[Rant] MMO's need to evolve. I'm getting tired of the same formula for 12 years.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

Serious question: Why bother developing for hardcore players in any capacity? Why bother continuing the stigma of MMOs being for "no life neckbeards"?

Why? Raiding is boring as fuck. Come on, we've done this shit for almost 2 decades now. It's the same formula every time. Clear some boring trash packs, wipe on a boss a bunch of times, then everyone miraculously learns the encounter during a random pull and you down it. This is repeated ad nauseum. Why center an entire genre around this singular experience?

Someone needs to make an entirely casual MMO. You can have something take a while to obtain, but you can design it in a way that there's no real benefit to doing it as fast or hard as possible. Most MMOs these days are just funneling EVERYTHING into raiding. Everything other than raiding is there to get you closer to raiding.

Instead of straight up vertical upgrades and progression, reduce the exponential rates of progression and introduce horizontal progression as a side thing. Dungeons are a fine replacement in lieu of no raids in an MMO. Make the dungeon crawling experience immersive, eventful, and even hard for some. You should be able to do challenging content without feeling like you need to invest yourself into an MMO big time. Without feeling like you need to devote dozens of hours a week to it. It's lame.

There are plenty of features to introduce into an MMO to make it fun for a while without needing raiding. Deep crafting systems. Deep, customizable housing system. Fishing boats, merchant boats, naval vessels designed for combat. Realm vs. Realm PvP. Duels. Merchant systems where you actually feel like you're building a business empire. City systems where you defend your town and populace from invaders, these kinds of things. Garrison invasions? That shit could be 100x cooler.

If I was making an MMO, I wouldn't even bother trying to get the crowd that rushes through my content and completes it all in under a couple weeks then is anxious for more. No one needs those players, they are an extreme minority. And they are cancerous to good game design.

Look at the bullshit that happened with Everquest and Legacy of Steel or whatever it was called (Kaplan's guild), why deal with that bullshit at all?

[Slure]

im assuming you have NO IDEA what went down with project TITAN?

Just in case you dont, Titan was blizzards NEXT NEW GENERATION MMO, which they spent more than 10 years and 80+$million making. After enough trial and errors Titan turned into, you guessed it, overwatch. That is what happens when they try to break the mold. They end up with broken dreams and a fifth of a game.

[Roar-Powah]

We are all waiting for the next Steve Jobs of MMO's.

You mean the guy that never came up with anything original at all, and ripped ideas from other companies. It's what Blizz and other MMOs do now....

[Deleted]

Here's a firestarter of an idea; what if some of the defining aspects of MMOs are, themselves, outdated? What if the best thing to supersede current MMOs is not actually an MMO?

There's some stuff that's been coming out over the last 6 or so years that have really thrown up some questions about where MMOs are meant to thrive, particularly in the action RPG space. For example, things like Monster Hunter and Dark Souls are really, really good at providing structured, multiplayer challenges. Stuff like Diablo 3 provides a grind-heavy experience for people who want it. MOBAs like Dota 2, LoL and HotS provide a relatively high-skill multiplayer PvP option in an RPG-esque environment. Even things like Overwatch are muscling in on the space that MMOs used to occupy, thanks to their accessibility. And where narrative/visual/straight-up RPG experiences are concerned, single-player games step all over MMOs thanks to how much more they can get done without having to worry about the mutliplayer aspect.

The real question is "what kind of experience is unique to an MMO?", because those experiences are the ones that they need to focus on to stay relevant. The content delivery model is already kinda substandard, and there's no point having a mishmash of activities that are all done better in other games. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if a very significant chunk of the audience that WoW has lost since its hayday happened to be cannibalized by stuff like LoL/Dota. They need to succeed in other areas that will do relatively will in an MMO, compared to other genres.

Off the top of my head, things that fit into that category are: raids (in the sense of grouping together with 10-25 regulars for long-term PvE progression), a populated world, the economy, and time-gated progression (for those who actually like it). If we're talking about an MMO that's going to mix up the formula whilst remaining a true MMO, then the ticket to success is probably going to be finding some major things to add to that list. That means finding something new that an MMO can do well, which may not be easy.

That's the true question. What could be added to MMO's to make it a addicting everlasting experience?
I could come up with ideas but in reality i have no idea what i want until some brain man tells me what it is i want.
You have a very good post here that brings up a lot of questions.

What defines a MMO? What could be added while maintaining the MMORPG status?
What if MMO are outdated and what we want is a strong single player campaign with muliplayer aspects?
What if the future is a Skyrim type of game (exploration and constant leveling) but online? (not the elders scrools online we have)

@Lord of Outland
Also love your post. I feel your pain of why MMO cater to harcores and don't make it a amazing casual experience like Skyrim (the offline version) offers.

[yjmark]

Should wow become a sandbox? No that would imply making a completely new game.

I disagree. I think they could slowly start introducing sandbox features into the game without making dramatic changes. Could be as simple as starting with real player housing or something like that. Eventually player housing could turn into dungeons. Progression over time. And this could all be done while still having the rest of the game remain the same.

[Lane]

The thing that attracts a lot of people to MMOs is the persistent world aspect.

This.

If I was making an MMO, I wouldn't even bother trying to get the crowd that rushes through my content and completes it all in under a couple weeks then is anxious for more. No one needs those players, they are an extreme minority. And they are cancerous to good game design.

Agreed with your entire post. I never used to believe in the "vocal minority" until it came to raiders. A subsect of players that even game developers admit comprise less than 10%, but yet somehow seem to dictate end game in every MMO with even GW2 -- what should've been the epitome of a casual MMO -- adding raid content.

im assuming you have NO IDEA what went down with project TITAN?

Source? What I read of Titan was that they couldn't figure figure out a focus for the game or a way to make it fun in MMO format so they salvaged what they had into a different type of game.

What if MMO are outdated and what we want is a strong single player campaign with muliplayer aspects?
What if the future is a Skyrim type of game (exploration and constant leveling) but online? (not the elders scrools online we have)

Well, that's what I would like. The best thing to come out of Legion, for me, are the class hall campaigns. It's the most RPG I've felt in WoW in a long time. I especially love the freedom from faction ties.

I'd also like to see a 'living' world. Dynamic events and locales that change instead of remaining stagnant for years. I'd also potentially like to see a lot more randomness in the world. (I'd need to see it in practice, but it sounds good on paper.) Random NPC events (ESO has a version of this), random rare mob spawns, random quests, things so that your journey through a zone is never the same. I've realized I'm not a fan of instanced content at all, I'd really like to see a world-focused MMO with 'outdoor' content always being relevant. I hate that WoW has so much world content that is consistently made meaningless.

Bumping up the RPG factor would be nice too. I don't want to always be put in the role of the hero and treated as such, I am a mercenary. :P

[l33t]

and other mmos are still just that, mmos, basically wow clones with some twist that makes them "unique". nobody tried anything new really, for example imagine a game:
- where boars lvl 1 wont become obsolete at level 2
- with a world governed by players
- with unique skills obtainable only by few who can then choose whether they want to teach these to anyone else or not
- where unique items are actually unique
- where stats arent just a meaningless number you try to get as high as possible
- where the only fixed thing is who you are (name, race, gender), what you do, how you do it and for whom can change whenever you want

We already had games where player scaled back so mobs aren't becoming obsolete; we already had player governed games; we already had games with unique items being actually unique; its impossible to have a game with stats which aren't a number you try to get as high as possible; aaand the skill part is just absurd. Actually, you should try Minecraft, really. Strangely, it fits most of your desires - except for not being a MMORPG.

[Daedius]

Wait for VR stuff to further develop.

Where's my NERV gear!?

[Maconi]

The MMORPG genre is dead and WoW's one of the last survivors. Even Blizzard knows there's no hope for it (hence the scrapped Titan aka Overwatch). MMORPGs were popular back in the day because it was one of the few social experiences online. Now there are tons of online communities and the concept of an MMORPG (working towards a tough goal with a close group of friends) is outdated. Hence the simplification of even WoW (appealing to those wanting less hassle and to be able to accomplish things solo rather than with a dedicated group).

[sponge5307]

I try another game who basically remove healer spec. You get your heal back by certain abilities that crt and you get hp back. There are also no tanks so even as a range if you have enough aggro you are the tank.

Unique idea on paper but terrible in actual gameplay. Some melee class have tanking abilities and only works if they are being attack and dodge an attack. Class is also unbalance since as a range you have a ton of abilities to avoid attack from far away make melee class useless a lot of the times. The drops and items you use is also an issue. There are like no other stats other tank Attack power, crt, dodge ect ect. They don't use Int/Str. And in dungeons everyone is going after the same gear (expect weapons. So not a good desgin.

[ImpTaimer]

.hack already foretold the future.

Once VR becomes more consumer accessible we'll see more people have it.

At the moment mobile industry is crippling any chance VR has to kick traditional displays to the back burner.

As far as WoW, it only got worse after (and possibly during) 2009 with all the untalented assholes Blizzard hired after the Activision merger.

The only good part about Cata was the revamped zones that only new players got to experience.
The only good part about MoP was the setting. Contrary to "hardcore" whiners, the legendary cloak improved participation greatly.
The only good part about WoD was leveling 100-110 the first time. Legendary Ring just pissed people off thanks to being an un-fun PoS.
The only good part about Legion so far is... new content.

For 4 expansions now both PvE and PvP suffered because of the useless fucking assholes Blizzard hired while the real team worked on flopped projects because they failed to understand all their original talent came from polishing existing creations.

WoW doesn't need to evolve. It needs to fire people, and renew itself like Final Fantasy XIV did for Realm Reborn.

WoW also needs to stop letting addon/mod creators trivialize the game. No offense to MMOChamp and other websites, but banning datamining would also fix problems. Would put alot of people out of business though.

Also stop testing content on PTR. Only gameplay.

[Riistov]

And yet there's an almost 1500 page cryfest about going back in time..

MMO's are fine, you can't innovate much when they are the way they are for a reason.

I was actually just looking at that insane cluster of a thread. SO much salt.

[Deleted]

I try another game who basically remove healer spec. You get your heal back by certain abilities that crt and you get hp back. There are also no tanks so even as a range if you have enough aggro you are the tank.

Unique idea on paper but terrible in actual gameplay. Some melee class have tanking abilities and only works if they are being attack and dodge an attack. Class is also unbalance since as a range you have a ton of abilities to avoid attack from far away make melee class useless a lot of the times. The drops and items you use is also an issue. There are like no other stats other tank Attack power, crt, dodge ect ect. They don't use Int/Str. And in dungeons everyone is going after the same gear (expect weapons. So not a good desgin.

Have you tried Guild Wars 2?
It's exactly what you said

[InfiniteCharger]

The more I think about it the more I see WOW as nothing but the same WC III in a MMO. The main campaign was on rails in WC and it featured scenarios where you could help one or the other lore NPC with some task. But otherwise you were totally following the script provided by the devs. However, with the map editor came the type game that eventually became a MOBA, with the player controlled units and RTS style game play. It is this part of the WC game play that would be nice in the MMO. What you see in the most recent expansions is campaigns that follow the exact same formula as the WC campaigns, with dungeons, raids, PVP and loot thrown in as "end game". In WOD and now Legion you follow Khadgar through the campaign pretty much the same way you followed Arthas or Sylvanas in WC. In fact, now they are bringing back the concept of pylons, turrets and units as more prominent in the campaign for Suramar the way they were in WC, but of course not controlled by the players, except for the withered minions but those are only available in instances. But there was the other side of WC III where players had the ability to control everything and that was through the map editor/custom map option and the player vs player or player vs machine scenarios which eventually became the basis of the MOBA genre. It is this side of the WC universe that was never implemented in the MMO.

I can understand why some of that player controlled stuff was never implemented in WOW. You cant have every individual player have control of units in a non instanced zone. There has to be some mechanic for deciding when and where to create new outposts and it cant be like individual garrisons for each individual player. But there are some ways around it involving having your faction be able to progress the building of a zone using resources and artifacts acquired by the players and some of those resources and artifacts will be uniquer or controlled by other factions and therefore fought over in the world. So you can have the blueprints for creating said outposts, turrets, pylons (mystic wards, shields, mana fountains, healing wards, etc) but you need the players to gather the resources and artifacts to make them possible. And certain buildings in said outpost, city would allow you to craft things like siege engines based again on resources, artifacts and blueprints acquired by the players.... Again by fighting PVE or PVP to gain them but also defend them from attacks by other factions. Ie mines, lumberyards, farms, and so on... Then you could have a PVE strong hold with its own units, defenses and bosses but non instanced, meaning you could engage in epic combat to destroy it any time you were ready, which meant not until you had reached the appropriate amount of resources, units, power, artifacts, units, etc of your own. Otherwise, your faction gets wrecked (implying that troops, units, turrets and vehicles don't auto respawn, you lose it its gone). And enemies don't always wait for your faction to attack, sometimes they will attack on their own, in addition to other PVE elements spawning and attacking at random as well, along with the PVP possibilities. Lots to do, lots of action. Each server realm would unfold differently based on who discovered, acquired, unlocked what artifacts and traits, learned various blueprints, gained whatever legendary items and successfully defended/attacked key objectives, all within the same campaign but flowing at different paces based on the progression of the overall population on each server. And of course if players were slow on the draw their stuff could get wrecked.... Of course you could still have normal instanced dungeons and raids but that wouldn't be the exclusive content for endgame. The main difference here is that key campaign elements are no longer scripted, instanced and/or on rails as they are now. Of course you gain real world ranks, skills, arms, traits, talents, abilities, currencies and rep from success at all of these things. The fact is all of this stuff already established within the Warcraft franchise even if some of it never made it into the MMO. And that is not to mention the concept of infinite dungeons and loot aka Diablo style gameplay.... which is just now being implemented as Mythic+ dungeons.

Look at the following and you will see what i mean:

Warcraft III custom map:
youtube. com/watch?v=Ds5Z61JCXnc

Warcraft history:
youtube. com/watch?v=CtYMuTVqlxQ

Patch 7.1 suramar campaign (spoilers) with elements of the old game coming back to the MMO:
youtube. com/watch?v=pFHXRa4RrMs

[pmkaboo]

We already had games where player scaled back so mobs aren't becoming obsolete; we already had player governed games; we already had games with unique items being actually unique; its impossible to have a game with stats which aren't a number you try to get as high as possible; aaand the skill part is just absurd. Actually, you should try Minecraft, really. Strangely, it fits most of your desires - except for not being a MMORPG.

scaling is what you add to your existing game, what i have in mind is much more complex than tweaking hp and damage number (hint: imagine that you can level up by doing anything, questing, professions, dungeons, whatever, like gw2 for example, now, why does crafting necklaces suddenly make you an expert at killing wolves? any why only in some zones, while in other zones different coloured wolves are going to destroy you?).
since you arent complaining about the player governed world im pretty sure you are thinking too small and if by impossible/absurd you mean "i cant imagine how this could work", thats great because its exactly what the reaction should be when were talking about new stuff.

and ive just thought of another bullet point:
- dodge/block/crit not based on rng, this isnt a tabletop game and so we can do so much more than rolling a dice

[Mirishka]

Just try to innovate and revolutionize the genre already. We are all waiting for the next Steve Jobs of MMO's. Where is him?
Blizzard i'm looking at you. You have the obligation to be the hero. To step in and change everything because...you are the number 1 after all.
It may not be safe for business to try and change the genre but we are all waiting.

Blizzard already proved they are the best at polishing and delivering the best interface and presentation possible. Legion is the best looking expansion ever.
Class Halls, Artifacts, World Quests, everything is polished and new but is just an illusion of new gameplay.

Every other company just copies the already in place formula with a new setting/license and they are failling because of it.

We need you Blizzard to be the dreamer, break walls, blow the minds of the people with something new never before seen.
Free your mind from the notions, pillars, walls you have created. It was revolutionary before but it was 12 years ago!

I love you Blizzard for being the father of MMO's but you are getting old!
Get some rejuvenation potion or ask for a bit of whatever Gandalf is smoking in his pipe to come up with new ideas to change the genre entirely.

May the force be with you

Or maybe you're just tired of the game and need to play something else.

Also, Blizz isn't the father of the genre.

[Deleted]

Fevir is not really optimistic about evolution in MMO's. It doesn't seem like a possible thing in the near future
Only slight inovations

/cry

[Otimus]

All WoW did was take Everquest, and make it sectioned off and less punishing. A focused safe space MMO, or whatever. It wasn't innovative (but it was smart!). That's always what Blizzard does, they take something, copy it, and throw their "blizzard touch" on it.

Anyways, I wouldn't hope for much. The genre is basically dead, save for the base that already enjoys them. Almost every aspect of MMO's have been taken and ported to other, more popular genres now. MMO's, as a concept, were never meant to really have broad appeal. WoW is basically a fluke, and it's a fluke that got there by catering to people who shouldn't even be playing what MMORPG's exist as, and ask of people to begin with. (I count myself in that camp!)

Save for something like true immersive VR or whatever, I can't imagine that's ever going to change.

[Coombs]

I think the problem is Blizzard still has Everquest-minded devs who want to keep WoW gameplay in that era. I've wished many times over the years for WoW to become more 'modernized', but as long as you have devs with a 2004 mindset it's not likely to happen. I wouldn't expect much of any revolution unless more of them leave and/or they bring in fresh blood whose ideas they don't ignore.

LOL what are you talking about? WoW has selfies and all sorts of casual ideas. Did you even play Everquest?

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with MMOs today is they attempt to work on a free to play model. That might net you users but it isn't healthy for a game. Offer everything in the game and charge a monthly fee. If $15 a month is literally too much of your income, then you should be working on your life and not reading this forum. MMO's only offer two pieces of content, raiding and pvping. They come in different shapes and sizes but they are all the same things. The problem is that not everyone enjoys those aspects but in order to socialize on this game they have to give into these aspects.

Make other activities matter such as player driven content, cartography, merchants, farming, exploration. Everything is so streamlined and more of an amusement park that community has died. Imagine raiders get to kill bosses but they don't make shit for gold. All the wealth on a server is managed by a merchants guild that never fights once. That's dynamic and brings about community. Many different people play MMOs, allow many different people to play in different ways without watering down any of those paths i.e. LFR etc.

[Lochton]

Yes, MMO's need to evolve, but not move away from some of the main features..