Brewmaster Hotfix Buff

[Siphonfilter20]

I do not believe that anything gained via Blackout Combo can rival 10% increased Stagger and Haste based on Stagger. At high levels of stagger you can literally have 45% haste, clearing it actually makes you worse off. Whereas really the only pros of Blackout Combo are stagger delay, elusive brawler, flame breath cooldown and Keg smash. All of these things are simply QoL over High Tolerance hence why people are asking for Blackout Combo to be baseline and for something else in its place.

I'm not saying Blackout Combo is good, I'm simply saying High Tolerance (for now) is better.

[Deleted]

I do not believe that anything gained via Blackout Combo can rival 10% increased Stagger and Haste based on Stagger. At high levels of stagger you can literally have 45% haste, clearing it actually makes you worse off. Whereas really the only pros of Blackout Combo are stagger delay, elusive brawler, flame breath cooldown and Keg smash. All of these things are simply QoL over High Tolerance hence why people are asking for Blackout Combo to be baseline and for something else in its place.

I'm not saying Blackout Combo is good, I'm simply saying High Tolerance (for now) is better.

I mean don't get me wrong, sure i'd love to have BoC baseline, I think HT is delish considering the current state of BrM but I enjoy the interactive playstyle of BoC, I just wish we reaped more reward for the hardwork going into it. I've played HT a bit and in raiding it probably will pull ahead on most fights but M+ i'll always run BoC for now.

[Siphonfilter20]

I mean don't get me wrong, sure i'd love to have BoC baseline, I think HT is delish considering the current state of BrM but I enjoy the interactive playstyle of BoC, I just wish we reaped more reward for the hardwork going into it. I've played HT a bit and in raiding it probably will pull ahead on most fights but M+ i'll always run BoC for now.

Have just come from testing the 5% increased stagger buff (and I'm very happy with how quick it falls off out of combat now)

But Blackout Combo needs to be baseline, Whenever I have used it I constantly felt like "I need to do X but it wont be as good without Blackout combo" so my tanking would suffer because I couldn't use X ability RIGHT now because it would be worse without Blackout Combo up, essentially forcing you to make sure Blackout Combo is up before you do anything that benefits from it. Whereas with High Tolerance, this isn't an issue and like you said its "easier"

Monk tanks already have a very high skill level compared to other tanks, Blackout Combo makes that even worse.

[Segus1992]

Sure, and you are one of the countless "Monks are fine, L2play durp" people that everyone is sick of.

High Tolerance is BETTER, not easier. BETTER. Fact.

But please, tell me how Blackout Combo is better and why?

How about you prove the reverse (math, not "feels better man") since you're the one claiming it's objectively better?

[Deleted]

Have just come from testing the 5% increased stagger buff (and I'm very happy with how quick it falls off out of combat now)

But Blackout Combo needs to be baseline, Whenever I have used it I constantly felt like "I need to do X but it wont be as good without Blackout combo" so my tanking would suffer because I couldn't use X ability RIGHT now because it would be worse without Blackout Combo up, essentially forcing you to make sure Blackout Combo is up before you do anything that benefits from it. Whereas with High Tolerance, this isn't an issue and like you said its "easier"

Monk tanks already have a very high skill level compared to other tanks, Blackout Combo makes that even worse.

I just prefer to be able to squeeze out that little bit more to help my healer in scenarios, BoC allows that.

[Tuskchi]

I managed to do only 1 Mythic last night. Tanked with BoC and Ox Statue (not Leg Sweep) ....

In terms of Avoidance I was doing 25% Dodge , 5% miss, 60-65% Absorb ( Stagger in our case ).
In terms of Stagger, I had 30% Purify, 70% Stagger Taken.
In terms of Damage Taken, I noticed an increase and my Stagger was my top damage taken with close to 40%. This is totally in line though with the latest 5% increased stagger buff.

So, bottom line, Blackout Combo and High Tolerance are dead even right now for me.

Will further research, but I expect to results to stay the same.

[LoKSET]

They even managed to fix the tooltip. I'm very surprised.

[Deleted]

I managed to do only 1 Mythic last night. Tanked with BoC and Ox Statue (not Leg Sweep) ....

In terms of Avoidance I was doing 25% Dodge , 5% miss, 60-65% Absorb ( Stagger in our case ).
In terms of Stagger, I had 30% Purify, 70% Stagger Taken.
In terms of Damage Taken, I noticed an increase and my Stagger was my top damage taken with close to 40%. This is totally in line though with the latest 5% increased stagger buff.

So, bottom line, Blackout Combo and High Tolerance are dead even right now for me.

Will further research, but I expect to results to stay the same.

I personally again don't think you can look at an end result and claim differences between two talents....I mean every instance is different, others will have more melee, others will have more casters etc; and was this based off mythic? or mythic +? and if the latter then what level?

There is tonnes to take into account and that goes for either side of the argument but raw figures versus situational differences is what counts here. I'll give you a quick example here.

The ability to pause stagger in a Court of Stars +8 (Raging & Necrotic) versus a flat stagger increase is huge, on top of which the reduction on BoF or Keg etc; is what gives the edge here. The skill cap is higher and when played at the min/max level it was intended, I personally find the kit better across a full instance.

I actually don't foresee myself ever taking HT/ED unless some change appears or in a raid setting. Too much variance and trash damage is what hurts in M+ not the bosses (Hi Tyrannical o/)

[Tuskchi]

I personally again don't think you can look at an end result and claim differences between two talents....I mean every instance is different, others will have more melee, others will have more casters etc; and was this based off mythic? or mythic +? and if the latter then what level?

There is tonnes to take into account and that goes for either side of the argument but raw figures versus situational differences is what counts here. I'll give you a quick example here.

The ability to pause stagger in a Court of Stars +8 (Raging & Necrotic) versus a flat stagger increase is huge, on top of which the reduction on BoF or Keg etc; is what gives the edge here. The skill cap is higher and when played at the min/max level it was intended, I personally find the kit better across a full instance.

I actually don't foresee myself ever taking HT/ED unless some change appears or in a raid setting. Too much variance and trash damage is what hurts in M+ not the bosses (Hi Tyrannical o/)

Yeah, sure. Get off your High-skill cap horse ... we are all there.

If you've actually read some of my previous posts, I say that the end results (datawise) are the same, with BoC giving you more flexibility, i.e. what you say about Court of Stars mechanics.

I'm doing comparing runs on (Normal) Mythic, which both specs shouldn't have trouble with. And the results ( at this equal field) are the same. If you have some mechanic in an instance that's catered more towards one of the two talents, yeah, guess what ... the results will be in favor of it ... On equal ground though, HT and BoC are equal.

[Deleted]

Yeah, sure. Get off your High-skill cap horse ... we are all there.

If you've actually read some of my previous posts, I say that the end results (datawise) are the same, with BoC giving you more flexibility, i.e. what you say about Court of Stars mechanics.

I'm doing comparing runs on (Normal) Mythic, which both specs shouldn't have trouble with. And the results ( at this equal field) are the same. If you have some mechanic in an instance that's catered more towards one of the two talents, yeah, guess what ... the results will be in favor of it ... On equal ground though, HT and BoC are equal.

I'm not on a high horse at all mate

I'm just stating the facts in that it does require more than a passive, and people thus far have been claiming its too much work versus HT (not saying it was you) the damage outlet will remain the same but doesn't take away the fact your survival will increase per pack using BoC but also saves healer mana and thus speeds up runs in M+ scenarios.

Coming from a healing background mainly whilst raiding, I'm all about giving breathing room and getting it done with little stress. Overall I find that when damage sources come from more than single, BoC will prevail albeit slightly.

[Will]

Try High Tolerance, you wont regret it. At high stagger you can have upwards of 45% Haste... Blackout combo cannot compete with High Tolerance right now... it just can't. 10% extra Stagger and haste based on your stagger level... Nothing Blackout Combo supplies can match that.

Edit - I also say this as someone who originally went with Blackout Combo as well, but I have changed to High Tolerance and never looked back.

Except you're entirely wrong. HT is 5% haste for light, 10% for medium and 15% for heavy stagger. How on earth did you come to the conclusion it's 15/30/45%? That would make it the obvious winner by far.

Heck, the tooltip even says "You gain up to 15% Haste based on your current level of Stagger." NOT "per your current level of stagger" so it boggles my mind how you people come up with these numbers.

[Deleted]

Except you're entirely wrong. HT is 5% haste for light, 10% for medium and 15% for heavy stagger. How on earth did you come to the conclusion it's 15/30/45%? That would make it the obvious winner by far.

Heck, the tooltip even says "You gain up to 15% Haste based on your current level of Stagger." NOT "per your current level of stagger" so it boggles my mind how you people come up with these numbers.

Are we to assume he means that by gearing haste priority and going to haste cap of 30% /w gear? but then again haste is above 30% so it does beg the question, it'll have a use but worth driving for that much?

[anon5123]

It will help... but if you think this fixes us blizzard... Got a long way to go.

You really think Blizzard is going to make large class changes in a hotfix?

[Deleted]

You really think Blizzard is going to make large class changes in a hotfix?

We only need a few tweaks to damage and perhaps how much we purify, they've done overhauls in hotfixes a considerable amount, take a look at last week

[Gerian]

Blackout Combo will always net more brews per minute than High Tolerance assuming you play perfectly and don't delay Keg Smash in your rotation. 30% haste and 100% perfect play without missing Keg Smash, efficient Tiger Strike energy usage, and perfect Black Ox Brew usage you're netting a hair over 13 brew charges per minute after your initial 3+3 opener. You only need 8 brew charges per minute to have 100% coverage on ISB which leaves 5 for purify if needed.

With High Tolerance and the same 30% haste, Light Stagger is roughly 11.75 brews per minute, Moderate Stagger 12.25 brews per minute. So you're down roughly one brew charge every minute while losing the added perks of Blackout Combo. However, High Tolerance is much more forgiving rotationally and does not punish you for delaying Keg Smash. Every 10% haste works out to roughly 1 more brew per minute, so your mileage may vary. 4 Purifies every minute at 30% haste.

Elusive Dance suffers the most (obviously) with around 11.25 brews per minute leaving just 3 for purifying with your 100% ISB coverage.

The problem, still, is that our Purifying Brew is still garbage. With High Tolerance we're moving more damage into stagger with less opportunities to purify. With Blackout Combo we're able to pause our stagger to catch our breath, but we still need to purify it after the pause or we're not actually benefiting. With Elusive Dance, you may or may not get mileage out of the added dodge chance because, well, RNG is RNG

So lets say we have 5, 4, and 3 purify opportunities for BoC, HT, and ED respectively. Regardless of the actual stagger amount you get:
BoC: 5 Purify x 50% per purify = 250% of stagger removed per minute.
HT: 4 Purify x 50% per = 200% removed
ED: 3 Purify x 65% per = 195% removed

In terms of "effective healing" through purifying HT and ED are close without considering the added dodge from dance, but fewer "oh crap" purifying brews is a horrible choice especially with how rough keystone mythics can be. The added guesswork in brew usage isn't worthwhile when you're "on par" with a much easier to manage talent. In the end, it still loses to BoC for raw purify counts despite eliminating more of our stagger.

tl;dr
10% haste = roughly 1 brew per minute gained
Performance wise BoC > HT ~= ED
Ease of use HT > BoC > ED
We already knew this, numbers make some people (me) happy.

[Deleted]

Blackout Combo will always net more brews per minute than High Tolerance assuming you play perfectly and don't delay Keg Smash in your rotation. 30% haste and 100% perfect play without missing Keg Smash, efficient Tiger Strike energy usage, and perfect Black Ox Brew usage you're netting a hair over 13 brew charges per minute after your initial 3+3 opener. You only need 8 brew charges per minute to have 100% coverage on ISB which leaves 5 for purify if needed.

With High Tolerance and the same 30% haste, Light Stagger is roughly 11.75 brews per minute, Moderate Stagger 12.25 brews per minute. So you're down roughly one brew charge every minute while losing the added perks of Blackout Combo. However, High Tolerance is much more forgiving rotationally and does not punish you for delaying Keg Smash. Every 10% haste works out to roughly 1 more brew per minute, so your mileage may vary. 4 Purifies every minute at 30% haste.

Elusive Dance suffers the most (obviously) with around 11.25 brews per minute leaving just 3 for purifying with your 100% ISB coverage.

The problem, still, is that our Purifying Brew is still garbage. With High Tolerance we're moving more damage into stagger with less opportunities to purify. With Blackout Combo we're able to pause our stagger to catch our breath, but we still need to purify it after the pause or we're not actually benefiting. With Elusive Dance, you may or may not get mileage out of the added dodge chance because, well, RNG is RNG

So lets say we have 5, 4, and 3 purify opportunities for BoC, HT, and ED respectively. Regardless of the actual stagger amount you get:
BoC: 5 Purify x 50% per purify = 250% of stagger removed per minute.
HT: 4 Purify x 50% per = 200% removed
ED: 3 Purify x 65% per = 195% removed

In terms of "effective healing" through purifying HT and ED are close without considering the added dodge from dance, but fewer "oh crap" purifying brews is a horrible choice especially with how rough keystone mythics can be. The added guesswork in brew usage isn't worthwhile when you're "on par" with a much easier to manage talent. In the end, it still loses to BoC for raw purify counts despite eliminating more of our stagger.

tl;dr
10% haste = roughly 1 brew per minute gained
Performance wise BoC > HT ~= ED
Ease of use HT > BoC > ED
We already knew this, numbers make some people (me) happy.

This! <3 /10chars

[Balir]

I'm still of the opinion that Statue needs to go back to being baseline AND reverted back to the MoP absorb bubbles on raid effect. That would bring raid utility, which seems to be a big reason why BrM is under represented in Raiding atm.

[classic username]

So am i that we should get dizzying haze back... i mean spec went from lot of buttons to... 3

[Saverem]

Let's be real here, this is the first thing Blizzard should look into. I still do not understand why this is a Talent. I would suggest to make Blackout Combo baseline, to keep the gameplay and the mitigation it provides. Then as a replacement for it I would see something that interact with ISB. At the Moment we have one Talent that increase the purifying while providing dodge and one that increase the base stagger, why not having a new 100 Talent that would provide for 2s after casting ISB a stagger of 70% to magic damage (number could be ajdusted to Keep it in check in regards to the other Talents) in addition to the standard buff ?

At the end we would keep the Blackout Combo gameplay (which I find amazing too) whatever the level 100 Talent is and at the same time introduce a magic damage specific talent, providing real choice at level 100 depending on what we will be facing.

I agree. BOC should be baseline as it gives the rotation of the spec much needed depth. The 3rd 100 talent should be a spell mitigation of some sort as this is where we fall behind every other tank.

Something like you mentioned or just increasing the baseline stagger spell mitigation by 15% or 20% (so instead of stagger mitigating spells at 50% as it does now, it mitigates 65% or 70%).

[Thra]

Blackout Combo will always net more brews per minute than High Tolerance assuming you play perfectly and don't delay Keg Smash in your rotation. 30% haste and 100% perfect play without missing Keg Smash, efficient Tiger Strike energy usage, and perfect Black Ox Brew usage you're netting a hair over 13 brew charges per minute after your initial 3+3 opener. You only need 8 brew charges per minute to have 100% coverage on ISB which leaves 5 for purify if needed.

With High Tolerance and the same 30% haste, Light Stagger is roughly 11.75 brews per minute, Moderate Stagger 12.25 brews per minute. So you're down roughly one brew charge every minute while losing the added perks of Blackout Combo. However, High Tolerance is much more forgiving rotationally and does not punish you for delaying Keg Smash. Every 10% haste works out to roughly 1 more brew per minute, so your mileage may vary. 4 Purifies every minute at 30% haste.

Elusive Dance suffers the most (obviously) with around 11.25 brews per minute leaving just 3 for purifying with your 100% ISB coverage.

The problem, still, is that our Purifying Brew is still garbage. With High Tolerance we're moving more damage into stagger with less opportunities to purify. With Blackout Combo we're able to pause our stagger to catch our breath, but we still need to purify it after the pause or we're not actually benefiting. With Elusive Dance, you may or may not get mileage out of the added dodge chance because, well, RNG is RNG

So lets say we have 5, 4, and 3 purify opportunities for BoC, HT, and ED respectively. Regardless of the actual stagger amount you get:
BoC: 5 Purify x 50% per purify = 250% of stagger removed per minute.
HT: 4 Purify x 50% per = 200% removed
ED: 3 Purify x 65% per = 195% removed

In terms of "effective healing" through purifying HT and ED are close without considering the added dodge from dance, but fewer "oh crap" purifying brews is a horrible choice especially with how rough keystone mythics can be. The added guesswork in brew usage isn't worthwhile when you're "on par" with a much easier to manage talent. In the end, it still loses to BoC for raw purify counts despite eliminating more of our stagger.

tl;dr
10% haste = roughly 1 brew per minute gained
Performance wise BoC > HT ~= ED
Ease of use HT > BoC > ED
We already knew this, numbers make some people (me) happy.

This! <3 /10chars

Seconded. Actual numbers. I prefer BoC for it's utility and control. Yes it's a bitch at times especially with low haste (I have 14%, thank god it's OS) but you have much more control over your brew's and surv.