No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Beazy]

Citation needed.

http://www.polygon.com/2015/5/22/864...mo-pc-blizzard

Here, it looks like reading isn't your strong point, so I pulled out the pertinent text from the article.
"The world feels larger, feels more dangerous," he says. "There's more room for exploration, for secrets, for discovery and overall immersion in the world. At this point, we feel that outdoor gameplay in World of Warcraft is ultimately better without flying. We're not going to be reintroducing the ability to fly in Draenor, and that's kind of where we're at going forward."

And here is the statement of it coming back about two weeks later:
http://blizzardwatch.com/2015/06/10/...oming-draenor/

I have a few more citations is you're having trouble reading these links. Let me know, Ill be here all day.

[Ordinator]

Blizzard: No more flying, ever. We believe this is what is best for the game.
Players: We are not happy.
Blizzard: OK, flying is back.

Player: We want no flying at max level in relevant content.
Blizzard: okay. Most players prefer this game design.


I can do that too. Just maybe you might understand you can't claim something happened because of something without facts.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.polygon.com/2015/5/22/864...mo-pc-blizzard

Here, it looks like reading isn't your strong point, so I pulled out the pertinent text from the article.
"The world feels larger, feels more dangerous," he says. "There's more room for exploration, for secrets, for discovery and overall immersion in the world. At this point, we feel that outdoor gameplay in World of Warcraft is ultimately better without flying. We're not going to be reintroducing the ability to fly in Draenor, and that's kind of where we're at going forward."

And here is the statement of it coming back about two weeks later:
http://blizzardwatch.com/2015/06/10/...oming-draenor/

I have a few more citations is you're having trouble reading these links. Let me know, Ill be here all day.

Jesus. I don't need a citation for the fact they changed design. Pro flyers are claiming they know why. I want proof. Not subjective bias bullshit.

[Beazy]

Player: We want no flying at max level in relevant content.
Blizzard: okay. Most players prefer this game design.


I can do that too. Just maybe you might understand you can't claim something happened because of something without facts.

- - - Updated - - -



Jesus. I don't need a citation for the fact they changed design. Pro flyers are claiming they know why. I want proof. Not subjective bias bullshit.

You're a fucking moron if you think the lead developer nixed flying and brought it back two weeks later 'just cuz'. That's absolute dip shittery. The massive backlash from no flying was the reason. It's not even debatable.

Ian specified in a twitch.tv interview that "the decision to bring back flying was the communities".


You should stick with the "but but but it ruined world pvp" narrative.

INFRACTION

[Idoru]

Jesus. I don't need a citation for the fact they changed design. Pro flyers are claiming they know why. I want proof. Not subjective bias bullshit.

And I want proof that flying is bad for the game. No anti-flyer (not even Blizzard) has provided anything but subjective biased BS.

[Ordinator]

You're a fucking moron if you think the lead developer nixed flying and brought it back two weeks later 'just cuz'. That's absolute dip shittery. The massive backlash from no flying was the reason. It's not even debatable.

Ian specified in a twitch.tv interview that "the decision to bring back flying was the communities".


You should stick with the "but but but it ruined world pvp" narrative.

If there was a "massive backlash" you would be on a flying mount right now in game. Now I'm done entertaining the idea that you can pass your feelings and suspicions as fact.

[Beazy]

If there was a "massive backlash" you would be on a flying mount right now in game. Now I'm done entertaining the idea that you can pass your feelings and suspicions as fact.

Ok, Im sure Ian was lying in the interview when he said the reason they brought it back was the community.

I didn't know you knew more than the lead developer of WoW. Thank god you cleared that up. Phew.

/fistbump

[Mafic]

I dont think the cost of herbs and ore are so dependant on flying/noflying as you might think. People have accumulated so much gold during draenor and also during levelling in Legion, and i believe that the raiding guilds buy up alot aswell and they buy what is cheapest on the auctionhouse at the time they need it and they need alot. And sure there will be more herbs/ore when flying hits but i think the prices will drop before the flying hits, way before.

Blizzard can increase drop rate and/or bring back flying.

Right now, they are willing to sit on flying for half an expansion and they just nerfed herbalism again. So at this point Blizzard's number one goal is to slow down player consumption.

Honestly, flying isn't going to speed up player consumption but actually increase re play value for alts and gathering professions IMVHO. This is why flying isn't a gold star giimick to be given at the end of the expansion as it is a valuable exploration tool and convenience.

- - - Updated - - -

You're a fucking moron if you think the lead developer nixed flying and brought it back two weeks later 'just cuz'. That's absolute dip shittery. The massive backlash from no flying was the reason. It's not even debatable.

Ian specified in a twitch.tv interview that "the decision to bring back flying was the communities".


You should stick with the "but but but it ruined world pvp" narrative.

Yeah Ordinator has been trolling for quite a while now. He isn't here for a discussion.

[Thimagryn]

Games are also more enjoyable with cheat codes. But in most cases, cheat codes in an MMO would simply make the player unsub for the last 18 months of the game. WoW is a timesink. The more time you spend, the longer you must stay subbed. The longer you are subbed, the more Blizzard makes. Last time any of us checked, Blizz is not a non-profit LLC. We're getting flight... eventually.

Again, the issue with flight is not coming from players not wanting it. It's not a cheat code, and comparing it to one is ridiculous. Flight doesn't impact other people's enjoyment of the game the same way a cheat would. Botting has clear negative effects. Flight simply impacts the individual user. Blizzard's own reasoning to withhold flying is to have as many people possible complete world content, and that means no flight to keep everyone on the same level.

Your assertion that players would unsub because of cheat codes is also way overblown. Botting already exists. People finding exploits exist. It's all pretty damn low on the list of reasons to unsub.

But as Rebecca put it, the best thing to do is vote with your wallet and don't buy or sub until the 2nd part of the Pathfinder is unlocked and released.

I've been preaching that far longer than Rebecca. I'm already there, I haven't subbed back for reasons beyond just flight being back. I'll wait until there's content for me to consume that isn't being artificially gated or prolonged. I don't think it's within our control to convince Blizzard to change how they wish to design their game. If gating and withholding features is in their best interest, then so is not subbing until it's within my best interest.

[TheRealTish]

And I want proof that flying is bad for the game. No anti-flyer (not even Blizzard) has provided anything but subjective biased BS.

I don't think it's either bad nor good. I do however think that flying should be an end content privilege that forces players to experience all the content that Blizzard spent millions of dollars on to produce. Flying can produce good micro transactions for Blizz too when they put flying mounts in store, and is a gold dump for in-game on bmah. I think what most folks who are "anti-flying" simply argue that the game should be played and experienced rather than /afk auto fly over all the content blizzard produced for this xpac. They did a stellar job on the zones, and they want people to experience them rather than fly over them. I expect another pathfinder type deal forcing players to complete all the content before flying.

Short Story; why does flying have to be good or bad? Why cant it just be worked into the content?

[Idoru]

If there was a "massive backlash" you would be on a flying mount right now in game. Now I'm done entertaining the idea that you can pass your feelings and suspicions as fact.

If flying was bad for the game they would have stuck to their decision to remove it. Unless they don't actually care about what's good or bad for the game.

But since you worship facts, http://www.wowhead.com/news=247922/d...-post-q-a-show

The consensus at the time was No Flying. After that, we heard feedback about the word "never" being a very powerful word.

Now, please don't make me explain what "feedback" means.

[Mafic]

I wouldn't be so sure that Blizzard wouldn't change their original plans. Who is telling you that they won't change plans and release flight earlier?
And don't answer with "common sense" since you showed at a lot of times that you are missing it when it comes to flight.

Yeah it has been shown repeatedly they can change their plans.

Prestige system? Didn't even make it one month before they announced changes for 7.1 So, the release of flight isn't set in stone and this is why consistent feedback is important as to why flight is integral to WoW's endgame non instanced world.

[Idoru]

Short Story; why does flying have to be good or bad? Why cant it just be worked into the content?

This is what I want.

[Mafic]

I don't think it's either bad nor good. I do however think that flying should be an end content privilege that forces players to experience all the content that Blizzard spent millions of dollars on to produce. Flying can produce good micro transactions for Blizz too when they put flying mounts in store, and is a gold dump for in-game on bmah. I think what most folks who are "anti-flying" simply argue that the game should be played and experienced rather than /afk auto fly over all the content blizzard produced for this xpac. They did a stellar job on the zones, and they want people to experience them rather than fly over them. I expect another pathfinder type deal forcing players to complete all the content before flying.

Short Story; why does flying have to be good or bad? Why cant it just be worked into the content?

WoW's PVE game is boring. I am not interested in experience it. I can think of way more fun PVE based free 2 play, freemiums or even B2P that offer a better PVE experience.

The shelf life of WoW's world content is one month max as past expansions and Legion explicitly shows.

[Dhrizzle]

WoW no longer has a poor travel system. With new Dalaran, not only do we have portals to all 4 major cities, and the vale, but the hall of guardians offers another 5 portals everywhere including CoT, Ancient Dalaran, Wyrmrest Temple, and more. Once in SW or Org, there are still portals to all of the cata zones, and if you need Dalaran-Northrend, you simply take the Vale portal from new Dal, and run upstairs. There are so many ways to rush around Azeroth, flight feels less like empowerment and more like a footnote. This doesn't even count the Garrison hearthstone, and Ashran with all of it's portals, and the other two portals in the Mage tower. Plus for 10g, you can teleport from the Vale to Ratchet, and then hop a boat to booty bay.

As you mentioned it, travel in Vanilla. If you made a Night Elf, but wanted to get to Stormwind, you had to run on foot to Darnasus, then on foot to the boat, then on foot from Menethil Harbor through the gauntlet, into Loch Modan and then Dun Morogh just to take a tram from Ironforge. Eventually I got creative and found a small shallow cove across the bay from Menethil near Dun Morogh where you could drown yourself and rezz in the graveyard at Kharanos. Otherwise, taking a new elf from Aldrassil to SW meant spending 35-40 minutes running IF you got lucky and didn't die along the way.

Flight is just another reminder that the fun we used to have exploring is gone in most zones since we can now zip right over everything. As much as I love flight, and my mounts, a big part of me wishes they'd never brought it to Azeroth and just left it in Outland and Northrend.

I know all about the elvish death-run, I escorted a couple of friends through it and made the run on my lonesome when I decided my elven hunter would rather level in the dwarven lands.

It gets even "worse" when you look at things like the warlock quest taking you to Ratchet at lvl 20, or the Scarlet Monastery quest-chain starting all the way at the bottom of Desolace. Personally I liked the way it made the world feel like a world rather than a space laid out to be convenient for a video-game.

Also to the previous poster that say "why dont those that want to dont use flying dont use them and those that want to fly do that" , well imagine this me and the "flyguy" start at the same node/herb or whatever, he flys to the next, perhaps he arrives 10-20 secs before me and when i get there the vein is gone. How is that a good thing? Dont you think that i would pretty mcuh be forced to fly also?

That's not so much an issue in this expansion as nodes are personal, so if a player takes one it will still be there for you.

What is an issue is the flying player will be able to gather twice as quickly as you or more, so when it comes to selling things on the AH your time will be worth half what his is, that's why flying is an illusory choice.

Blizzard: No more flying, ever. We believe this is what is best for the game.
Players: We are not happy.
Blizzard: OK, flying is back.

In your infinite wisdom, please explain.

Blizzard: No flying until later.
Noisy minority: We're not happy.
Blizzard (looking at how people are actually playing the game): No flying seems to be working okay.

Later...

Blizzard: No flying at all going forward.
Previously Silent Majority: Now we're not happy.
Blizzard (seeing feedback close to unanimous on this): Okay we'll go back to the idea of flight being delayed and coming late in the expansion.
Silent Majority: *Silence*
Noisy Minority: We're still not happy.
Blizzard (looking at how people are actually playing the game): Flying later in the expansion seems to be working okay, we'll carry on with that idea.
Noisy Minority: WE'RE STILL NOT HAPPY.

If flying was bad for the game they would have stuck to their decision to remove it. Unless they don't actually care about what's good or bad for the game.

But since you worship facts, http://www.wowhead.com/news=247922/d...-post-q-a-show

The consensus at the time was No Flying. After that, we heard feedback about the word "never" being a very powerful word.

Now, please don't make me explain what "feedback" means.

Blizzard's stance was that allowing flight prevented them from designing content they wanted to. The pathfinder system allowing flight after certain achievements have been met allows them to stick to their design goals whilst still allowing players to fly later in the expansion.

There's a difference between "no flying until later" and "no flying at all." Players who have been branded "anti-flyers" for supporting the former were against the idea of the latter which is why the feedback changed when Blizz used the word "never."

[Mafic]

It has been 2 expansions now without flight for me. With the last being Legion ofcourse. I never got flight in WoD. It was far too tedious to get all those "treasures". Why bother when you have the feather and proper flight paths? Same can be said for the Whistle in Legion and the Flightpaths. I really don't need flight.

But honestly sometimes I wish I do had flight again. Sometimes I want to get someplace that is waaaaay up a mountain and I need to find a path. That is annoying. Especially when just before I was up that mountain and accidently fell off... Or I saw a quest ! mark down and decided to jump off.... and cannot directly find a way up again. So I have to backtrack for miles until I find it again.

But then again... all these annoyances also lead me to places I would not normally go. If I jump off... I have to go through some places I would normally never see. And sofar it has lead me to a few quests that I did not discover beforehand. Which is awesome!!!

But yeah even though I am against flight itself, I do like the freedom and convenience is provides. On the other hand I really like the sense of adventure. Blizzard in Legion atleast made it far more worth to "walk around - being lost" then in WoD.

Without flight the artifact grind and gathering professions systems suffer greatly as the expansion progresses. The problem is there is no sense of adventure beyond the one month mark for world content.

That is why instanced content has started to open up a week ago for PVP and PVE. Blizzard knows it, Players know it. Pepperridge farm knows it. World content is considered irrelevant beyond the one month mark of an expansion and why gating flying to mid expansion does irreversible harm possibly to the longevity of the expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

In response to a post I read earlier.

"Flying doesn't make bad content better" That is true, but it does allow you to skip bad content <open world travel>

What flying does is enable "content" by allowing you to skip the tedium and annoyance of open world travel.

Ask yourself this, what is there to do out in the world that you would not be doing if flight were available?

Now ask yourself this what is there you would be doing out in the world if flight were unlocked? Personally I can tell you I would be doing a hell of a lot more. I wouldn't be looking at my world quests and only doing the ones that give me the emissary box or a possible upgrade.

I am so tired of having to ride around w/my map open constantly, not very immersive

Blizzard is not willing to put in the resources to make a non flying world work:

1. Did they revamp Archaeology? No.
2. Gathering professions are in bad shape. Did they increase drop rates or success chance for rank? Nope.
3. Are world quests worthwhile doing beyond the first month? To an extent, but more of a Pavlovian lever or more precisely a Skinner box.
4. Flight whistle not keeping up with player demands as artifact power needs increase.
5. Heavy focus on instanced content for Legion. Yes.

Overall, you can't argue Blizzard is willing to make a non flying world work when they do not even try. This is why flying is vital to the endgame world of Legion moving forward IMVHO.

[Idoru]

Blizzard: No flying until later.
Noisy minority: We're not happy.
Blizzard (looking at how people are actually playing the game): No flying seems to be working okay.

Because at this point we still believed what they told us.

[Dhrizzle]

Because at this point we still believe what they told us.

Yes, when Blizz was saying flight would come later in the expansion we thought it would come later in the expansion, and we were happy/content/ambivalent about it.
Then when they said it wouldn't be coming back we believed them and expressed discontent.
Now they're saying it will come later in the expansion and we believe them and are happy/content/ambivalent about it again.

[Mafic]

We will never find out, will we? Couple of my friends who really take the game very casual never unlocked flying in WoD. Now looking just at one part of the Pathfinder achieve, it seems the requirements are already...what? Quadrupled?

They definitely won't unlock that "by accident" and I would really love to know how many people actively pursue flying. Maybe I missed things here, but why can't the adventure log pop up at 110 with some info / quest that sends you on your merry journey to pursue flying if you so wish. Unless you frequently visit forums or websites, you are left in the dark. Sure, you could scout your achievement tabs if maybe somewhere flying is mentioned.

Aren't many people are left in the dark about it? Especially since some reputations take ages and even more so if you are not aware that you will need them. Everything at revered, Nightfallen at exhalted? You pretty much MUST so the entire Suramar storyline.

Ofc you could argue that people who do not know about this do not care about flying and they "should do their research", but really IMHO some essential things should be told to you in game, through game mechanics. Even if it means chatting to your flight trainer to find out.

The goal is to drive down participation. In WoD, 70% unlocked WoD flying and those players you know fall into the 30% that did not whether by choice or not being aware of its existence. In Legion, the parts are split up and made with more rep grinds and a raiding requirement to drive down participation below 50%. Blizzard knows the majority of players that play WoW do not raid so that is a non starter for a big chunk of players from even attempting to do the Legion version of pathfinder.

[Idoru]

Yes, when Blizz was saying flight would come later in the expansion we thought it would come later in the expansion, and we were happy/content/ambivalent about it.

The fact that I believed them didn't mean that I wasn't still unhappy.

Now they're saying it will come later in the expansion and we believe them and are happy/content/ambivalent about it again.

And when some of us dares to voice our discontent we are ridiculed.

[Mafic]

And I want proof that flying is bad for the game. No anti-flyer (not even Blizzard) has provided anything but subjective biased BS.

It can not be proven but it is very easy to disprove as we see gathering professions and archaeology suffer.

Blizzard can make a non flying world work (eg boosting drop rates for herbs and reworking archaeology) but they do not want to put in the effort to do so.