No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Connll]

If its proof I'm man enough to accept it, its sounds fascinating so please, lets see the insider information you have.

OK, I´ll take your bait, despite the bad start (asking for "insider" information when one was never claimed to be had. Classy)

What do you consider proof, in the first place?

[-Joker-]

She's not entirely wrong, though. I have played the live version, and so far she's been pretty accurate. Anyway, if we start dismissing the opinions of anyone who's not currently subbed, we might as well move to the official forums.

I have to dismiss opinions rooted in speculation. I am more interested in the facts and the current state of affairs in the game. Test drive a Chevy all you like, but until you BUY the Chevy and drive it everyday, you don't really have room to stand there and tell Chevy drivers how much their chosen car sucks. We all bought Chevy for a reason. If you dislike one or more aspects, go drive a Ford, or a Honda.

[ElDoorO]

Well, I am personally unaffected by it. Like I said, I love my flying mounts and have spent 8 years collecting more than 200 of them. Mining and Herbs are now personal multi-world taps, quest mobs can be tagged for credit, and there are enough scalable zones you can start and finish anywhere you like for the first time in WoW's history.

As for seeing people in the world, I see fewer in the zones and more in Dalaran as people reach 110 and only really go to Suramar for an hour or so and then into their heroics and mythics they go. Like with all expansions, once a player reaches the cap that is good for them, just main or main with alts, most of the time is spent in world of queuecraft waiting for LFR or Heroics. So seeing "fewer" people in the world is not a sign of boredom, it is more likely a sign of completion as they move into end game.

As for your last line, the only people who want fewer people in the world are those who hate playing with others in an MMO and competing for resources and quest items. Obviously, neither of those are a concern for anyone, and have never been an issue for me. As much as I would love to delude myself into believing the zones will always be bustling, I am a realist who understands that once most players reach endgame, only the casuals and alt-o-holics will be see out in the zones with lower level characters.

You should spend more time developing your discussion and less time trying to spin a narrative by placing words in the text boxes of those with whom you are conversing.

Think through your logic a little deeper than just writing them. Seriously. Sit and think it through. This isn't "spinning a narrative" this is thinking it through.
I'm compelled to ask: Do you know what MMO stands for?

Developers they can to inhibit people from wanting to go out in the world is the opposite of what MMO's are supposed to be about.

Or we can keep our heads in the sand... w/e. We saw how well that worked for WoD though...

[Dhrizzle]

Aaaand this is what we have when you don't read what I say. I totally said that blizz was gentle till MoP. What you bring up as an example? MoP. Thanks. We got exactly nowhere.

You didn't make It clear whether you included MoP in the careful period or not with the way you said they got brutal "with and after WoD" and cited an MoP feature as part of the time they were more careful. Anyway I played it safe and only mentioned MoP when it continued serious changes from previous expansions so I'm not sure what your problem is.

Also I was talking about MMO ASPECTS. Not class tuning. In fact, I compared how they treat mmo aspects like they were mere class tuning. The fact that your tank imposes 10000% threat instead of 20% is not a drastic change. The outcome is drastic: you can tank with little effort yes. But your spells were the same as before, you just got more with expansions. Did the TAKE AWAY anything that you were fond with? Nope. Healing model also changes: yeey, oyu are jesus himself, with no mana you can heal up whole raids from 10% to 100% -> nope, you are a nurse in the ww2 who can tap some bandages on ppl and then watch the outcome. I'm not talking about these. These type of changes are ok in my book. Ripping out abilities that have been in the game for 10+ years, every damn expansion is the problem. Plus the other examples I mentioned. Like flying.
If you can't make difference between class tuning (number, rotation changes) and drastic changes to mmo aspects (including flying in wod, and to an extent atm) then you will never understand what others trying to say.
Raid changes: 40 man sounds awesome, but in reality half raid could be afk, managing raids was terrible. The size change is the reason why we have this quality of raid bosses, not like in vanilla. I think it's an awesome trade off. And I hope you know this too.
Dungeon changes: imagine a world where bc dungeons are the only type of small group content outside of raids. Yeah, wow probably wouldn't be around. Or maybe with a small playerbase. How many people do m+ only who are not raiders? There's your answer.

Edit: both the dungeon and the raid changes ultimately helped the hardcore people. For the dungeons it took some time but here we are, hardcore people have m+, and raids are in a good spot too for them. But in the meantime, the casual needed used-to-be-hardcore-only content too (easier dungeons, normal mode / 10 man mode). Otherwise no profit to make game for the hardcore.

First up I wouldn't call the fundamental changes to tanking playstyles a small matter of number tweaking, ditto for the major changes to talent trees, multiple iterations of classes and specs and the streamlining of RPG features.

Also whether you and I agree with the changes are irrelevant to the point you were trying to make, every change Blizzard makes will please some people and disappoint others. You were claiming that it's only recently that drastic changes were being made and I gave examples of major adjustments that were made a long time ago. I'd say talent changes and "guild-killing" changes to how raids work have had much harsher effects than delaying flying longer than normal.

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You would be right if the problems were unrelated to each other.

In WoD´s case, however... Many, if not all of them seem to have a commom root - the decision to cut as many corners as possible - with some things being more focused on than others. Flight, for instance, seems to be especially hated by some oft he devs.

How would you say delaying flight and developing Apexis-style quests was cutting corners compared to allowing flight and copy+pasting the daily style from the past few expansions?

[Deleted]

OK, I´ll take your bait, despite the bad start (asking for "insider" information when one was never claimed to be had. Classy)

What do you consider proof, in the first place?

Sorry you were suggesting you knew why Blizzard acted the way they did. That would suggest some form of inside information. In any case, I'm happy to entertain any proof that you have.

[-Joker-]

Think through your logic a little deeper than just writing them. Seriously. Sit and think it through. This isn't "spinning a narrative" this is thinking it through.
I'm compelled to ask: Do you know what MMO stands for?

Developers they can to inhibit people from wanting to go out in the world is the opposite of what MMO's are supposed to be about.

Or we can keep our heads in the sand... w/e. We saw how well that worked for WoD though...

MMORPG
noun
an online role-playing video game in which a very large number of people participate simultaneously.

Let's take a look at the content of Legion and see what actually requires flight:

World quests: No. Every quest giver and questing hub is located at ground level and does not require flight to access it.

Bonus objectives: No. Every objective is located at ground level and does not require flight to access it.

Treasures: No. Every treasure in the zone is reachable either by ground, via jumping puzzle, or even another mechanic such as the grappler and does not require flight to access it..

Instance Entrances: No. Unlike Uldum or Storm Peaks, every instance is ground level and easy to walk into or use LFD to engage in and doesn't require flight to access it.

Dailies: No. Every daily quest and quest hub is located at ground level and does not require flight to access it.

Major City: No. We were given portals in cities and a hearthstone to bring us back to Dal where we can also set our existing Hearth should we see fit. Flight is not needed to reach Dal on the Broken Isles.

Trainers: No. All located in Dalaran or out in zones at ground level. Flight again is not necessary.

The bulk of content is outdoors, and accessible by ground. Zones are full of alts at this point running through the content most of us have already done on our main. We're well above the 2.2M players we had prior to the pre-launch event for Legion. So at this point, I have to just assume some players are complaining about the lack of flight because they lack the motivation to even try and level without it, once or multiple times. But, as I've said before, the world holds plenty for me, and I am doing just fine atm without flight. When it releases with the 2nd part of the meta in 7.1, I will probably be one of the first to get it simply because I love flight for the speed and convenience. I'm sorry others are not motivated by the game itself, but by the shortcut mechanic which allows them to hop over 80% of the world to get in, get off, and get out.

[Connll]

How would you say delaying flight and developing Apexis-style quests was cutting corners compared to allowing flight and copy+pasting the daily style from the past few expansions?

Apexis-style quests were nothing more than repetitions of the Garrison quest campaigns. Daily quests weren´t.

Edit: not to mention that Apexis quests are generic to the extreme, something that dialies aren´t.

The attempt of flight removal would cut corners in world development, as full 3D environmets would no longer be needed.

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Sorry you were suggesting you knew why Blizzard acted the way they did. That would suggest some form of inside information.

I suggest you read my past posts. "I believe", "the most likely", "the most probable", "what probably happened", and other expressions I usually use are very different from "I know".

In any case, I'm happy to entertain any proof that you have.

And what you would consider as proof?

[Deleted]

Apexis-style quests were nothing more than repetitions of the Garrison quest campaigns. Daily quests weren´t.

Edit: not to mention that Apexis quests are generic to the extreme, something that dialies aren´t.

The attempt of flight removal would cut corners in world development, as full 3D environmets would no longer be needed.

- - - Updated - - -



I suggest you read my past posts. "I believe", "the most likely", "the most probable", "what probably happened", and other expressions I usually use are very different from "I know".



And what you would consider as proof?

I will happily accept any kind of proof you have whatsoever. Please, I'm eager to see what you have.

[ElDoorO]

Let's take a look at the content of Legion and see what actually requires flight:

World quests: No. Every quest giver and questing hub is located at ground level and does not require flight to access it.

Bonus objectives: No. Every objective is located at ground level and does not require flight to access it.

Treasures: No. Every treasure in the zone is reachable either by ground, via jumping puzzle, or even another mechanic such as the grappler and does not require flight to access it..

Instance Entrances: No. Unlike Uldum or Storm Peaks, every instance is ground level and easy to walk into or use LFD to engage in and doesn't require flight to access it.

Dailies: No. Every daily quest and quest hub is located at ground level and does not require flight to access it.

Major City: No. We were given portals in cities and a hearthstone to bring us back to Dal where we can also set our existing Hearth should we see fit. Flight is not needed to reach Dal on the Broken Isles.

Trainers: No. All located in Dalaran or out in zones at ground level. Flight again is not necessary.

The bulk of content is outdoors, and accessible by ground. Zones are full of alts at this point running through the content most of us have already done on our main. We're well above the 2.2M players we had prior to the pre-launch event for Legion. So at this point, I have to just assume some players are complaining about the lack of flight because they lack the motivation to even try and level without it, once or multiple times. But, as I've said before, the world holds plenty for me, and I am doing just fine atm without flight. When it releases with the 2nd part of the meta in 7.1, I will probably be one of the first to get it simply because I love flight for the speed and convenience. I'm sorry others are not motivated by the game itself, but by the shortcut mechanic which allows them to hop over 80% of the world to get in, get off, and get out.

That's a very dense way of looking at it. Let's think about it a littler further.

World quests: No brainer -- flying would have a good impact on keeping more people doing this. You're going to have a difficult time convincing me, which I'd like to see you try to be honest, in claiming that people will continue doing the more difficult to access quests for AP and gear they don't really need but might have a miniscule chance of being upgraded to something useful. Sorry but the effort:reward ratio is broken here and the longer we go without flying the fewer people we should expect to see out in the world. Remember WoD? Yeah, why do you think things will be different for Legion?

Bonus objectives: Flying lets you bail as soon as you're done. The people I know IRL stopped doing these because it's a pain fighting in and back out. On my alts I'm already seeing fewer people. If flying were available there'd be more people doing them for the resources.

Treasures: Much like in WoD, flying had more people grabbing them instead of saying fuck it. Again, another repeat. History is on my side here...

Instance Entrances: There's plenty of trash to get to instances for Mythics and such. There's no such thing as Have Group Will Travel anymore. So you need at least two people to use a summon stone.

Dailies: These are WQ's. Not sure why you are confusing them. Are you playing Legion?

Major City: Dalaran and Suramar. Suramar would be hugely beneficial for flying if you want people to not bail on it as soon as they get the rep they need.

Trainers: They are spread across the world for various quests and such. Yes, flying would have a significant positive impact. I'm certainly less inclined to go do the profession stuff on alts if they are going to make it more difficult to get it. I'm starting to suspect you don't play Legion. Professions are different now. You don't simply get everything from a trainer anymore.

WoD has shown that once you give out flying, people go out more and do more. Unfortunately for WoD they waited a very long time and released it when world content was fairly stale and there was only one area that flying was beneficial.

Let's also add the fact that bots / cheaters can currently fly effectively screwing over people who can't. Let's also add that there's a particular herb that's a pain to farm and is causing a non-trivial amount of drama about flasks and botters/cheaters.

It still seems quite silly to not allow it once people hit max level. Then you have alts. deep sign.

Is flying required for anything? Of course not, silly, but are we really pushing for a race to the bottom for WoW? That seems.. shallow.

I can't think of a benefit to not having flying. You seem to be focused on what it's not needed and I'm looking at it from the other side: Why is being grounded needed?

[Connll]

I will happily accept any kind of proof you have whatsoever. Please, I'm eager to see what you have.

Then tell me what you would consider proof.

[Mafic]

I will happily accept any kind of proof you have whatsoever. Please, I'm eager to see what you have.

They reversed the decision.

So where is your proof that this never happened?

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That's a very dense way of looking at it. Let's think about it a littler further.

World quests: No brainer -- flying would have a good impact on keeping more people doing this. You're going to have a difficult time convincing me, which I'd like to see you try to be honest, in claiming that people will continue doing the more difficult to access quests for AP and gear they don't really need but might have a miniscule chance of being upgraded to something useful. Sorry but the effort:reward ratio is broken here and the longer we go without flying the fewer people we should expect to see out in the world. Remember WoD? Yeah, why do you think things will be different for Legion?

Bonus objectives: Flying lets you bail as soon as you're done. The people I know IRL stopped doing these because it's a pain fighting in and back out. On my alts I'm already seeing fewer people. If flying were available there'd be more people doing them for the resources.

Treasures: Much like in WoD, flying had more people grabbing them instead of saying fuck it. Again, another repeat. History is on my side here...

Instance Entrances: There's plenty of trash to get to instances for Mythics and such. There's no such thing as Have Group Will Travel anymore. So you need at least two people to use a summon stone.

Dailies: These are WQ's. Not sure why you are confusing them. Are you playing Legion?

Major City: Dalaran and Suramar. Suramar would be hugely beneficial for flying if you want people to not bail on it as soon as they get the rep they need.

Trainers: They are spread across the world for various quests and such. Yes, flying would have a significant positive impact. I'm certainly less inclined to go do the profession stuff on alts if they are going to make it more difficult to get it. I'm starting to suspect you don't play Legion. Professions are different now. You don't simply get everything from a trainer anymore.

WoD has shown that once you give out flying, people go out more and do more. Unfortunately for WoD they waited a very long time and released it when world content was fairly stale and there was only one area that flying was beneficial.

Let's also add the fact that bots / cheaters can currently fly effectively screwing over people who can't. Let's also add that there's a particular herb that's a pain to farm and is causing a non-trivial amount of drama about flasks and botters/cheaters.

It still seems quite silly to not allow it once people hit max level. Then you have alts. deep sign.

Is flying required for anything? Of course not, silly, but are we really pushing for a race to the bottom for WoW? That seems.. shallow.

I can't think of a benefit to not having flying. You seem to be focused on what it's not needed and I'm looking at it from the other side: Why is being grounded needed?

Don't forget professions (eg gathering) and archaeology all are improved with flying. And given the RNG nature of it all flying actually helps with bad streaks of RNG because you are able to accumulate more tries in a shorter time frame than using a flight whistle + gliders. Flight whistles and gliders lack the precision and control of a flying mount.

[Dhrizzle]

Apexis-style quests were nothing more than repetitions of the Garrison quest campaigns. Daily quests weren´t.

No they weren't, the garrison campaign quests had set objectives tied together by quest-givers using the standard quest UI. The Apexis zones had a points system where you got different points for various objectives and completed the quest when you hit 100.

Edit: not to mention that Apexis quests are generic to the extreme, something that dialies aren´t.

Now we both know that's nonsense. Most dailies have been generic shopping lists of kill x, collect y, use z. The only difference between them and regular quests is the colour of the quest-givers exclamation points. I understand that a lot of people didn't like the Apexis quests but you can't deny it was a radical departure from the old style of dailies, and that's before you get on to the mechanics unique to each one.

The attempt of flight removal would cut corners in world development, as full 3D environmets would no longer be needed.

Other than the fact that no-one in this thread has offered any evidence that designing and testing a stage-illusion is any easier than simply designing a building, WoD needed full 3D zones because of items like gliders and the feather so I'm still not sure what corners you are referring to.

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They reversed the decision.

So where is your proof that this never happened?

It's not about what happened, we all know that Blizzard reverted from "no flight ever" and gave us Pathfinder, Connl is offering proof as to the reasons Blizz made that decision.

[Connll]

No they weren't, the garrison campaign quests had set objectives tied together by quest-givers using the standard quest UI. The Apexis zones had a points system where you got different points for various objectives and completed the quest when you hit 100.

OK, the Apexis quests were an inferior, watered down version of the Garrions campaign.

So, in other words, repetition, but worse.

Now we both know that's nonsense. Most dailies have been generic shopping lists of kill x, collect y, use z. The only difference between them and regular quests is the colour of the quest-givers exclamation points. I understand that a lot of people didn't like the Apexis quests but you can't deny it was a radical departure from the old style of dailies, and that's before you get on to the mechanics unique to each one.

Bullshit.

Every daily quest was unique. Every daily quest was immersed in the lore of the game (Icerown dailies, Klaxxi dilies, for instance). Many Dailies had unique mechanics in order to complete them. (Bombing runs, in BC; racing daily for Netherwing; Riding giant bug for the Klaxxi; Spearing and butchering a proto-drake Kratos-style for the Sons of Hodir).

The Apexis? They´re nearly identical: All of them, ALL of them had the xact same objective: go to an area, kill stuff , or click random stuff until the bar fills.

And thats it.

Other than the fact that no-one in this thread has offered any evidence that designing and testing a stage-illusion is any easier than simply designing a building, WoD needed full 3D zones because of items like gliders and the feather so I'm still not sure what corners you are referring to.

Yet the devs took months to fix the world in order to make it flight-capable after 6.2.

Yet the feather could find invisible wall every now and then, in select places. I doubt that the glides wouldn´t run into those, every now and then.

It's not about what happened, we all know that Blizzard reverted from "no flight ever" and gave us Pathfinder, Connl is offering proof as to the reasons Blizz made that decision.

Holy crap.

I say, in page 551, post nº 11010:

Nothing the likes of you would accept as proof or even evidence.

And you read "offering proof as to the reasons blizz made that decision"

WoW, man.

Option b)

Again.

[Lei]

First up I wouldn't call the fundamental changes to tanking playstyles a small matter of number tweaking, ditto for the major changes to talent trees, multiple iterations of classes and specs and the streamlining of RPG features.

You don't mention timeframe for neither of these examples. Also is it only nobrainer for me that in vanilla, they put all these classes and specs into the game, half of them weren't even playable, let alone their talent trees, so NATURALLY it required balance, and tweaking.
Would you like to play a tank today that can't aoe tank? Or a healer that has no healing cd?
But it is also nobrainer for me that the WoD/Legion changes are not mere tweakings. They are brand new ideas, and they threw old things into the trash, by that I mean some of the old ideas were just from 2 years ago. Will we see another bunch of 1 expac long spells? We are not going uphill anymore, this is chaotic.
Talent changes: OH.MY.GOD. I can't talent into 5/5 faster healing waves anymore, or talent to get Riptide. Oh wait, I do have Riptide!
I loved the old talents, but I'm OK with having these now. I mean this is now the 3rd iteration of these new new new talents, which goes back to this chaotic "just make changes!" type of development I mentioned. But otherwise, meh.

Also whether you and I agree with the changes are irrelevant to the point you were trying to make, every change Blizzard makes will please some people and disappoint others.

This is true. But this being true doesn't make my statement/feelings false.

[-Joker-]

That's a very dense way of looking at it. Let's think about it a littler further.

World quests: No brainer -- flying would have a good impact on keeping more people doing this. You're going to have a difficult time convincing me, which I'd like to see you try to be honest, in claiming that people will continue doing the more difficult to access quests for AP and gear they don't really need but might have a miniscule chance of being upgraded to something useful. Sorry but the effort:reward ratio is broken here and the longer we go without flying the fewer people we should expect to see out in the world. Remember WoD? Yeah, why do you think things will be different for Legion?

Bonus objectives: Flying lets you bail as soon as you're done. The people I know IRL stopped doing these because it's a pain fighting in and back out. On my alts I'm already seeing fewer people. If flying were available there'd be more people doing them for the resources.

Treasures: Much like in WoD, flying had more people grabbing them instead of saying fuck it. Again, another repeat. History is on my side here...

Instance Entrances: There's plenty of trash to get to instances for Mythics and such. There's no such thing as Have Group Will Travel anymore. So you need at least two people to use a summon stone.

Dailies: These are WQ's. Not sure why you are confusing them. Are you playing Legion?

Major City: Dalaran and Suramar. Suramar would be hugely beneficial for flying if you want people to not bail on it as soon as they get the rep they need.

Trainers: They are spread across the world for various quests and such. Yes, flying would have a significant positive impact. I'm certainly less inclined to go do the profession stuff on alts if they are going to make it more difficult to get it. I'm starting to suspect you don't play Legion. Professions are different now. You don't simply get everything from a trainer anymore.

WoD has shown that once you give out flying, people go out more and do more. Unfortunately for WoD they waited a very long time and released it when world content was fairly stale and there was only one area that flying was beneficial.

Let's also add the fact that bots / cheaters can currently fly effectively screwing over people who can't. Let's also add that there's a particular herb that's a pain to farm and is causing a non-trivial amount of drama about flasks and botters/cheaters.

It still seems quite silly to not allow it once people hit max level. Then you have alts. deep sign.

Is flying required for anything? Of course not, silly, but are we really pushing for a race to the bottom for WoW? That seems.. shallow.

I can't think of a benefit to not having flying. You seem to be focused on what it's not needed and I'm looking at it from the other side: Why is being grounded needed?

So, you and others like you are not looking for compelling adventures. You are looking for easy routes, fast tracks, and gear/gold to rain down from the heavens. This is where we will just have to agree to disagree. I can't see any constructive discussion happening as long as the extremist pro-fliers keep their eyes focused on a flying mount, instead of the world designed for the mount.

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Don't forget professions (eg gathering) and archaeology all are improved with flying. And given the RNG nature of it all flying actually helps with bad streaks of RNG because you are able to accumulate more tries in a shorter time frame than using a flight whistle + gliders. Flight whistles and gliders lack the precision and control of a flying mount.

Of course everything is made EASIER with flight. There is no denying that. We're just trying to establish if the lack of flight is upsetting because of the loss of ease, the inability to just be lazy, or a combination of the two.

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Is flying required for anything? Of course not, silly, but are we really pushing for a race to the bottom for WoW? That seems.. shallow.

I can't think of a benefit to not having flying. You seem to be focused on what it's not needed and I'm looking at it from the other side: Why is being grounded needed?

I retract my prior statement and want to return to visit this for a moment. WoW is only a race to the finish for those who make it a race. But, those who already have multiple 110s, myself included, did so without flight. So the race analogy is a poor one.

The only benefit to not having flight is the ability to open your eyes and experience the world around you. While a helicopter ride past the grand canyon is fun, there is so much to be said for taking a horseback ride down into the canyon to camp for the night. The thing you seem to be missing is: NEITHER OF US IS WRONG. The only thing we truly differ on is my ability to accept the lack of flight until the meta unlocks with 7.1. Once that happens, I am flying everywhere I go. But until that happens, I am seeing the Broken Isles from its intended perspective.

There are two ways to see Dalaran:

From above


and from the street


Same tower... two different perspectives. Best part about my perspective is, it is not one sided and one side does not ruin the other.

[Mafic]

You don't mention timeframe for neither of these examples. Also is it only nobrainer for me that in vanilla, they put all these classes and specs into the game, half of them weren't even playable, let alone their talent trees, so NATURALLY it required balance, and tweaking.
Would you like to play a tank today that can't aoe tank? Or a healer that has no healing cd?
But it is also nobrainer for me that the WoD/Legion changes are not mere tweakings. They are brand new ideas, and they threw old things into the trash, by that I mean some of the old ideas were just from 2 years ago. Will we see another bunch of 1 expac long spells? We are not going uphill anymore, this is chaotic.
Talent changes: OH.MY.GOD. I can't talent into 5/5 faster healing waves anymore, or talent to get Riptide. Oh wait, I do have Riptide!
I loved the old talents, but I'm OK with having these now. I mean this is now the 3rd iteration of these new new new talents, which goes back to this chaotic "just make changes!" type of development I mentioned. But otherwise, meh.


This is true. But this being true doesn't make my statement/feelings false.

WoD/Legion ideas have failed or zfd in the process of failing, because I have said this thousands of times. To make WoW without flying mounts work you would have to dramatically change the game to the point it no longer resembles WoW. One could argue Legion is nothing like old WoW, but I disagree as there is evidence the devs want to straddle that fence. That fence being trying to appease those that never liked the traditional WoW (flying mounts, daily system, talent system, badge system) versus gating the traditional WoW through the new WoW (eg garrisons/order halls/shipyards). Gating old WoW via new WoW builds resentment and shows great disdain for loyal customers.

Flying mounts is what defines WoW, because all other activities depending upon such a travel system (eg archaeology, professions, pet collector, achievement hunters, explorers, questers, etc). Removal of flight impacts all those aspects and gimmicks can not replace or add value for each of these sub systems that are not related to raiding/rated PVP.

Without flying WoW is simply a lobby game for rated PVP and raiding which is less than 1/3 of the playing population easily.

[Thimagryn]

You would be right if the problems were unrelated to each other.

In WoD´s case, however... Many, if not all of them seem to have a commom root - the decision to cut as many corners as possible - with some things being more focused on than others. Flight, for instance, seems to be especially hated by some oft he devs.

Conspiracy theories you can't prove don't lend to your argument. We may as well place the blame on WoW's downfall to Activision's CEO. What's the point?

Let's put it this way - Even if the common root were that flight was prolonged because they cut corners, you still wouldn't have gotten flight any sooner and WoW wouldn't have been better for having it any sooner. Flight is a non issue in that aspect of discussion. You're saying they cut corners therefore it must mean the content itself is either lacking or incomplete. How does flight help that? By making little/bad content easier to do?

Garrisons are a large part of this 'WoD Doctrine' argument you bring up. Let's say we have flight. Now what? Professions were still destroyed with garrisons, and it was such an integral feature that few people had incentive to go out in the world anyways. So yes, these issues are all interconnected, but flight would not have improved any of those aspects. All flight would provide is a convenient distraction from a host of other unrelated problems with WoD.

Even if Blizzard hadn't cut corners, flight would not be anywhere sooner. Just look now at Legion. They are providing more content at a more consistent basis, resolving many of the 'WoD Doctrine' problems. Where is your flight now? Oh right, exactly where they explained it will be - in a future patch, before the final patch.

[Connll]

Conspiracy theories you can't prove don't lend to your argument. We may as well place the blame on WoW's downfall to Activision's CEO. What's the point?

Conspiracy theories? That´s Bold statement that does not lend to your argument.

May I ask you what is your point? It seems that you don´t think they tried to cut as many corners as possible in WoD, but I don´t think someone would try to press that claim

Let's put it this way - Even if the common root were that flight was prolonged because they cut corners, you still wouldn't have gotten flight any sooner and WoW wouldn't have been better for having it any sooner.

Right on the flight part: As I said before, at least some of the devs seem to harbor an irrational hatred for flight, so they would still lie their ass off, in order to make excuses to avoid bringing it back, just like they did.

Wrong on the rest. Many people in this thread stated that WoD has become better, or at least bearable, after flight has been added back. And even if you don´t believe them, Flight does add value to the game. Period.

You're saying they cut corners therefore it must mean the content itself is either lacking or incomplete. How does flight help that? By making little/bad content easier to do?

Yes.

Garrisons are a large part of this 'WoD Doctrine' argument you bring up. Let's say we have flight. Now what? Professions were still destroyed with garrisons, and it was such an integral feature that few people had incentive to go out in the world anyways. So yes, these issues are all interconnected, but flight would not have improved any of those aspects. All flight would provide is a convenient distraction from a host of other unrelated problems with WoD.

Now that Flight is back, going to the world is no longer such a chore. So after you have finished collecting your Garrison resources for the day, you will probably not feel so uninterested to go out to the world.

Even if Blizzard hadn't cut corners, flight would not be anywhere sooner. Just look now at Legion.

As I said before, there are some of the devs that harbor an irrational hatred for Flight.

They are providing more content at a more consistent basis, resolving many of the 'WoD Doctrine' problems.

Lol, man, you´re funny.

Where is your flight now? Oh right, exactly where they explained it will be - in a future patch, before the final patch.

And players are starting to feel the burnout from Legion. Sub Losses incoming. Ben counters forcing the devs hand again? Soon, probably.

[-Joker-]

To make WoW without flying mounts work you would have to dramatically change the game to the point it no longer resembles WoW.

Let's see what would need to be modified for WoW to work without flight:

1. Paths/teleport pads should be placed at the base of high questing points. This would affect Storm Peaks, Netherstorm, and Uldum.

2. Flight paths could be sped up, even if they never went in a straight line.

3. Allow hearthstones to work at any Inn, not just one it is tied to. (Scroll of Town Portal style)

4. Certain instances would have to remove the flight element, but it likely would not be a big concern.

Aside from that, there are no real changes. 98% of quests do not involve flight, no objectives require flight, and treasures are all reachable from the ground. We'd still have dragons to ride, but they might look a bit funny on the ground, so they would likely be swapped out for something ground worthy. like other pieces of ingame transport not yet available to the players like:

A Gilnean Stagecoach: This would be a 6 passenger mount. 2 up front, 2 up top, and two on the back


The Spider Tank from the Gnomeregan invasion


Mine cart: Only usable in caverns (like the turtle in water). Increases underground speed by 60%



Personal boat (Thousand Needles): 2-4 passenger water craft usable in any water area in the open world.


Goblin Hotrod: 1-4 passengers


Horde Caravan: 1-4 passengers, towed by Kodo


Alliance Seige tank Wintergrasp: 1-3 players


Horde tank Wintergrasp:


Unlock the AQ bugs to be used in the open world:


An underground tram system that uses the Ulduar Train:


Galleon Guild Mount: Carry 1-25 players


And finally, science experiments in New Tinkertown have gone seriously wrong, and Battle Pets are now becoming larger than life, just like the magic rooster. Only now, there are rabbits, foxes, springpaw cubs, dire wolves, and more that are now ridiculously large and ready to be saddled. There are plenty of mount ideas that already exist in game. Doesn't even require them to add new artwork, or items. Simply add the player casting option.

[Deleted]

Then tell me what you would consider proof.

For someone who moans about Blizzard blocking flying to slow people down you sure like to waste time.

As I keep telling you, I will accept any kind of proof that you have. Just tell me what you have.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not about what happened, we all know that Blizzard reverted from "no flight ever" and gave us Pathfinder, Connl is offering proof as to the reasons Blizz made that decision.

Except he wont, or cant I don't know which....well I think we do know which but its fun watching him talk bollocks.