WQ's cap at 835-840 gear(without titan/warforge) games raid or die again

[Olloth]

The people in my raid group who have the best gear have it from Mythic+. There is only 7 bosses in the raid, you will typically get 1-2 pieces for a couple hours of a full clear.

Also, depending on your spec, a lot of the raid gear is worse itemization than mythic+.

Mythic+ is actually better than raids for gearing. Larger groups are not getting geared more than twice as fast as people running mythic+, not unless you are counting the crazy people doing split runs of raids and funneling gear and they could just as easily spammed Mythic+ instead (and many did)

[Alvito]

The best way to gear right now is spamming mythic plus. It is easier and faster to chain them off and you only need 4 other people and don't have lockouts. As far as raiding and gear goes it is raid mythic or don't bother. It took less then a week for heroic EN gear to be trival. Its too bad that raiding is an after thought so quickly. WQ gear mixec with mythix dungeons and 3 weeks of prep time just wrecked raiding this tier.

[Deleted]

God forbid good gear should come with a proper challenge

It is hard as fuck to complete that Nutcracking WQ on my Server. 50+ guys frantically running after squirrels and those nuts.

[Sevaara]

Game is basically raid or die again. Progressing past ~855 ilvl without being a raider is nearly impossible without insane luck. Mythic+ doesn't drop much loot and you have to do +6 or higher to get guaranteed 855+ loot, while being pretty difficulty to do in 845-855 gear. To do higher level M+ you're basically going to have to be in raid gear and be a raider. Anyone who does mostly M+ and world quests will be ~855 ilvl at this point.

Meanwhile, heroic raids are dropping 865+ and mythic raids are 880+. Anyone raiding will be 860+ ilvl at this point. As time goes on, the gap will get even bigger.

This is why we're seeing a lot of threads like this:
"Flawed gearing system I'm stuck at 845" (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ck-at-845-ilvl)
"RNG brickwall" (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-RNG-Brickwall)

As more and more people progress and get to this "wall", it will become more apparent and wide spread. It will become more complained about more and more as more people reach this plataeu of gear.

Game is raid or die again. The devs of this game can't get over their outdated archaic raid or die obsession and are going to kill their game two expansions in a row by catering too much to raiders and not giving non-raiders proper character progression.
Mythic +7 gives 855 BASE items.
Mythic +7 is as hard as heroic EN, perhaps harder to beat timer on in certain dungeons.

Game does not reward you for doing difficult content, unless said content is raids.
The devs are HEAVILY biased towards raiders.

I rolled an 890 chest from a Mythic dungeon regular Mythic, no keystone. BiS stats too.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Sevaara/simple

[Otimus]

No?

I think a bit more balance towards 5-man goup loot wouldn't hurt

Maybe giving the option for raids to be 5 man but more difficult. Catering more towards smaller groups would be great. We got a lot this expac but it's still frustrating watching larger groups get geared more than twice as fast

I'd say that's probably where the wind is blowing, eventually. At the very least, I could see raids flexing down to 8 in the near future. I mean, the new Kara is kind of like a 5-man raid, sort of. There's been a big focus on content for smaller groups, too.

[kary]

No?

I think a bit more balance towards 5-man goup loot wouldn't hurt

Maybe giving the option for raids to be 5 man but more difficult. Catering more towards smaller groups would be great. We got a lot this expac but it's still frustrating watching larger groups get geared more than twice as fast

You dont think 865 gear with no cd (skill dependent) and 1 guaranteed 880 isn't balanced? Right now 5mans >> raiding for gearing.

I'd say that's probably where the wind is blowing, eventually. At the very least, I could see raids flexing down to 8 in the near future. I mean, the new Kara is kind of like a 5-man raid, sort of. There's been a big focus on content for smaller groups, too.

Group sizes are kinda already set. 5, 10-30 and 20. Sorry.

[Otimus]

You dont think 865 gear with no cd (skill dependent) and 1 guaranteed 880 isn't balanced? Right now 5mans >> raiding for gearing.



Group sizes are kinda already set. 5, 10-30 and 20. Sorry.

Yeah, well, I didn't mean immediately. Probably not for two or so expansions, I figure.
Besides, it's not like that hasn't changed before, dude. I mean, it's literally changed like... from 40 and 25, to 10 and 25, to 10/25 with different loot, to 10 and 25, to 10-30, 20.

It's not like these things changing is unheard of that you need to speak with such clear bluntness like it could NEVER happen.

[kary]

Yeah, well, I didn't mean immediately. Probably not for two or so expansions, I figure.
Besides, it's not like that hasn't changed before, dude. I mean, it's literally changed like... from 40 and 25, to 10 and 25, to 10/25 with different loot, to 10 and 25, to 10-30, 20.

It's not like these things changing is unheard of that you need to speak with such clear bluntness like it could NEVER happen.

Unless some major philosophy change comes, I don't see them binning 20man mythic. That's the only variable that could change, the premier difficulty.
They won't bin flex, 5mans are the core, and they have said that raids are 10+ and that has always been the case. Flex could open to 40 maybe, but the major candidate for change would be 20m mythic. They won't make content for 1.6 groups. 5 man increments.

[Mafic]

"Game is basically raid or die again"

I'm still confused as to when the game was not raid or die before Legion.

It wasn't pre WoD raid or die though. Even Cata which is regarded as anti casual expansion at the start still had something for casual players.

[Saracens]

Didn't realize pointing out that someone making threads that contradict each other is a personal attack.

Focus on the discussion, not the user, and follow MMO-C guidelines for posting, please.

Thank you.

[snackfeat]

Did you really expect world quest rewards would scale to the same base ilvl as raids? This does not mean the game is raid for die, it would be absolutely retarded if solo quests tuned for newly dinged 110s was a reliable source of raid level gear.

And I can say from doing M+ up to +10 myself, that +7 is nowhere near the same difficulty as HC EN. Heroic raids are not hard, but +7 is definitely way easier than that.

Anything below mythic +10 is faceroll, and you don't even need to beat the timer to get an 880 piece from the chest each week.

TLDR the only people complaining about this, are people who are too bad to do any kind of challenging content, so you will continue to complain until blizzard gives you bis gear for doing nothing, which will never happen.

[Frozenpt]

Probably because if the game is WOD again it will die again?
I dunno. Not being able to progress your character outside of raids or insane RNG luck is pretty bad and why WOD was a disaster.

I think you are missing the point there. WoD was all about getting gear by not raiding, that was one of the most criticized aspects of it.

I agree that the game gained a lot RNG when it comes to gear, RNG that I find healthy and fun in an ARPG but really not so much in MMORPGs, but RNG can be somewhat countered by time spent rolling the dice. This means that your chances will increase if you keep on trying, specially with their Legendary protection system (assuming it really is working correctly).

I still think the game is a thousand times better than what it was in WoD (loot wise), you could literally get BiS gear by logging in and sending followers do stuff. This is an MMORPG, raiding is a big part of its content and I really don't understand why people run from it. Bad time with pugs? Afraid to be criticized for being bad? Maybe it is just pure personal preference, but I find it odd to when someone decides to play an MMO.

Personally, I like how it is now. I did raid with a guild during SoO but the last time I had a serious raiding guild was during WotLK. Legion made me look for a guild and we've been raiding since Normal and Heroic EN release. I dislike pugs really hard, so I just looked for a group of people to play with while having a friendly environment. I truly believe most people aren't willing to look for players to play with and instead throw themselves to pugs and cry when things go wrong.

Also, you said on your OP that M+6 is hard with 845-855 ilvl. True, maybe it is and it should be, but let me tell you that all my M+ groups and raid group, we never had anyone above 855. I did many M+6 with 848 ilvl and I kept improving my DPS from run to run by learning how to manage my CDs in the specific dungeon I'm running, trust me that improving your knowledge and performance in a specific dungeon makes EVERYTHING in the run go smoother.
It is hard? Great, don't look at your gear for excuses, yes you'll reach a brick wall where you'll need more to beat certain timers but it should be the last thing to look at. Communicate with your friends, don't need to be on VoIP, simply use the chat and plan things ahead and announce whatever it is necessary during the run.

If the game is raid or die, that's great. You can reach 835+ ilvl from saving nuts and cracking squirrels, that is amazing to help players with other world content and to step into harder content. This is how I believe it should be, getting free gear removes the "play" aspect of the game. Play the game, get rewarded. If you want rewards without playing, check other MMOs that do exactly that quite nicely.

[Frandaero]

I think the issue stems from the difficulty being based on the number of players rather than their skill. Mythic+ dungeons should be as difficult as mythic raids and reward the same ilvl

No, they shouldn't. Mythic+ dungeons are far from being on the same level of difficulty as a Mythic raid.

[the]

I got a question for you. Why do you need to get past 855 ilvl if you do not raid.....

If the gear of a raider is truly only used to make raids easier, why does it also work in world quests, pvp, transmog farming & old raid mount farming? Why do YOU AS A RAIDER wear gear past 855 outside of a raid?

You already outgear the content, why would you want it to be easier?

The question would make sense if raid gear only worked in raids, but raid gear is literally the best gear for ALL purposes in Legion including PVP this time around for all specs -- not just the ones that have their turn at a legendary through raiding.

[kary]

If the gear of a raider is truly only used to make raids easier, why does it also work in world quests, pvp, transmog farming & old raid mount farming? Why do YOU AS A RAIDER wear gear past 855 outside of a raid?

You already outgear the content, why would you want it to be easier?

The question would make sense if raid gear only worked in raids, but raid gear is literally the best gear for ALL purposes in Legion including PVP this time around for all specs -- not just the ones that have their turn at a legendary through raiding.

This has to be the most pants-on-head post I've seen in a long time, and that says a lot.

[Zoneseek]

This has to be the most pants-on-head post I've seen in a long time, and that says a lot.

Really? Why? Made perfect sense to me, and hes right. Gear helps in almost every aspect of the game. Not just raiding. Why would only raiders want good gear?

[Ashnazg]

Really? Why? Made perfect sense to me, and hes right. Gear helps in almost every aspect of the game. Not just raiding. Why would only raiders want good gear?

If you want to pvp, there's the pvp gearing progression ladder (870 gear).

If you want to raid, you can gear up from raiding.

If you want to engage in hardcore 5 man content, you have mythic+, which are infinitely easier to organize and pug than EN HM raids, and reward more gear for the time invested.

If you want to dick around Dalaran and harvest flowers in the wild, you have your WQ and possibility of titanforging / WF.

Gearing is fine.

[dm10169]

I thought they did a good job initially with the Unseen Set gained from various Rep Factions, Achievements, etc... that gear was equivalent to normal Mythics, plus they had set bonuses...I was really happy with that, but after you progress past the unseen set, now your stuck needed to raid or do keystones to progress... The unseen set should be able to be upgraded! 0/5 through Order Resources.....to max at current raid level items, currently 850-865 for normal

[Zoneseek]

If you want to pvp, there's the pvp gearing progression ladder (870 gear).

If you want to raid, you can gear up from raiding.

If you want to engage in hardcore 5 man content, you have mythic+, which are infinitely easier to organize and pug than EN HM raids, and reward more gear for the time invested.

If you want to dick around Dalaran and harvest flowers in the wild, you have your WQ and possibility of titanforging / WF.

Gearing is fine.

This didn't answer why someone would NOT want good gear if they don't raid. Good summery of uh...stuff though.

[Ashnazg]

This didn't answer why someone would NOT want good gear if they don't raid. Good summery of uh...stuff though.

I know - it wasn't specifically aimed at your question (even though I quoted you), but the point was that there are gearing progression paths available to anyone - raiders or no raiders.