Exorsus warlocks

[Deleted]

-snip-

Before the changes we usually didn't see locks in the top 1000, which is pretty bad by any standard. Some specs also got nerfed, and the net result was warlocks being relatively better off, and before that it wasn't exactly wrong to say that warlocks were pretty / very bad.

Well, sometimes it just seems that way, mostly because of the "warlocks are perfectly fine for mythic+", etc. I guess I'm reading that as "nothing is wrong with warlocks" and not "warlocks can do well in mythic+ unless pushing for top world ranks". It is hard to tell sometimes, but I guess that is part of reading forum posts.

[Leymour]

Please go away.

There is literally nothing wrong with having to spec swap or talent change to be better at a different style of boss fight. At all. This has VERY commonly been the case for a LOT of classes in WoW. It is not new to the game and it is not new to Warlocks.

How can you say that when the game is designed around building your artifact as developing our spec? What other DPS class has to change SPECS every fight to be ADEQUATE? Mages? lol. Rogues? Naw. Assassination is the top on all fights but 1 (AoE).

Nevermind that we lose to hybrids who don't have to change specs at all! SP, Enh, Feral, Ret all consistently place above all of our specs.

We are NOT garbage in Mythic+ dungeons. YOU might be, but the class is 100% fine in Mythic+ dungeons - we are better than most classes and provide some of the highest sustained AoE/multitarget in the game with perfectly adequate single target. You not figuring it out =/= the class not being capable.

You have to be Demo to do solid ST, which is AWFUL in AoE. You have to be Affliction to do solid AoE. Guess what? Awful ST.

It's like you live in a bubble with no outward comparison. Look at the other DPS classes who have 1 consistent DPS spec. Look at the hybrids who have 1 DPS spec destroying us. Enough said.

[Jondar]

How can you say that when the game is designed around building your artifact as developing our spec? What other DPS class has to change SPECS every fight to be ADEQUATE?

Because leveling two artifacts to the point of being playable is not hard. And we don't have to change specs every fight - that's just you being dramatic. And if the concept of spec swapping is too much for you, you're playing the wrong game.

It's like you live in a bubble with no outward comparison. Look at the other DPS classes who have 1 consistent DPS spec. Look at the hybrids who have 1 DPS spec destroying us. Enough said.

This is 100% a case of you not knowing what you are doing. I hope no one takes you too seriously, and I hope you take some time to figure out what you're doing wrong before spreading this type of garbage dumpster recycling bin trash compost waste. Demo is not awful AoE and Destruction does great AoE and Single Target in Mythic+. Affliction has its problems, yet, Affliction is 1/3 specs.

- - - Updated - - -

Before the changes we usually didn't see locks in the top 1000, which is pretty bad by any standard. Some specs also got nerfed, and the net result was warlocks being relatively better off, and before that it wasn't exactly wrong to say that warlocks were pretty / very bad.

Well, sometimes it just seems that way, mostly because of the "warlocks are perfectly fine for mythic+", etc. I guess I'm reading that as "nothing is wrong with warlocks" and not "warlocks can do well in mythic+ unless pushing for top world ranks". It is hard to tell sometimes, but I guess that is part of reading forum posts.

Yeah but like.. before the changes, there was what.. one week of Heroic clears as the least represented class? I mean, I'm glad we got the buffs and think they were well deserved but there's no doubt in my mind that people preemptively jumped the gun on the "warloxx suk" bandwagon - and we're still seeing the residual effects of that bandwagon leaving the building. Some of the same people that were doing the complaining have said they barely even noticed the buffs - which puts it pretty heavily on "L2P" issues rather than balance issues.

[Leymour]

I mean I can keep arguing with you about how bad Warlocks are or you can just look at the logs.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#difficulty=4

If you think a Pure DPS class should be that low and not have 1 viable spec (Like Fire Mages, Assassination Rogues, MM hunters) I guess we have a difference of philosophy. I rolled a DPS class to do DPS, looks like I should have been a hybrid.

[Jondar]

I mean I can keep arguing with you about how bad Warlocks are or you can just look at the logs.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#difficulty=4

If you think a Pure DPS class should be that low and not have 1 viable spec (Like Fire Mages, Assassination Rogues, MM hunters) I guess we have a difference of philosophy. I rolled a DPS class to do DPS, looks like I should have been a hybrid.

You literally just ignored everything I said and listed Warcraft Logs that weren't at all relevant to the points you were initially trying to make.

But being a DPS class has never meant you are going to do more DPS than Hybrid DPS classes. Ever. And it's been very widely accepted that it shouldn't mean that, either. Between that and your surprise at having to spec swap, I'd say you must be kinda new to the game.. but then I see your 2010 join date and I'm very, very confused.

[Leymour]

I mean you are responding by attacking me personally instead of recognizing that Warlocks are awful in raids, and lack versatility for Mythic+. Feel free to look up my warlock, Elliryanna, what is yours?

Swapping specs has never been a requirement, nor should it for the reasons I already listed (See: Other DPS classes). Being a DPS class has ALWAYS meant one spec should be competitive. Blizzard has historically said they want DPS classes to be competitive in DPS.

[Jondar]

I mean you are responding by attacking me personally instead of recognizing that Warlocks are awful in raids, and lack versatility for Mythic+. Feel free to look up my warlock, Elliryanna, what is yours?

It is not a personal attack to tell you you are wrong and do not know what you are talking about if you say things that prove that on your own. Warlocks are not awful in raids and they do not lack versatility for Mythic+. You saying that is an indication that you do not fully understand how to utilize your Warlock.

This is my Warlock's Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...medeezy/simple
And here are my logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...1624749/latest

Swapping specs has never been a requirement, nor should it for the reasons I already listed (See: Other DPS classes). Being a DPS class has ALWAYS meant one spec should be competitive. Blizzard has historically said they want DPS classes to be competitive in DPS.

And it isn't a requirement now. You can do any single target fight as Destro and do enough to get the kill and you can do any AoE fight as Demo and do enough to get the kill. But if you want to play optimally, spec swapping is not a new concept.

[Gaidax]

There are issues, but Mythic+ is not one of them.

[Halwyn]

You have to be Demo to do solid ST, which is AWFUL in AoE. You have to be Affliction to do solid AoE. Guess what? Awful ST.

You know there's a 3rd spec? Destruction ST in M+ is fine simply because the boss doesn't live long enough for the Demo's tunneling to catch up unless it's a very high level M+ with or without Tyranical. Also, we're talking pure ST, every additional target increases Destro's power and we all know Destruction for it's switching power.
As for AoE deraptment, while Destruction certainly doesn't shine it got enormous cleave potential, which comes in more handy in higher difficulties with smaller pulls.
Finally, Shadowfury. You can't go wrong with having a mass stun in Mythic+. Unless you have a prot warr of course.

ps: seeing Gaidax's post below, yep... 1 min CD Shieldwall is nuts.

[Lucrece]

I mean I can keep arguing with you about how bad Warlocks are or you can just look at the logs.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#difficulty=4

If you think a Pure DPS class should be that low and not have 1 viable spec (Like Fire Mages, Assassination Rogues, MM hunters) I guess we have a difference of philosophy. I rolled a DPS class to do DPS, looks like I should have been a hybrid.

Outlaw is a far superior spec to assassination. Don't know why you keep bringing assassination up when it will get outscaled by sub in single target and absolutely trashed by outlaw in cleave/aoe.

Outlaw rogue is the supreme melee spec.

spriest/fire mage supreme casters. Hunters are a nice alternative if you want a simple playstyle than spriest/fire mage.

[Gaidax]

TBH, the latest fashion Destruction build for high M+ has plenty of AoE, F&B/Sac/RoF is really very good sustained AoE and Shadowfury is indispensable, last week we had M10 Raging+Necro+Fortified and if you do not stun mobs when they are below 30%, then people WILL be dying, because such shit like unavoidable instant lightning nuke from Runecaster (or what's his name) hits for like 2.5M damage and as a lock you may survive by skin of your teeth, but if it targets mage or priest it's oneshot for sure.

Sidenote +10 Raging/Necro/Fort is absolute BS.

[Lucrece]

TBH, the latest fashion Destruction build for high M+ has plenty of AoE, F&B/Sac/RoF is really very good sustained AoE and Shadowfury is indispensable, last week we had M10 Raging+Necro+Fortified and if you do not stun mobs when they are below 30%, then people WILL be dying, because such shit like unavoidable instant lightning nuke from Runecaster (or what's his name) hits for like 2.5M damage and as a lock you may survive by skin of your teeth, but if it targets mage or priest it's oneshot for sure.

Sidenote +10 Raging/Necro/Fort is absolute BS.

Trash are overtuned anyways.

To me it's simply absurd as a tank that the majority of my cooldown usage and risk of wipe stands with trash packs instead of a boss. No boss hits me even as close to hard as, say, the boulderback giants in neltharion's lair or the demonhunter trash in vault.

Maybe Tirathon in havoc might be brutal, and if violet hold had mythic+ perhaps the faceless boss might also be scary, but that's as far as hardhitting bosses go. Inquisitor does more damage due to the fact that you have to pick up trash while trying to not get disoriented by eyes or wasting abilities on sap soul while picking up said adds, but he himself is not remotely threatening.

Some of the trash actually autoattacks harder than bosses. It's just wrong, the crux of difficulty in a fight should be with a boss not mindless hp bags with amped up damage values.

This whole garbage with trash also unfairly creates class prejudice as it just so happens that the strong mythic+ melee and casters/ranged like fire mage that already dominate aoe also happen to be the classes with instant cast aoe stuns that come with little opportunity cost.

When trash is the primary obstacle of mythic+, it just favors raw aoe and aoe cc classes, on top of the already shoddy balance in other utility classes have like say a shaman or mage not only bringing aoe stuns, but heroism, ranged interrupts, and heroism.

It also doesn't help that mythic dungeons have significantly higher artifact power payouts than raids themselves.

[VladimirM]

Warlocks have no place in raids beyond Normal EN

then you see this guy outperformed/outdpsed by warlock and laugh at him.

This went far from topic. Like someone said - Exorsus not bringing any locks isn't indicating anything good or bad about our class.
Also, when looking at logs, don't just look at final numbers and hold onto them. Click on that person, check damage done to targets. See if (s)he switched to adds, whored ichors on Il'gnoth, bothered to switch on prio target, had certain job to do etc... That is the key here.

[Deleted]

There is literally nothing wrong with having to spec swap or talent change to be better at a different style of boss fight. At all. This has VERY commonly been the case for a LOT of classes in WoW. It is not new to the game and it is not new to Warlocks.




We are NOT garbage in Mythic+ dungeons. YOU might be, but the class is 100% fine in Mythic+ dungeons - we are better than most classes and provide some of the highest sustained AoE/multitarget in the game with perfectly adequate single target. You not figuring it out =/= the class not being capable.

There is an issue when other classes don;t have to swap. Why should warlocks have to swap specs just to be adequate? Sure, spec swapping is not new, but Legion takes it to new heights - particularly for warlocks, because our different specs feel like they are so boxed in.

Affliction, for example, it is just bad at most things except trash AOE - where it is exceptional, but only if you talent for it.

No class should have to swap specs just to be competetive, this is completely against Blizzard's own philosophy of not wanting players to feel forced into playing a way they don't like because there are clear winner/clear loser specs within a class.

To expect a player to level up three arifacts and to learn three different specs which are quite different just to be competetive against people in other classes is absurd. It might be fine for elite players who have the time and the skill for that, but most people want to stick to a playstyle they actually enjoy and it's not unreasonable for them to expect to be competetive whilst they are doing that.

I don;t see any other class swapping between specs or having to carry armfuls of tomes

And the point the poster you're replying to was this: warlocks tend to lack an all-rounder build, particularly affliction and demonology. That is obvous when you see a fire mage taking Living Bomb vs an affliction warlock taking Sow the Seeds for example.

Fire mages, hunters, probably our most directly comparable classes, have good all-rounder builds. As an afflock I can be supreme at trash aoe in Mythic+ - but either of those can do pretty good aoe but also much better boss damage.

For that reason alone, they ar emore attractive to groups - all-rounders always will be.

Swapping specs and talents was bad enough - it indicates a design failure, it makes people use playstyles they don't like, it ramps up the learning and skill curves - but that was before we got artifacts and the talent change cost (not that you can change talents in + anyway)

Playing a warlock just feels like you are constantly dragging around an anchor chained to your ankles

[Sixy]

then you see this guy outperformed/outdpsed by warlock and laugh at him.

This went far from topic. Like someone said - Exorsus not bringing any locks isn't indicating anything good or bad about our class.
Also, when looking at logs, don't just look at final numbers and hold onto them. Click on that person, check damage done to targets. See if (s)he switched to adds, whored ichors on Il'gnoth, bothered to switch on prio target, had certain job to do etc... That is the key here.

I mean neither they or Method brought any monks either, that certainly does not mean that monks are trash. ^^

[Deleted]

Just that there are better melee dps and healer classes. Which is the point.

[Tweetster]

This is why Blizzard is dumbing down the game.

Apologies for coming to the forums to gain info to enable me to play better...
And fyi I'd much prefer the game to incorporate difficult rotations in order to achieve the best results.
Thanks for your input...

[Baconeggcheese]

Trash are overtuned anyways.

To me it's simply absurd as a tank that the majority of my cooldown usage and risk of wipe stands with trash packs instead of a boss.

How high have you pushed? Because bosses will wipe you plenty on 10+. Though trash being generally scarier than bosses isn't exactly new, this was also true in CM's. You can't really expect bosses to be as scary as trash when you can continue to pull more and more trash up to your limit whereas bosses are by themselves.
@Tweetster Word of advice, just ignore the assholes and don't respond to them.

[Gaidax]

How high have you pushed? Because bosses will wipe you plenty on 10+. Though trash being generally scarier than bosses isn't exactly new, this was also true in CM's. You can't really expect bosses to be as scary as trash when you can continue to pull more and more trash up to your limit whereas bosses are by themselves.

I don't think US has experienced the pleasure of Raging/Necrotic/Fortified combo yet, correct me if I'm wrong? You aren't going to pull more and more trash with that, unless you are really a star A+ team.

And yes, Hymdall opened us a new one on +10 too, although I suspect it was tanking issue as the guy had tanking offspec and like 13 points in tank artifact.

It took us like an hour and 30 mins to finish HoV +10, god... like lockdown CC on trash was a must, bosses fell over in comparison, except for Hymdall, who kept oneshotting tank. Had like some wipes on other bosses too, but Hymdall was ridiculous, easily spent 30 minutes just there.

[Baconeggcheese]

I don't think US has experienced the pleasure of Raging/Necrotic/Fortified combo yet, correct me if I'm wrong? You aren't going to pull more and more trash with that, unless you are really a star A+ team.

First week had bolstering which is enough to prevent that. This week is teeming skittish fortified, which is again enough to make trash a massive issue.

Hymdall I haven't had much a problem with, melandrus and shade of xavius on the other hand. The dps check on melandrus gets absolutely ridiculous, and xavius will literally just 1shot people with unavoidable dmg where you NEED a major cd to survive.

Last week was also tyrannical, which made a lot of bosses absolutely ridiculous. I thankfully didn't get melandrus with that which is good because I'm fairly confident he'd be practically unkillable with the health and dmg bump at current gear levels.