PvE - sin or sub? (likely nerfs, or lack thereof)

[uniquesnowflakename]

I know the consensus is Sub right now because of current sims, but Sub is so far ahead with Mythic gear that it's probably safe to assume it'll get nerfed eventually. Is anyone banking on Assassination's relatively poor performance in T19M getting buffed? It seems like it could be the safer option long term, and it's ahead of both other specs in current content. It's possible that Blizzard won't be as willing to nerf once the Sub disparity fully rears its head in a month or two due to people being that much more invested in their AP, or because its performance was so bad pre-buff, but that's a risky gamble.

[shaunika123]

the only thing that might get nerfed is shadow satyr's walk since that's the only reason sub is THAT far ahead in mythic
but honestly based on this patch it's safe to assume blizz will try to keep the specs as close as humanly possible, so you're basically fine with whatever.

they might even revert the outlaw nerfs if it turns out they suck come 7.1

[TheRealTish]

it makes me lul that one of the purposes and promises blizz gave for artifacts was to not make players regret or feel punished for investing time and AP into one spec; yet here we are, trying to decide if we should play a lesser spec in the hopes blizz will probably knee jerk buff it or play the better spec in hopes that they wont kick the barrel from under our feet. It's like the opposite of what they intended. Silly blizz.

[shaunika123]

it makes me lul that one of the purposes and promises blizz gave for artifacts was to not make players regret or feel punished for investing time and AP into one spec; yet here we are, trying to decide if we should play a lesser spec in the hopes blizz will probably knee jerk buff it or play the better spec in hopes that they wont kick the barrel from under our feet. It's like the opposite of what they intended. Silly blizz.

did you expect no changes for 2 years?
the 3 specs are pretty much equal atm they will never be more equal, and they cant be really

even the smallest change will make people switch over to new specs "it's 1% better? omg the other 2 are garbage now" is not a mentality most people should follow unless they raid like top 100

[Grizvok]

did you expect no changes for 2 years?
the 3 specs are pretty much equal atm they will never be more equal, and they cant be really

even the smallest change will make people switch over to new specs "it's 1% better? omg the other 2 are garbage now" is not a mentality most people should follow unless they raid like top 100

So here's what I think would be a pretty nice system. Is that right now if you want to refund your AP on your current weapon you need as much unspent AP as what your next trait will cost. Well I think it would be pretty nice if this system was also applied to different weapons. I don't think it should be a totally free switch. Some kind of penalty is okay, but starting back from 0 is a bit ridiculous. So you should need as much AP as your next trait will cost (that AP is wiped out) for you to totally switch over all of your current AP to a new weapon. I would love to see that system or something similar. There are flaws to what I laid out, but it could be refined pretty easily I would think.

[shaunika123]

So here's what I think would be a pretty nice system. Is that right now if you want to refund your AP on your current weapon you need as much unspent AP as what your next trait will cost. Well I think it would be pretty nice if this system was also applied to different weapons. I don't think it should be a totally free switch. Some kind of penalty is okay, but starting back from 0 is a bit ridiculous. So you should need as much AP as your next trait will cost (that AP is wiped out) for you to totally switch over all of your current AP to a new weapon. I would love to see that system or something similar. There are flaws to what I laid out, but it could be refined pretty easily I would think.

you do realize that basically for that amount of AP you can get the other weapon to decently high
my 26th point costs 136k atm for 120k i can get 20 points in my sub weapon.
so it's basically almost like that already

in a couple weeks it'll be exponentially easier due to how AK works


http://media.mmo-champion.com/images...AMRGraphic.jpg

if you check this out you can see that maintaining an offspec weapon barely hinders your main one

[Kalador]

So here's what I think would be a pretty nice system. Is that right now if you want to refund your AP on your current weapon you need as much unspent AP as what your next trait will cost. Well I think it would be pretty nice if this system was also applied to different weapons. I don't think it should be a totally free switch. Some kind of penalty is okay, but starting back from 0 is a bit ridiculous. So you should need as much AP as your next trait will cost (that AP is wiped out) for you to totally switch over all of your current AP to a new weapon. I would love to see that system or something similar. There are flaws to what I laid out, but it could be refined pretty easily I would think.

you can have a MS weapon and level the 2 other without to much sacrifice. outlaw is strong with 18 points (almost no dmg gain past this till hidden trait), sin has a a strong 16 (2 golden) build or a strong 24 build (3 golden) and for sub there is a very strong 19 points ST build or a 22-23 good all around build, you can keep advancing your MS while keeping off spec to an acceptable level if you need to switch for any reason.

Here some math that prove it not that big of a deal for your MS

https://felconcentration.wordpress.c...ing-artifacts/
https://felconcentration.wordpress.c...ing-artifacts/

[mauserr]

You make a safe assumption of nerfs just 2 days after a HUGE buff of sub pve. How does that add up? Sub always goes ahead with more gear and thats fine. Outlaw is rewarding for dungeons etc sub will probably go far in raiding environments. And why are you thinking with nerfs. Why not boost the other two specs instead of killing one. Why must it always be someone must get hurt for the rest to feel ok.

He's thinking with nerfs because that's how Blizzard handles balance. Remember BRF when Demonolog was the go-to Warlock spec? Instead of buffing the underdog to a point where you could play what you wanted, they literally SHAT on it by nerfing every damaging ability by 25% and probably nerfed their mastery as well (don't quote me on that one, I don't remember it well, a minor flashback is all). It went from the go-to spec to a spec so shit you didn't want to touch it for the rest of the expansion, except for aa single boss in HFC and the moment where the pre-patch changes hit making it being carried by a tier bonus and the class trinket to a degree of so ridiculously broken you didn't use all of your rotational skills to top every fight.

Or maybe Outlaw? It was good pre-nerf, but unless you had a 6 (less than a 2% chance of that happening) buff you wouldn't look at retarded numbers like Blizz implies we were reaching and they nerfed it still instead of just bringing the two specs near Outlaw. If you didn't have any traits in the Outlaw artefact or any legendaries invested, you wouldn't want to touch it for anything other than Ilgynoth because both specs that were buffed are just better. If they buffed the other two specs without nerfing Outlaw, you would've had something resembling a very good balance - the only fight Outlaw would be stronger than these two is either on full aoe fights such as ilgynoth or when they had a 6 buff, which again, has a chance of happening smaller than 2%.

[Deleted]

It's not just AP it's legendarys too, you can never be truly optimal if this is how Rogue continues. Which sucks cause most other classes can

[shaunika123]

It's not just AP it's legendarys too, you can never be truly optimal if this is how Rogue continues. Which sucks cause most other classes can

well all 3 specs can loot insignia and cindaria which are among the best

and if you loot the boots for one of the specs you can just swap to another one

[uniquesnowflakename]

You make a safe assumption of nerfs just 2 days after a HUGE buff of sub pve. How does that add up? Sub always goes ahead with more gear and thats fine. Outlaw is rewarding for dungeons etc sub will probably go far in raiding environments. And why are you thinking with nerfs. Why not boost the other two specs instead of killing one. Why must it always be someone must get hurt for the rest to feel ok.

I see no scenario in which the current disparity between Sub and the other two specs in M19 is allowed to stand. I'm guessing either the spec itself or their legendary boots will get nerfed, probably both knowing Blizzard's usual M.O.

[shaunika123]

I see no scenario in which the current disparity between Sub and the other two specs in M19 is allowed to stand. I'm guessing either the spec itself or their legendary boots will get nerfed, probably both knowing Blizzard's usual M.O.

you've yet to see t19 sims with setbonuses, new trinkets higher AP and so on let alone logs

we'll see

also it wouldnt be the first time sub is miles ahead of anything else

and anyway based on previous experience (literally a week ago) its more likely the other 2 are getting buffed than sub getting nerfed

and the "knowing blizzard's usual MO" is kinda harsh seeing they were really timid with the outlaw nerfs.

[Deleted]

Consdering rogues are still average/below average on warcraft logs I'd expect buffs rather than nerfs.

[uniquesnowflakename]

you've yet to see t19 sims with setbonuses, new trinkets higher AP and so on let alone logs

and anyway based on previous experience (literally a week ago) its more likely the other 2 are getting buffed than sub getting nerfed

and the "knowing blizzard's usual MO" is kinda harsh seeing they were really timid with the outlaw nerfs.

What do you mean? They didn't just buff the other two, they nerfed OL's two most powerful traits and now it has gone from being the best DPS spec to the worst. It even loses out in AoE to Sub, which was its supposed niche. That doesn't instill a lot of confidence in me as as far as future balancing changes are concerned.

You are assuming that everyone playing sub has legendary so again you assume that this is a good reason to nerf the spec. Thats not theorycrafting by any shape or form thats just conclusions after 10 pints down the pub.

I think you're being overly defensive because you main Sub. If sims hold weight and Sub ends up being 120k+ damage ahead of the other two specs, something is almost guaranteed to get changed; that's a smaller disparity than OL had. We can all hope that it'll be buffs with no nerfs, but that's not what recent history supports.

Consdering rogues are still average/below average on warcraft logs I'd expect buffs rather than nerfs.

Eh, OL was never close to the top DPS when compared to other classes. It got nerfed because it was so far ahead of the other two rogue specs.

[shaunika123]

What do you mean? They didn't just buff the other two, they nerfed OL's two most powerful traits and now it has gone from being the best DPS spec to the worst. It even loses out in AoE to Sub, which was its supposed niche. That doesn't instill a lot of confidence in me as as far as future balancing changes are concerned.
.

compared to other nerfs in other expacs that 4-5% tops nerf aint that bad

[purpleblood]

compared to other nerfs in other expacs that 4-5% tops nerf aint that bad

I mean the end result is the same. Outlaw got nerfed by a "small" amount but sub and sin both got buffed by a slightly higher percentage. Outlaw and assassination were already quite close together. A "small" nerf to outlaw and a good buff to assassination just means that assassination will be better on single target. Sub also got a significant buff and when you have a legendary+880 gear it outperforms the other specs. Like i said the end result was still the same it meant that outlaw no longer on top. Excecpt if you have a legendary or get really lucky with RTB. But i wouldn't be surprised to start seeing people move away from the spec in raids and start playing sub/assassination.

[Deleted]

I mean the end result is the same. Outlaw got nerfed by a "small" amount but sub and sin both got buffed by a slightly higher percentage. Outlaw and assassination were already quite close together. A "small" nerf to outlaw and a good buff to assassination just means that assassination will be better on single target. Sub also got a significant buff and when you have a legendary+880 gear it outperforms the other specs. Like i said the end result was still the same it meant that outlaw no longer on top. Excecpt if you have a legendary or get really lucky with RTB. But i wouldn't be surprised to start seeing people move away from the spec in raids and start playing sub/assassination.

I love how people throw out arbitrary numbers like this.

When you get a legendary, and 880 gear sub is better. yesterday it was 870 and the day before that it was in the 860's without legendaries.

I'm glad outlaw came isnt the best anymore. I'm tired of RTB and im ready to settle for assassination or sub. I dont even care if they buff outlaw again. At this point steady dps is more important anyway.

[purpleblood]

I love how people throw out arbitrary numbers like this.

When you get a legendary, and 880 gear sub is better. yesterday it was 870 and the day before that it was in the 860's without legendaries.

I'm glad outlaw came isnt the best anymore. I'm tired of RTB and im ready to settle for assassination or sub. I dont even care if they buff outlaw again. At this point steady dps is more important anyway.

It's not arbitrary. Im using the numbers from Aethys spreadsheet


In mythic gear+a legendary sub starts outperforming assassination.

[shaunika123]

I mean the end result is the same. Outlaw got nerfed by a "small" amount but sub and sin both got buffed by a slightly higher percentage. Outlaw and assassination were already quite close together. A "small" nerf to outlaw and a good buff to assassination just means that assassination will be better on single target. Sub also got a significant buff and when you have a legendary+880 gear it outperforms the other specs. Like i said the end result was still the same it meant that outlaw no longer on top. Excecpt if you have a legendary or get really lucky with RTB. But i wouldn't be surprised to start seeing people move away from the spec in raids and start playing sub/assassination.

outlaw will leave assa in the dust after like 880 tho
plus the only reason sub is that far ahead is the legendary boots which are just insane. without them they're pretty close

i mean yeah sub is gonna be the best but, that's not exactly a new thing is it ^^

[Deleted]

outlaw will leave assa in the dust after like 880 tho
plus the only reason sub is that far ahead is the legendary boots which are just insane. without them they're pretty close

i mean yeah sub is gonna be the best but, that's not exactly a new thing is it ^^

Why does it seem like you keep saying something else then everyone else? What data are you using that other people dont have?

- - - Updated - - -

It's not arbitrary. Im using the numbers from Aethys spreadsheet


In mythic gear+a legendary sub starts outperforming assassination.

do you have a link for this?