No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Saracens]

Once again this thread will receive a warning. Keep the discussion focused on the topic and stop the user focused bashing, or the thread will be closed.

[Mafic]

Flying was added in TBC and it was a bloody big selling point. People had a hard-on for flying. the hard-on was so big that they constantly demanded to be able to fly in Azeroth, which wasn't possible, because Classic WoW was build without flying in mind. Enter the Cataclysm, the rebuild of the world and flying everywhere.

If that was Blizzard's mistake, then people should really forever shut up and let devs decide everything. We are at this state because people constantly demanded it and IMHO: if flying would never ever have been introduced, this thread would still exist (and tons more) demanding flight.

The problem I think is that the decision of how and when flying will be unlocked in Legion is still vague and too eerily similar to how it was handled with WoD. Thus, you are seeing a situation where players are reluctant to agree to a decision to having flying gated till "mid expansion".

What does mid expansion even mean anymore after experiencing an expansion like WoD where the last content patch was patch 6.2. I am pretty sure Legion is going to have more than two patches, but how many and how are they spaced out determines the future of flight in Legion IMVHO.

[Thimagryn]

Blizzard is not willing to put in the resources to make a non flying world work:

1. Did they revamp Archaeology? No.
2. Gathering professions are in bad shape. Did they increase drop rates or success chance for rank? Nope.
3. Are world quests worthwhile doing beyond the first month? To an extent, but more of a Pavlovian lever or more precisely a Skinner box.
4. Flight whistle not keeping up with player demands as artifact power needs increase.
5. Heavy focus on instanced content for Legion. Yes.

Overall, you can't argue Blizzard is willing to make a non flying world work when they do not even try. This is why flying is vital to the endgame world of Legion moving forward IMVHO.

Even if they did address every one of those points you brought up, we would still be asking for flight. Why? Because you can't replace flight by throwing other content at us. People have used the argument that changes to the Garrison and World Content would be enough to not need flight. Those things were already fixed, yet here we are still asking for flight despite having improved world content and more reason to be in the world.

The list of things that make world content better is irrelevant. As someone who actually wants flight, I wouldn't consider Archaeology, higher profession drop rates and wider world quest variety as a replacement. Just like the Garrison argument, it's a scapegoat excuse. None of these are driving reasons to have flight.

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And I want proof that flying is bad for the game. No anti-flyer (not even Blizzard) has provided anything but subjective biased BS.

That's because the discussion is subjective, at best.

What needs to be understood is that flight can be both good for the game and bad for it. It isn't a binary thing.

Think of it as if we were discussing having alcohol in a theatre (legally). Some think as long as it's permitted they should be allowed to enjoy it in a theatre. Others would point out the potential of abuse. There's no right or wrong answer, and there's clear pros and cons to it all. In Blizzard's case, they're keeping it 'family friendly' so the answer is no alcohol until after 10.

[-Joker-]

Would you mind to explain "wildly popular"? Because people arguing against "WoW is dead" with "there is still no other MMO out here that is even close in the range of WoW".
Dont't get me wrong, other games are successful too. But popular is being the word for "many people playing it", which is over millions since WoW first started. So... successful yes, popular... want to know the definition. Besides that, two of the biggest competitors (in terms of numbers) just recently added flying to their game while Blizzard try to cut it out, which are Final Fantasy a Realm reborn and Guildwars 2 Heart of thorns. So the situation in general is not a very good example of flight getting cut from a game being a good idea. More the opposite like "to make a game more successful simply add flight to it".

pop·u·lar
adjective
1. liked, admired, or enjoyed by many people or by a particular person or group

Wildly simply means very. So something that is very popular.

As of May this year, SWtOR had 300k subs, and twice that in F2P. There are a similar number of players in Rift, Eve, Aion, and even EQ after all these years. WoW is not dead. If anything ever did kill WoW it would be WoW itself, or as I called it, Warlords of Draenor. While wow clearly has the larger numbers, there is no definitive proof that flight was the reason. In fact, if we follow the trail of flight, one could postulate quite the opposite. Now, I don't believe flight had any major bearing on the game, but it would be easy to pin it more to a negative effect.



We could fly at the end of TBC, but only in outland. We could fly at the end of Wrath, but only in Northrend. Cata gave us flying right out of the gate, and I loved that expansion. But what did the final numbers look like? MoP had two different sorts of flight. One for zones, another for serpents. Look at those ending numbers. WoD which drastically under-delivered allowed flight with 6.2, but was not enough to keep the game from dipping below 3M subs. It's lowest point since Vanilla. Only time will tell what Legion does.

Would I enjoy flight and use it everyday? You bet. The minute it unlocks I am going after it. Do I need it to play Legion, or to enjoy myself? No. The content is enjoyable as is. It looks as though it will only improve.

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I've been preaching that far longer than Rebecca. I'm already there, I haven't subbed back for reasons beyond just flight being back. I'll wait until there's content for me to consume that isn't being artificially gated or prolonged. I don't think it's within our control to convince Blizzard to change how they wish to design their game. If gating and withholding features is in their best interest, then so is not subbing until it's within my best interest.

Well then I guess we are done here. I only debate with those who are actively part of the system. Unsubbed and unbought but complaining here is like not voting and then complaining about who got elected. It's a shame something as minuscule as flight has people out of the game.

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Once again this thread will receive a warning. Keep the discussion focused on the topic and stop the user focused bashing, or the thread will be closed.

Hopefully offenders will just receive a lengthy vacation in lieu of closing a thread that some of us are discussing politely and rationally.

[Idoru]

It's a shame something as minuscule as flight has people out of the game.

For some of us it is a lot more than minuscule.

[-Joker-]

For some of us it is a lot more than minuscule.

A form of travel vs actual content/gameplay

[Idoru]

A form of travel vs actual content/gameplay

I have done all the content.

[Thimagryn]

Well then I guess we are done here. I only debate with those who are actively part of the system. Unsubbed and unbought but complaining here is like not voting and then complaining about who got elected. It's a shame something as minuscule as flight has people out of the game.

I'm personally out of the game for reasons beyond flight. I power game, and I can plow through years of expansion content in mere weeks. Flight is a miniscule thing for me, which is why I can argue both sides of the argument. I only oppose false or irrational reasoning (excuses), not individual opinion. Doesn't matter if it comes from either side, I argue both for or against flight because it is not a binary 'Good' or 'Bad' feature. There's also nothing shameful about leaving the game because of lack of flight. Everyone values things differently, and without this understanding we ultimately project our own opinions onto others. That itself defeats the purpose of discussion.

I've stated before that we can do little to change what Blizzard chooses, but it doesn't mean discussion should stop. The complaints need to be focused on critical reasoning and presentable issues. Pointing at broken features or equating flight to cheat codes does nothing but complicate the message.

[Mafic]

For some of us it is a lot more than minuscule.

Yeah if you do world dailies, gathering professions, archaeology, fishing, etc it is a huge chunk of game time lost without flying mounts. A flight whistle is only good to bridge the gap for world quests sporadically at best.

This is why flying to WoW's endgame has been so important and yet so overlooked until recently.

[rebecca191]

Actually, not buying the expac and unsubbing are voting. Voting with our wallets, the only vote we have. The only people that can be compared to those who don't vote in elections but are unhappy with results are the players unhappy with WoW but keep paying for it anyway.

[-Joker-]

I have done all the content.

As have I, on 3 different characters, yet I am not lobbying in poor fashion for the implementation of flight.

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but it doesn't mean discussion should stop. The complaints need to be focused on critical reasoning and presentable issues. Pointing at broken features or equating flight to cheat codes does nothing but complicate the message.

There is a difference about expressing your dislike with the decision to lock flight until a later expac, and distorting (not you, but other pro-fliers in this thread) the magnitude of flight and its impact on the game at large. While it may appear to them that the sky is falling and there is no hope or joy left in the game, other not so dramatic players get along just fine without it. I also don't approve of posters such as this one:

Citation needed.

Who are simply here to poke at said pro-fliers, put them on the defensive, and rile them until their crazy is unleashed in every response. I have no time or patience for people who simply want to push the buttons of others, rather than focus on the topic of the thread, and explain their position in a more civil manner. There is plenty of constructive discussion to be had, but it takes effort on both sides not to just unleash the crazy, or poke crazy with a stick.

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Actually, not buying the expac and unsubbing are voting. Voting with our wallets, the only vote we have. The only people that can be compared to those who don't vote in elections but are unhappy with results are the players unhappy with WoW but keep paying for it anyway.

I disagree. I think if you purchased it, and subbed to it, and are now a dissatisfied customer, you have every right to complain about the game and/or your missing feature. But if you never bought it, or subbed to it, and simply played some free time, that is nowhere near the same thing, and should be heard, but not hold much weight. A vote with your wallet is a vote to stay out of the serious circle. I would rather cater to the dissatisfied customer who purchased my product than the customer who only got the free sample and still wants to complain about the product.

[Thimagryn]

I disagree. I think if you purchased it, and subbed to it, and are now a dissatisfied customer, you have every right to complain about the game and/or your missing feature. But if you never bought it, or subbed to it, and simply played some free time, that is nowhere near the same thing, and should be heard, but not hold much weight. A vote with your wallet is a vote to stay out of the serious circle. I would rather cater to the dissatisfied customer who purchased my product than the customer who only got the free sample and still wants to complain about the product.

Why would someone who is dissatisfied with a product continue to support a company with currency? Just to have their voice heard?

What Blizzard needs to address are not only customer complaints, but consumer complaints. Even if we are not the paying customer, we are the ones the game is aimed towards. Blizzard's design caters to a wide demographic and the lowest common denominator (ie casual equity) that affect enthusiast activities (ie pro-flight, pro-Vanilla). The voice of the consumer should be no different from that of the customer, unless you think toys should be designed for parents and no thought taken from the kids who aren't paying for them.

The definition of customer also falls under a grey area, considering few games of this stature implement a paid service subscription model. What would we define the value of F2P crowd? Are their opinions less credible because they aren't buying skins and heroes?

[-Joker-]

Why would someone who is dissatisfied with a product continue to support a company with currency? Just to have their voice heard?

What Blizzard needs to address are not only customer complaints, but consumer complaints. Even if we are not the paying customer, we are the ones the game is aimed towards. Blizzard's design caters to a wide demographic and the lowest common denominator (ie casual equity) that affect enthusiast activities (ie pro-flight, pro-Vanilla). The voice of the consumer should be no different from that of the customer, unless you think toys should be designed for parents and no thought taken from the kids who aren't paying for them.

The definition of customer also falls under a grey area, considering few games of this stature implement a paid service subscription model. What would we define the value of F2P crowd? Are their opinions less credible because they aren't buying skins and heroes?

You missed it entirely.

1. Purchase product
2. Try product
3. If dissatisfied, get refund
4. Lodge complaint about quality of product

You want:

1. Play without paying
2. Lodge complaint about product

I am all for having an opinion heard, but when it is based solely on some free play time, and the complainer really has nothing invested, they really just don't have the right to complain. Just like the voting analogy. Cast an actual vote and then you have the right to complain about an election. Cast a pretend vote (playing for free) and never go to the voting booth (never purchasing the game) then you have no real say in the matter. I am all for consumer complaints, but not random complaints. I've gotten refunds from Blizz before and expressed my dismay.

The right to complain about flight, or the lack thereof, come with a sub.

[Thimagryn]

You're considering 'Legion' as a separate entity from World of Warcraft itself. The fact that any of us have paid and played WoW makes us customers. That makes us the voters. Legion changing game systems is akin to the government changing policies.

The analogy you present assumes that unsubbing is equal to not voting. It is actually more like having supported the losing side (in this case, wanting max-level flying). Unsubbing with intent (listing a reason) is a vote, one that carries a message of 'no confidence'. WoW isn't a 2-party system, so there is no choice in 'voting' other than to unsub with intent. It's not like we can place our money into servers that have flying.

[Mafic]

Ah, interesting. Was only aware of a poll here where they published how 25% (not on MMO C) had unlocked flying and tried to find out how many on MMO-C had it unlocked and we were at 50% (as in: the people here are usually spending more time in the game, achieving higher goals and faster.

Since the achievement is account unlock it was datamined to have been completed by that amount of the players that were still active. Legion's is harder to track because of the greater requirements and segmented portions.

[Deleted]

Yeah if you do world dailies, gathering professions, archaeology, fishing, etc it is a huge chunk of game time lost without flying mounts. A flight whistle is only good to bridge the gap for world quests sporadically at best.

This is why flying to WoW's endgame has been so important and yet so overlooked until recently.

Flying does trivialize a bunch of stuff though. And for once, it actually matters if the content is more trivialized than it already is by better gear being more easily available. The open world has relevant content that people should do, and there are a bunch of ways to make the transportation less tedious, while not entirely trivializing it.

I was very much FOR flying for WoD, because the open world was mostly irrelevant, and if you decided to spend time in the open world, it was mostly to kill time. You couldn't really get anything worthwhile from it, and definitely not any gear. Legion is different, and as such, not being able to fly until later is actually fair enough.

[Ordinator]

Who are simply here to poke at said pro-fliers, put them on the defensive, and rile them until their crazy is unleashed in every response. I have no time or patience for people who simply want to push the buttons of others, rather than focus on the topic of the thread, and explain their position in a more civil manner. There is plenty of constructive discussion to be had, but it takes effort on both sides not to just unleash the crazy, or poke crazy with a stick.

I guess not everyone can stomach the pro flying sensationalism quite as well.

[rebecca191]

You're considering 'Legion' as a separate entity from World of Warcraft itself. The fact that any of us have paid and played WoW makes us customers. That makes us the voters. Legion changing game systems is akin to the government changing policies.

The analogy you present assumes that unsubbing is equal to not voting. It is actually more like having supported the losing side (in this case, wanting max-level flying). Unsubbing with intent (listing a reason) is a vote, one that carries a message of 'no confidence'. WoW isn't a 2-party system, so there is no choice in 'voting' other than to unsub with intent. It's not like we can place our money into servers that have flying.

Exactly. Anyone who spent years playing WoW has invested a great deal of time and money into the game. Choosing to not purchase an expansion and cancelling a subscription because it is missing something the player needs in order to have fun is voting. If anyone should be criticized, it should be those who endlessly complain how bad the game is while continuing to give Blizzard money every month. Blizzard doesn't care if people are having fun if they keep paying a subscription fee every month no matter what.

[Mafic]

Flying does trivialize a bunch of stuff though. And for once, it actually matters if the content is more trivialized than it already is by better gear being more easily available. The open world has relevant content that people should do, and there are a bunch of ways to make the transportation less tedious, while not entirely trivializing it.

I was very much FOR flying for WoD, because the open world was mostly irrelevant, and if you decided to spend time in the open world, it was mostly to kill time. You couldn't really get anything worthwhile from it, and definitely not any gear. Legion is different, and as such, not being able to fly until later is actually fair enough.

Legion's world content is no longer relevant as of last week. Not even one month after launch and the world content is no longer relevant while sub system suffer with the removal of flight.

This is why flying binds and supports so many sub systems like archaeology, professions, and fishing which all promote world interactions that are not instanced focused like raids, dungeons and PVP.

[Ordinator]

Legion's world content is no longer relevant as of last week.

Excuse me but what? How can there be a hard cut off to relevancy and who are you to determine it? I'm in the world right now and it still seems pretty damn relevant and there are still plenty of people in it.