]

Seems fair until you realize that most people that use NJ's highways are not newjerseyans.

And those people pay tolls on the turnpike.

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I'm a fucking historian, and that argument is weak. The idea that fundamentally middle class people are sitting around on insanely valuable homes (which they are by some crazy miracle able to afford property taxes on) is totally bizarre and out of touch with reality.

Some states don't have property tax. Others have very low property tax. different counties etc choose to tax at different rates. You could live next to someone (like I do) that pays twice the rate in property tax that you do. Your argument fails to realize what real life is like. Your being a "historian" has nothing to do with anything, in any of what is being argued here, especially since you seem to be ignoring history at every turn.

[Masark]

I mean you all oppose taxing lottery winnings too right?

I've personally always found that somewhat odd. Lottery, etc. winnings aren't taxed up here.

OTOH, the lotteries up here (As well as the casinos around here) are run by government, so they already get their cut without needing to tax.

[Aori]

Don't forget the 2% food and beverage tax they just passed in Carbondale which was originally 4% until local businesses raised hell. That brings the total tax in a restaurant in the 62901 zip code to 10.75%. 12.75 would have been one of the highest in the nation.

They also extended the gas tax, raised it and added a tax on package liquor sales.

Got no sympathy for ya OP. They tax the shit out of us here and we aren't even the worst. Hope ya don't buy ammo in Chicago or you'll be paying .05 per bullet in extra tax. Yeah you read that right - that 200 round box of cheap Winchester white box 9mm ammo will cost you $10 more in Chicago.

Carbondale is a clusterfuck, the taxes are way to high for how rural the area is. Kind of the reason Carbondale has become a revolving door. Jobs are low wage with high requirements and minimal hours, some of the worst taxes in the nation. I guess the students are ok with it but the residents struggle with it.

[Kellhound]

Which is precisely why the only moral version of the state is a democratic state that operates for the common good. A state which operates to impose a subjective moral code, such as the shit being sold here that capitalism should be used as the dominant social system, is fundamentally immoral. An analysis of how states and societies work that cannot distinguish between a totalitarian dictatorship working to enrich the dictator, and a democratic republic working to improve the common good, is not an analysis that has any value whatsoever, but that is what you are offering here.

The US is not a democracy.

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Yes, the amount being transacted. Don't be a pedant.


Yes, it is, in a democratic nation.

The US is not a democracy, and it really isnt a nation, just a state.

[BannedForViews]

Great, we need substantially more tax money than we receive already, in order to fund the programs necessary to move forward in a world where technology creates scarcity of work. These programs include robust educational programs and minimum incomes. Now what?

This is your opinion. You are entitled to it, but you can't prove that it is true. In fact most evidence says exactly the opposite. We have substantial taxes. Most goes to wealth transfers for old people, or overspending on military, or government agencies who provide nothing of value for the cost of their existence. The government employs millions of ditch diggers, and ditches don't make our country better off.

[Kellhound]

Yeah, a state is basically a form of society.

It may be a form of society, but a state is not needed for society to exist.

[Kapadons]

Seems fair until you realize that most people that use NJ's highways are not newjerseyans.

Do they buy any gas in jersey? If so, they paid to use said roads

[Wells]

I've personally always found that somewhat odd. Lottery, etc. winnings aren't taxed up here.

OTOH, the lotteries up here (As well as the casinos around here) are run by government, so they already get their cut without needing to tax.

Yeah I mean I get not taxing lottery winnings on the same grounds we shouldn't tax government benefits I guess, but there's no real moral difference between an inheritance and a lottery.

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Do they buy any gas in jersey? If so, they paid to use said roads

You can't just dismiss through-state traffic like that.