is there still hope for wet noodles?.. i meant veng dh

[Struggle]

No one is declining Vengeance for Mythics.

And your survivability is still notably above Blood and Brew. Drop the woe is me act.

Yet blood and brew are easier for me to heal on my shaman than I am to heal on my DH that has little to no haste/vers gear.

Spare me your WoL links. Vengeance is fucking terrible right now and no one would bring one given the option of a druid/warr/paladin of 10-15ilvl difference. No one that knew any better anyways.

[Deleted]

Spare me your WoL links. Vengeance is fucking terrible right now and no one would bring one given the option of a druid/warr/paladin of 10-15ilvl difference. No one that knew any better anyways.

That's because healing is a dogshit defense when all content damage is reduced to "It hits like two fucking trucks and it's going to 3 shot you", making BDK's and VDH's defense even more dogshit than it is. Even then, Vengeance is basically goodBDK. Hell, you can even talent into a shittier gorefiend's.

[Dehdamned]

If nobody is declining vengence then why do I have difficulty finding groups at 855 ilvl? I que up i get declined almost always instantly. Or it just sits there till it auto declines. This happens to me an insanr ammount. My buddy is a prot paladin and doesnt experience this problem at all. But my vengence friends and brew friends do.

Yeah I was wondering about this. Ive seen this as well. Had some difficulties getting into regular m2/m3 this weekend (im at 855)
Tbh I think it's more because people can't play the class properly. Played with a healer that said I took least damage of all DH tanks he had ever played with. "All DH tanks are shit" was the exact phrasing.

I don't know about other classes. Maybe they don't have to use DS/something similar as often as we do for mitigation?
I think, people playing veng probably save them for way too long instead of keep popping them whenever available.

[Photek]

Even ursoc isn't that good because the bleed tank will always take more damage, but the bleed tank is usually the tank with more mitigation.

What? Both tanks take about the same amount of Rend Flesh and neither can waste mitigation on it. Ursoc's melees, cacophonys and overwhelms are way scarier. I wish Ursoc's highest damage was the bleed that bear hits like a truck.

[Boyiee]

We are doing H Ursoc with me as VDH and a BRM, it is absolutely hell. I tried changing talents around for it which seemed to help, anyone got any other ideas? Having no trouble with anything else other than him.

[Droodid]

I tanked a Mythic+5 Vault of the Wardens last night and it was an absolute shit show. The incoming damage, with DS and the 840 shielding trinket, just dropped me from 100% to about 10% instantly. Once I and the Healer got me back to about 75% the same amount of incoming damage took me back down to where my cheat death activated. I hadn't really had any issues up until the 10% nerf, then DS nerf. Looking at 7.1 changes, they're going to be nerfing quite a few more things. I'm thinking it's time to ditch my DH unfortunately until they stabilize them. They're so fun to play in open world, but anything slightly hard hitting just wrecks us.

[Holofernes]

If nobody is declining vengence then why do I have difficulty finding groups at 855 ilvl? I que up i get declined almost always instantly. Or it just sits there till it auto declines. This happens to me an insanr ammount. My buddy is a prot paladin and doesnt experience this problem at all. But my vengence friends and brew friends do.

you choose to play the class that most idiots play. thats why, its nor your classes performance, its the overall performance of people that play/ are drewn to the class. If u choose to play the "new shiny kiddy" class, expect beeing treated as such.

[Tezrex]

you choose to play the class that most idiots play. thats why, its nor your classes performance, its the overall performance of people that play/ are drewn to the class. If u choose to play the "new shiny kiddy" class, expect beeing treated as such.

Why does it have to be a kiddy class? I would venture to say that Havoc has a higher skill cap than a lot of other specs in the game, but you wouldn't actually care. Why would something that is new have to be less effective? Nobody is bashing on you for your choice in class so please leave that kind of negativity out of this thread.

[Jazzhands]

What? Both tanks take about the same amount of Rend Flesh and neither can waste mitigation on it. Ursoc's melees, cacophonys and overwhelms are way scarier. I wish Ursoc's highest damage was the bleed that bear hits like a truck.

Uhm.... Pretty much any log has Rend Flesh/Melee damage as the highest two, Overwhelm itself isn't scary, it's debuff is, and cocophony is pretty much at the bottom for tanks along with Barreling impact.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...en&options=128

You are right about the Bleed being more evenly spread that I thought, Warcraftlogs has an interesting bug or something where if you load into the damage taken page (like that link should do for you), you have to go to a different tab, and then back to damage taken for it to apply things like warriors or DKs absorb, some logs look really skewed until you do that.

The log I posted shows the DH taking almost twice as much rend flesh and melee, until you swap tabs and back, then they both look pretty much even.

[Photek]

Uhm.... Pretty much any log has Rend Flesh/Melee damage as the highest two, Overwhelm itself isn't scary, it's debuff is, and cocophony is pretty much at the bottom for tanks along with Barreling impact.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...en&options=128

You are right about the Bleed being more evenly spread that I thought, Warcraftlogs has an interesting bug or something where if you load into the damage taken page (like that link should do for you), you have to go to a different tab, and then back to damage taken for it to apply things like warriors or DKs absorb, some logs look really skewed until you do that.

The log I posted shows the DH taking almost twice as much rend flesh and melee, until you swap tabs and back, then they both look pretty much even.

The combination of all 3 is what is scary. Take into account that Rend Flesh is still behind normal melee attacks and we are using AM while tanking Ursoc and almost nothing for Rend Flesh, that's what I meant.

[Deleted]

Are you trying to argue we take the same damage as they do before ignore pain? Because that's what the log you linked says.

Also Nythendra is pretty much a dream for Vengeance, doesn't hit hard so it cannot do any burst damage, has very short tanking windows combined with lots of casting times so you very easily get 100% demon spikes uptime when it matters, and the magical "bursts" line up pretty much perfectly with Empower Wards (not like, say, Xavius, where you take consistent magic damage for a long period). It's also one of the few encounters where your mobility actually helps (leaps). I have no idea how you'd think Nythendra is "even playing field". It's a dream fight for Vengeance that plays perfectly to our strengths.

In any case, why is this discussion even about damage taken? Who cares about damage taken? Unless you are a really clear outlier and barely take anything/take way more, damage taken has always been a useless metric since all that matters (from a survival standpoint) has always been spikiness, and will always be regardless of bullshit blizzard claims of "triage healing" every expansion.

[Beet]

Celestalon plays a guardian druid, which may or may not come to you as a huge surprise. He ditched his old BrM main in the WoD-> Legion transition. He also believes DKs and DHs to still be too strong, even in their current laughable state. Something something HPS.

You're welcome.

Do you really believe this? Like for real? You think he plays one spec/class only and because of this he wants it to be the best of all? This is the same shit they said with Ghostcrawler. And Kalgan before him. And Fangtooth before him. For GC it was him playing a Mage so they were OP. For Kalgan it was a warrior.

The best part of it was, GC never even played a Mage.

My point in the end is, devs don't develop the game single handedly. And they don't balance based on what they enjoy playing when they do play. That would be a horrible business model and the game wouldn't ever be as big as it is if the team was the dumb.

[Deleted]

Do you really believe this? Like for real? You think he plays one spec/class only and because of this he wants it to be the best of all? This is the same shit they said with Ghostcrawler. And Kalgan before him. And Fangtooth before him. For GC it was him playing a Mage so they were OP. For Kalgan it was a warrior.

The best part of it was, GC never even played a Mage.

My point in the end is, devs don't develop the game single handedly. And they don't balance based on what they enjoy playing when they do play. That would be a horrible business model and the game wouldn't ever be as big as it is if the team was the dumb.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...trylian/simple

you're welcome, his characters aren't even a secret

also https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueofleg...zkp6?context=3 , i can't say i'm aware of all the intricacies within their team but i've been much closer than the average person and i can safely say they are biased as fuck. you are free to have a high opinion of them as unbiased masterminds, the actual reality is that they are throwing darts and generally seeing only their point of view

[Beet]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...trylian/simple

you're welcome, his characters aren't even a secret

That means what exactly? He plays it. Awesome. You're also ignoring the other facts I brought up. If you see every single lead developer playing guardian Druid then sure maybe there's a bias. If they're retarded at their job anyways.

[scaphism]

If nobody is declining vengence then why do I have difficulty finding groups at 855 ilvl? I que up i get declined almost always instantly. Or it just sits there till it auto declines. This happens to me an insanr ammount. My buddy is a prot paladin and doesnt experience this problem at all. But my vengence friends and brew friends do.

people are usually pretty stupid they dont list it but most mythic groups i run into want to stack an armor type. i hate to say it but just start your own groups. If people leave the group once they see its a dh tank then maybe you have an issue.

[Deleted]

That means what exactly? He plays it. Awesome. You're also ignoring the other facts I brought up. If you see every single lead developer playing guardian Druid then sure maybe there's a bias. If they're retarded at their job anyways.

do you really expect me to link private logs and conversations on mmoc?

[shonist]

i honestly think that the problem gear are the stats on the gear... i have 25% critic at 851 and im not giving up stats for ilvl. its just i always had a lot of crit and that isnt changing... have 3% vers so 1.5% less damage taken. out of demon spikes im squishy as fck,

im having a better time with my prot pally.

[Beet]

do you really expect me to link private logs and conversations on mmoc?

Why not? Or PM me. I'd actually love to see those if you're not just messing with me.

[Holofernes]

Why does it have to be a kiddy class? I would venture to say that Havoc has a higher skill cap than a lot of other specs in the game, but you wouldn't actually care. Why would something that is new have to be less effective? Nobody is bashing on you for your choice in class so please leave that kind of negativity out of this thread.

yep one of the skillcaps is not felrushing into adds, or onehitting cleave abilities on higher myth instances, but if u ever tank , u notice it happens alot.

[Tezrex]

yep one of the skillcaps is not felrushing into adds, or onehitting cleave abilities on higher myth instances, but if u ever tank , u notice it happens alot.

This last week I tanked probably around 25 mythic+ dungeons as Vengeance. I struggled finding a group as Havoc, but I almost got an instant invite to any group I applied to as a tank. I guess I haven't noticed the problem.