Dems turn on ObamaCare amid premium hikes, Bill Clinton called it "crazy system".

[Tijuana]

It was created in part by the republicans as they made up half the drafting committee that put it together and it was already based on a republican plan to begin with. You just glazed over that fact entirely.

It isn't my recollection of the events that is strange,it is you glazing over the parts that you don't like that make it strange to you.

And their refusal to vote on it had little to do with the substance of the bill and everything to do with their hatred of the man who put it forward as they had already agreed to pass it previously before they did a 180 and decided to fight it at all costs and even shut down the nation in the process trying to.

Ok sure. Yeah, conservatives are just all about HUGELY expanding the size and scope of government, like Obamacare does. Yep, you caught 'em. This bill was in no way diametrically opposed to everything they believe in and it was just racism that made them vote against it.

You live in a strange world, my friend. When you are spinning so hard that you disregard core beliefs, you should maybe take a step back from the kool-aid.

[Fugus]

Ok sure. Yeah, conservatives are just all about HUGELY expanding the size and scope of government, like Obamacare does. Yep, you caught 'em. This bill was in no way diametrically opposed to everything they believe in and it was just racism that made them vote against it.

You live in a strange world, my friend. When you are spinning so hard that you disregard core beliefs, you should maybe take a step back from the kool-aid.

Whether it was against their stated goals about government or not is beside the point. The fact of the matter is the bill was created with half those creating it being republicans, basing it on a republican bill, and even had the public option stripped from it attempting to appease republicans.

And Obamacare was actually a huge corporate handout to insurance companies more than an expansion of government. Which seems to be one of the things the republicans go for plenty.

And I never said anything about Racism, you did. I said they hated Obama which they did and even did everything they could to try and make him look bad, fought him on everything and even stated themselves they wanted to make him a 1 term president in the begging which is also how they earned the name of "The Party of NO".

Sorry, I am using facts, you are trying to spin it ignoring them. You have had too much kool aid already.

AFK, gotta go. Will check on it later. And you can read up on anything I posted if you want to verify them. I am not talking shit, I am posting stated facts from the past few years that can be proven.

[unbound]

Our healthcare system was broken before, but it's more broken now. Yeah more people have health insurance but at a higher cost and lower quality. We would have been better off with government healthcare instead of being forced to buy private insurance that is an Oligopoly.

No, our healthcare system is not more broken now. It isn't anymore broken than it was. It merely delayed the inevitable. It did help provide insurance to more people, and it set up exchanges which are at the very heart of competition. The problem is that competition is not a good solution to a complex problem like healthcare.

The ACA was nothing more than the half-measure that was dreamed up by the Heritage Foundation (conservative foundation for those not familiar with it) from 1989 with a few minor updates...all of the key measures (requirement that the same policies are provided to everyone regardless of health status; individual mandate - aka everyone must purchase; and subsidies to keep insurance affordable for lower incomes) were there from the beginning (i.e. all of those components were in the original Heritage plan). The plan was appropriately panned back then as a half-measure that didn't really fix our healthcare system, but Obama figured that since it was the conservative's plan, it would be one of the few things that we could at least start with (which is why it was hilarious that all the Senate Republicans voted against it...it was their own plan). Of course, usual for Republicans, rather than having an actual alternative, they have been busy doing nothing more than trying to just kill the ACA.

So are things worse now than they were before? Absolutely not. Here is the cost of healthcare for various countries around the world as measured by percentage of GDP.



Notice anything? Costs have held steady, relative to GDP, since 2009. Notice something else? We've been going up overall since at least 1980. Remember, this is based on percentage of GDP, so you don't have to worry about inflation. This is the percentage of our economy spent on healthcare. The ACA, if it did anything at all, held it in place for the past few years. It didn't do anything more than that, because it was designed to fix only a few things (the key measures), it wasn't designed to fix the problem of actual costs...or, more accurately, it assumed that competition is magic and that things would magically get better if you forced competition (basically, the same silly beliefs of Libertarians).

Would we have been better off with a single-payer system? Absolutely, that is the secret of all those other countries that have seen their healthcare costs rise only slightly relative to GDP. Unfortunately, the masses have been lied to for so very long that they won't accept such a system. Even if you get mass acceptance, the GOP has relied on it as a wedge issue for so long, they can't go back anymore.

[Tijuana]

Whether it was against their stated goals about government or not is beside the point. The fact of the matter is the bill was created with half those creating it being republicans, basing it on a republican bill, and even had the public option stripped from it attempting to appease republicans.

And Obamacare was actually a huge corporate handout to insurance companies more than an expansion of government. Which seems to be one of the things the republicans go for plenty.

And I never said anything about Racism, you did. I said they hated Obama which they did and even did everything they could to try and make him look bad, fought him on everything and even stated themselves they wanted to make him a 1 term president in the begging which is also how they earned the name of "The Party of NO".

Sorry, I am using facts, you are trying to spin it ignoring them. You have had too much kool aid already.

AFK, gotta go. Will check on it later. And you can read up on anything I posted if you want to verify them. I am not talking shit, I am posting stated facts from the past few years that can be proven.

They hate Obama no more or no less than every other Democrat. You are just tin foil hatting this hard core.

I can see that you are just completely blind with partisan rage and there isn't much point in discussing things with you, since you believe in every half-hearted attempt at spin that has ever been put in print. It would take to much time to source and link all the things that have already been dis-proven, that you didn't get the memo about.

- - - Updated - - -

No, our healthcare system is not more broken now. It isn't anymore broken than it was. It merely delayed the inevitable. It did help provide insurance to more people, and it set up exchanges which are at the very heart of competition. The problem is that competition is not a good solution to a complex problem like healthcare.

The ACA was nothing more than the half-measure that was dreamed up by the Heritage Foundation (conservative foundation for those not familiar with it) from 1989 with a few minor updates...all of the key measures (requirement that the same policies are provided to everyone regardless of health status; individual mandate - aka everyone must purchase; and subsidies to keep insurance affordable for lower incomes) were there from the beginning (i.e. all of those components were in the original Heritage plan). The plan was appropriately panned back then as a half-measure that didn't really fix our healthcare system, but Obama figured that since it was the conservative's plan, it would be one of the few things that we could at least start with (which is why it was hilarious that all the Senate Republicans voted against it...it was their own plan). Of course, usual for Republicans, rather than having an actual alternative, they have been busy doing nothing more than trying to just kill the ACA.

So are things worse now than they were before? Absolutely not. Here is the cost of healthcare for various countries around the world as measured by percentage of GDP.



Notice anything? Costs have held steady, relative to GDP, since 2009. Notice something else? We've been going up overall since at least 1980. Remember, this is based on percentage of GDP, so you don't have to worry about inflation. This is the percentage of our economy spent on healthcare. The ACA, if it did anything at all, held it in place for the past few years. It didn't do anything more than that, because it was designed to fix only a few things (the key measures), it wasn't designed to fix the problem of actual costs...or, more accurately, it assumed that competition is magic and that things would magically get better if you forced competition (basically, the same silly beliefs of Libertarians).

Would we have been better off with a single-payer system? Absolutely, that is the secret of all those other countries that have seen their healthcare costs rise only slightly relative to GDP. Unfortunately, the masses have been lied to for so very long that they won't accept such a system. Even if you get mass acceptance, the GOP has relied on it as a wedge issue for so long, they can't go back anymore.

According to this chart, adding millions of people to the billing rolls is somehow a non-factor? That doesn't seem quite right. I'm not saying it isn't, it's just...odd. Anecdotally, the message I am hearing in the world is "OMG my premiums went up and my deductions are huge now".

I still say single payer would be better than this, and I say that as a pretty solid conservative on most issues.

[Edge-]

According to this chart, adding millions of people to the billing rolls is somehow a non-factor? That doesn't seem quite right. I'm not saying it isn't, it's just...odd. Anecdotally, the message I am hearing in the world is "OMG my premiums went up and my deductions are huge now".

Depends on who you talk to. Some folks have better coverage through work now at little to no extra, some folks can remain on their parents coverage for longer, some folks ended up paying more in premiums and/or deductions but having a lower out of pocket maximum/more areas covered (dental/psychological/vision etc.). And then plenty of folks simply pay more in premiums for a lower deductable/out of pocket maximum, have to cover more of the cost of their health care provided through work, or have seen other increases. It's a mixed bag.

Also, IIRC as of last year the data was showing that increases to the costs of premiums had slowed under Obamacare. They're still going up, nobody is disputing that fact, but they're going up slower than they were under Bush, for example. Not sure if that still holds true today, but as of 2015 that was the case.

[Tijuana]

Depends on who you talk to. Some folks have better coverage through work now, some folks can remain on their parents coverage for longer, some folks ended up paying more in premiums and/or deductions but having a lower out of pocket maximum/more areas covered (dental/psychological/vision etc.).

Also, IIRC as of last year the data was showing that increases to the costs of premiums had slowed under Obamacare. They're still going up, nobody is disputing that fact, but they're going up slower than they were under Bush, for example. Not sure if that still holds true today, but as of 2015 that was the case.

That could very well be true. But, I fear the slowing of prices is due to government force, instead of healthy competition. I say this because seemingly every re-subscription period, more insurers have left the Obamacare exchange.

The fundamental problem with healthcare capitalism is that there is no capitalism in healthcare. Nobody says from the back of an ambulance, "Hey take me across town to that cheap hospital", or "Hey take me to the next hospital, I hear they have great care".

So, Obamacare does little to impact the prices that hospitals charge. I said earlier, this is akin to complaining that car insurance is too high, without pointing a single finger at the cost of repairs.

[Edge-]

That could very well be true. But, I fear the slowing of prices is due to government force, instead of healthy competition. I say this because seemingly every re-subscription period, more insurers have left the Obamacare exchange.

Some leave, some enter. But if more are leaving the exchange, wouldn't that mean that there's less competition so prices rise? The government doesn't set or control pricing for these plans, they can't force these companies to keep their prices flat.

The fundamental problem with healthcare capitalism is that there is no capitalism in healthcare. Nobody says from the back of an ambulance, "Hey take me across town to that cheap hospital", or "Hey take me to the next hospital, I hear they have great care".

I agree, and the fact that we don't have a single payer system still pisses me off.

[Deleted]

Ahh good ol' Fox News, ignoring history as usual. Had the ACA gone through as intended, with the costs being grafted to Social Security and Medicare, pushing the costs to the payroll tax side, it would have meant lower costs and even easier access to the consumer.

But instead you get clowns like Stuart Butler and his bullshit plan in the 80s to involve private insurance in any kind of health care acts, then Gingrich swallowing it like a fuckin' bass and pawning it off to Romney to implement in Massachusetts and eventually seeping its way into the ACA to get passed. All the while private insurers were cheering them on. Anything to block an actual public health system.

That doesn't help.
The US's problem is a lack of cost control.

[Sesshou]

Also, IIRC as of last year the data was showing that increases to the costs of premiums had slowed under Obamacare. They're still going up, nobody is disputing that fact, but they're going up slower than they were under Bush, for example. Not sure if that still holds true today, but as of 2015 that was the case.

That may be true for the national average, but what about young, healthy people? The reason some people are getting bent over now is because the system is set up so young, healthy people take on more of the burden to offset the riskier cases.

[Tijuana]

Some leave, some enter. But if more are leaving the exchange, wouldn't that mean that there's less competition so prices rise? The government doesn't set or control pricing for these plans, they can't force these companies to keep their prices flat.



I agree, and the fact that we don't have a single payer system still pisses me off.

Actually, yes they do force pricing. That is why companies are leaving the exchange. They feel there is not enough profit in it to be worth the efforts, and they are not allowed to set their own pricing. As far as I know, nobody has entered it since the initial creation of it.

[Edge-]

That may be true for the national average, but what about young, healthy people? The reason some people are getting bent over now is because the system is set up so young, healthy people take on more of the burden to offset the riskier cases.

No, they exist to offset the more expensive/riskier folks. They don't "take on more of the burden", they take on the same amount depending on what plan they buy.

This is how insurance works, you have a huge pool of people paying in but only a fraction of folks will be needing insurance at any given time. It's how car insurance works (another thing you're legally required to have, if you want to drive on the roads) yet it's rare that I hear these kinds of complaints levied at car insurance.

I pay for car insurance despite never having needed to use it, thankfully. And that's fine. I'm helping cover someone else's costs for their wreck and I'm alright with that. Because when it's my turn to need the car insurance, they'll be helping cover me. Same goes for health insurance, which I paid out of pocket for a while when I was healthy but now have through work and actually use for a few things.

[Tijuana]

That may be true for the national average, but what about young, healthy people? The reason some people are getting bent over now is because the system is set up so young, healthy people take on more of the burden to offset the riskier cases.

Young people being forced to buy Obamacare is the fundamental problem with it, imo. If you were 20 years old, pre-Obamacare, and you had anything other than a high deductible, low premium plan, you were making a really bad financial decision. We are forcing young people to make bad financial decisions, in order to pay for the care of older people who should have been saving for health care costs later in life. It's kind of messed up when you look at it that way.

If we had shifted to health savings accounts, instead of Obamacare, we could have forced people to make good financial decisions, instead of forcing them to make bad financial decisions.

[Deleted]

Surprise, surprise.

[Fugus]

They hate Obama no more or no less than every other Democrat. You are just tin foil hatting this hard core.

I can see that you are just completely blind with partisan rage and there isn't much point in discussing things with you, since you believe in every half-hearted attempt at spin that has ever been put in print. It would take to much time to source and link all the things that have already been dis-proven, that you didn't get the memo about.

I am not tinfoil hatting, you are. You don't believe me, google is your friend in this one.

1) I stated that the drafting committee was half made up of republicans. This isn't spin, this isn't opinion. This is fact that you can read and verify.

2) I stated the the ACA was based on a republican plan. This isn't spin, this isn't an opinion. This is a fact that you can read and verify.

3) I stated that the republicans originally agreed to pass the ACA, this isn't spin, this isn't an opinion. This is a fact you can read and verify.

4) I stated that the republican party said they were trying to try and make sure that they made Obama a 1 term president. This isn't spin, this isn't an opinion. This is a fact you can read and verify.

5) I stated that the republican party has tried to block him and obstruct him at virtually every turn. This isn't spin and while their are actual multiple opinions as to why, you can still read and verify.

You are letting your partisan hate and rage blind you to cold hard facts. FYI, I am not a democrat.

[PACOX]

No one said the AFA is perfect or the final stepping stone. It was the most immediate "fix" to unaffordable healthcare in the US with the goal of the administration building upon the foundation of Obama's work. This has been said, this is known.

AFA was what could get passed at the time, and it did/does give people who otherwise didn't have access to healthcare a solution. Of course Conservatives don't agree but the plan is to gradually get rid of the bloat of the insurance industry and to more as close to universal healthcare as possible. Hate to tell you, but as society moves on, countries will move towards more social systems, be it healthcare, schools, aid, etc. I mean you can articles about why as we become a more STEM oriented people.

The old system simply doesn't work. It worked for some but as the US policy is centered around the middle of the middle class, many people were left behind when it came to Healthcare. First phase, make what we have affordable, second phase more past profit based health practices, third phase is a strong public option or universal services.

[JDL49]

#1 The Insurance companies say that young health people are NOT signing up for individual plans. A lot of them are taking the tax penalty route as being cheaper. Surprise ! Also they stay on their parents policies until they age out which is a new phenomenon. That raised rates a bunch. The other thing is the the people who did sign up were much sicker than we were lead to believe and that raised rates a crap ton.

#2 A large part of under 40 crowd are carrying monumental College debt. This debt is in large part due to the reductions in the States aid to higher education due to the massive increase in Medicaid spending. These young people can't afford insurance much less a house or condo.

There is no free lunch in healthcare.

[Damajin]

This is what happens when one party tries to fix a broken system, while the other party puts every effort imaginable into stopping them. They need to work together.

Since this bill was written by the interest groups, it'd be more accurate to say they need to work, period.

Must be nice getting paid 140k a year plus all the perks and having someone else do all the work.

[TZucchini]

Since this bill was written by the interest groups, it'd be more accurate to say they need to work, period.

Must be nice getting paid 140k a year plus all the perks and having someone else do all the work.

If special interest groups wrote this bill, then why the hell do Medical Loss Ratios exist?

[zenkai]

I am not tinfoil hatting, you are. You don't believe me, google is your friend in this one.

1) I stated that the drafting committee was half made up of republicans. This isn't spin, this isn't opinion. This is fact that you can read and verify.

2) I stated the the ACA was based on a republican plan. This isn't spin, this isn't an opinion. This is a fact that you can read and verify.

3) I stated that the republicans originally agreed to pass the ACA, this isn't spin, this isn't an opinion. This is a fact you can read and verify.

4) I stated that the republican party said they were trying to try and make sure that they made Obama a 1 term president. This isn't spin, this isn't an opinion. This is a fact you can read and verify.

5) I stated that the republican party has tried to block him and obstruct him at virtually every turn. This isn't spin and while their are actual multiple opinions as to why, you can still read and verify.

You are letting your partisan hate and rage blind you to cold hard facts. FYI, I am not a democrat.

Here you go - http://www.politifact.com/punditfact...are-plan-1993/

However, to call it the Republican plan, as though a majority of Republicans endorsed it, goes too far. The House Republicans took a different path, and there was opposition from more hard-line members of the Republican coalition. It is telling that the Chafee bill never became a full blown bill and never came up for a vote.

So a plan made by some republicans that didn't come up for vote because a lot of republicans didn't like it, makes ACA a Republican plan #logic

[Damajin]

If special interest groups wrote this bill, then why the hell do Medical Loss Ratios exist?

Because they had to put the penalty in there to get enough votes just to pass the thing. If it was outright compulsory as they wanted it to be then there'd be no losses, those penalty people would be paying insurance companies rather than the IRS, and paying them a much larger sum.