The Problem With Havoc and Possible Solutions

[Goldenboy1]

I think the issue here is that Havoc Demonhunters are in the limbo of being great at aoe fights and meh at single target. However, a lot of our single target damage is also cleave orientated the prime examples being Fel Mastery + Fel Rush and Bloodlet + Glaive Throw. Blizzard does not want Havoc, or any other class, being the star child of single target and aoe encounters. However in most classes you can nerf their aoe potential and leave single target untouched.

This is not the case for Demonhunters because of the cleave heavy havoc kit. Blizzard can not compensate for this by merely buffing Chaos Strike into god hood. One option to "fix", for lack of a better word, this would be to add another single target attack into our rotation. This would open more deviation in rotation from cleave and pure single target for future balancing. Something as simple as an attack that becomes available after using Chaos Strike a few times, as to not compete with fury spenders, could potentially buff our single target to be on par with most classes while leaving our aoe alone. Another option could be a change to Chaos Blades: Extend the duration, remove the % damage done increased based off mastery, and have it's cool down decreased every time a rage spender crits (excluding eye beam since that would just mean Chaos Blades for days).

In case my original attention was lost in my rambling, the main issue is that you can not nerf Havoc's aoe without nerfing their single target as the kit is currently. Additionally, most talent changes would hence forth complicate the balancing process as they try to ensure one class is not king in a situation. Our cleave plays too much into our single target is the end of story. Nerfing Chaos Strike would not harm cleave situations all that much however a Fel Rush or Bloodlet nerf is a big single target loss.

[nacruza]

So what is the "solution" for the now?
I just see some obvious suggestions blizzard might have kicked out of brain storming months ago... + the don't seem to see a need in changing stuff

[Algoma0]

If you really wanted to nerf AoE (which doesn't seem necessary) without nerfing ST you could just change the damage done to secondary targets. (i.e. Fury of the Illidari does 100% to main target and 75% to everyone else) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out, and they have done that to monks lately. They are aware.

[FobManX]

Making Felblade stronger in single target would be nice. Ditto Fel Eruption on its tier. There are talents in place to give us more abilities which could improve our single target but they're just too weak at the moment.

[mitre27]

My only problem with havoc is the forced momentum playstyle, which is frustrating on fights where that is hard/impossible.

Also they tune our AoE assuming we have that talent picked which leaves the people using nemesis even further behind.

[Deleted]

My only problem with havoc is the forced momentum playstyle, which is frustrating on fights where that is hard/impossible.

Also they tune our AoE assuming we have that talent picked which leaves the people using nemesis even further behind.

I fully agree with you : right now, this is Momentum or die (on the damage meter)...

[Sandraudiga]

The momentum playstyle is fine, but on some bosses it can be detrimental. Many players either dislike it or are not good enough to pull it off while maintaining boss mechanics. Needing to use not only our mobility but our only defensive cooldown offensively is a bit of a drag during mythic progression.

Single target vs cleave and aoe are another big factor. The cleave and aoe talents should not do more damage on single target than the single target talents, that is common sense. I would love to have a choice between bloodlet for cleave and felblade for single target in the same way I can choose fel barrage and chaos blades.

I would love Nemesis and Momentum reworked to make Nemesis more of a burst damage talent through lower duration higher damage, Momentum a flat damage increase through high uptime and fel eruption as a competitive single target alternative.

More competitive choice is always better.

[Shirofune]

Single target vs cleave and aoe are another big factor. The cleave and aoe talents should not do more damage on single target than the single target talents, that is common sense. I would love to have a choice between bloodlet for cleave and felblade for single target in the same way I can choose fel barrage and chaos blades.

That's one huge issue the T3 talents have, but is not something that is going to be fixed in a hotfix. Asking for more Bloodlet nerfs atm is only going to hurt our presence in raids. That should be fixed and tested slowly, in 7.1.

I would love Nemesis and Momentum reworked to make Nemesis more of a burst damage talent through lower duration higher damage, Momentum a flat damage increase through high uptime and fel eruption as a competitive single target alternative.

No thanks. Nemesis is there for those who don't like to micromanage the Momentum windows. It doesn't have to provide a higher burst window, and I still don't understand why it provides the same damage increase than Momo (it got buffed from 15 to 20% back in beta)

[Zeds Dead]

That's one huge issue the T3 talents have, but is not something that is going to be fixed in a hotfix. Asking for more Bloodlet nerfs atm is only going to hurt our presence in raids. That should be fixed and tested slowly, in 7.1.



No thanks. Nemesis is there for those who don't like to micromanage the Momentum windows. It doesn't have to provide a higher burst window, and I still don't understand why it provides the same damage increase than Momo (it got buffed from 15 to 20% back in beta)

It does not provide the same damage increase. It is a flat 20% of the duration which means wasting part of that on generating fury. Momentum is still way ahead of it because you choose what abilities to use your 20% on.

We need a talent tree with more single target options. We have three atrocious tiers that could be revamped. We don't have a single talent that boosts our largest single target ability other than making it 50% cleave one target.

[Schizoide]

In case my original attention was lost in my rambling, the main issue is that you can not nerf Havoc's aoe without nerfing their single target as the kit is currently.

Sure you can.

1) Throw Glaive and Fel Rush deal 50% damage to secondary targets
2) There is no #2
3) No #3 either

No need to nerf Eye Beam, Anguish, or the legendary ability (further). Hitting Glaives and Fel Rush would do it just fine.

[Valoran]

I feel like a possible solution with momentum and single target damage is changing the way Fel Rush works through a talent (ideally added to Demon Blades) or glyph.

Instead of going through your target, make a talent or glyph that has you stop at your target. Yes, this would nerf some of Fel Rush's AoE damage unless the extra mobs were positioned directly in front of the target you're fel rushing to. This would allow two things - 1. movement wouldn't be an issue for those taking momentum + Demon Blades, although the ease of putting out more AoE damage with fel rush would be diminished unless mob placement was ideal. 2. If this was added to Demon Blades, it wouldn't change the momentum playstyle with Preparation, but allow for both a more stationary momentum build (momo + DB) and a more mobile momentum build (momo + Prep).

As for our single target damage, the easiest solution is probably just to increase the base damage of CS/Anni.

[Goldenboy1]

Sure you can.

1) Throw Glaive and Fel Rush deal 50% damage to secondary targets
2) There is no #2
3) No #3 either

No need to nerf Eye Beam, Anguish, or the legendary ability (further). Hitting Glaives and Fel Rush would do it just fine.

That would not change our single target and gut our aoe as the talents are now. Fel Mastery was reduced by 20% and Bloodlet was nerfed by 50%. From your suggestion in aoe situations we would do 50% less damage than now to each target after the first. This is a huge loss. Lets say Fel Rush has 100k base damage with Fel Mastery, just to make things simple. Now then with this change our single target is the same but now the next enemy is being dealt only 50k damage. Please understand this is a perfect world without crit or armor so lets just say 100k true damage.

Fel Rush:

Your changes As is
Enemy 1: 100k damage Enemy 1: 100k damage
Enemy 2: 50k damage Enemy 2: 100k damage
Enemy 3: 50k damage Enemy 3: 100k damage
Enemy 4: 50k damage Enemy 4: 100k damage
Enemy 5: 50k damage Enemy 5: 100k damage
Total: 300k damage Total: 500k damage

Okay so your single target is the same but thereafter you would have our aoe be completely gutted. The same goes for Throw Glaive but even more so as Bloodlet would also be nerfed because of your single targets. Unless youre suggesting they revert the talent nerf then add your 50% changes. Now I will do the Throw Glaive and Bloodlet combo as is compared to your 50% nerf. Again just so I dont have to do too much math, im a lazy man.

Throw Glaive and Bloodlet:

Your changes As is
Enemy 1: Glaive damage 100k 150k Bloodlet damage Enemy 1: Glaive damage 100k 150k Bloodlet damage
Enemy 2: Glaive damage 50k 75k Bloodlet damage Enemy 2: Glaive damage 100k 150k Bloodlet damage
Enemy 3: Glaive damage 50k 75k Bloodlet damage Enemy 3: Glaive damage 100k 150k Bloodlet damage
Totals: Glaive damage 200k 300k Bloodlet damage Glaive damage 300k 450k Bloodlet damage


Your changes conserve our single target but will devastate cleave and aoe. You will make demon hunters worse in mythic + and all encounters except for Nyth in Emerald Nightmare. If any of my numbers are wrong or your think what I did was wrong to put your idea into numbers please state it and back it up. Im not looking for a mindless argument just constructive debate.

[Schizoide]

Dude said it was impossible to nerf AE and not single-target. I proved that was not accurate.

Obviously the 50% number is a placeholder, you set it to whatever is appropriate.

[Algoma0]

the main issue is that you can not nerf Havoc's aoe without nerfing their single target as the kit is currently.

Your changes conserve our single target but will devastate cleave and aoe.

Im not looking for a mindless argument just constructive debate.

I'm not sure if you're trolling .. ? What exactly are you trying to debate?

[Zandermill]

Just change bloodlet from throw glaives to chaos strike. The problem for our ST and AOE than fixes itself. Put Bloodlet to 100% and call it a day.

[Novakhoro]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
Havoc Single Target is fine. They're not topping meters... Sorry. Save that for every other fight where there are two targets or just watch it scale even harder when there is more. Then you can shine in your glory. Seriously, I don't feel that we're gimped in any sense of the word. Bloodlet was flat-out broken at 200% and I believe the nerf was more than justified. People got accustomed to something that was extremely unbalanced and cried when it got fixed.

[Adoxe]

We don't need to be the best. That just puts a target on our backs. We're fine as is, let's not turn into a Warlock forum.

[Zandermill]

Sorry, we have 1 dps spec, and 1 tank spec. We have no third spec. So yes. We should be the best at one spec or the other. We're not however.
Until we have a top spot place as either a dps, or a tank than we need to be buffed upwards. I really have no desire to reroll and regrind 27 traits.
We are not fine, nor will we be fine until we have a seat at the top end ST table.

[Magicpot]

The Problem With Havoc

is that it still does too much damage and has way too much utility for a spec that is way too easy to play.

/thread

[justinope]

is that it still does too much damage and has way too much utility for a spec that is way too easy to play.

/thread

complete idiot alert, clearly never played havoc in raids with momentum