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  1. #1181
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurasu View Post
    Eh, not really because in addition to what Jep said, you're also losing out on PTW or Grace as well. Shadow Covenant cannot compete with PW:R in any form.
    I personally value Grace and PtW higher than Shadow covenant. But it doesn't deny that there are cases where those are inferior. Given the persons above case:


    PW:R -> penance = 750 + 304*3 + 304 per person with atonement prior to starting this sequence
    3x Shadow Covenant = 4125 + 0 per person with atonement prior to starting this sequence

    Which means you need to have had 8.1 atonements already out for PW:R->Penance to heal more than 3x Shadow Covenant

  2. #1182
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyenmb View Post
    I personally value Grace and PtW higher than Shadow covenant. But it doesn't deny that there are cases where those are inferior. Given the persons above case:


    PW:R -> penance = 750 + 304*3 + 304 per person with atonement prior to starting this sequence
    3x Shadow Covenant = 4125 + 0 per person with atonement prior to starting this sequence

    Which means you need to have had 8.1 atonements already out for PW:R->Penance to heal more than 3x Shadow Covenant
    No, you didn't take into account the negative healing absorb from the first and second SC.

  3. #1183
    Quote Originally Posted by PeopleReady View Post
    No, you didn't take into account the negative healing absorb from the first and second SC.
    um yes i'm only counting half the heal

    Shadow Covenant effectively heals 1375% (550*5/2) per gcd. (let's just assume it's only half as effective as it states)

  4. #1184
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyenmb View Post
    um yes i'm only counting half the heal

    Shadow Covenant effectively heals 1375% (550*5/2) per gcd. (let's just assume it's only half as effective as it states)

    Ok you're right shadow convenient is great. Enjoy using it.

  5. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by PeopleReady View Post
    Ok you're right shadow convenient is great. Enjoy using it.
    I'm not trying to argue it's good. I'm trying to let people actually have the real facts, so a person can actually decide for themselves if it's good for them or not. And can have facts to back them up when they conclude it's bad for them in their circumstance.

    Suppose Shadow Covenant was given baseline, and you also have PW:R. Are you telling me there would be no situation where you would use it?
    Last edited by nguyenmb; 2016-10-05 at 10:50 PM.

  6. #1186
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyenmb View Post
    Suppose Shadow Covenant was given baseline, and you also have PW:R. Are you telling me there would be no situation where you would use it?
    The only situation where it would be useful, is if you knew that you could get 5 people to 100% and know that they won't take any damage for the next 6 seconds.

    The healing absorb on it is just completely cancer.

  7. #1187
    Does anyone have any correct Pawn strings they'd like to share for statweighs?

  8. #1188
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyenmb View Post
    I'm not trying to argue it's good. I'm trying to let people actually have the real facts, so a person can actually decide for themselves if it's good for them or not. And can have facts to back them up when they conclude it's bad for them in their circumstance.

    Suppose Shadow Covenant was given baseline, and you also have PW:R. Are you telling me there would be no situation where you would use it?
    So long as it has the healing absorb attached and does not apply atonement, there is no situation in which I would use shadow covenant.

  9. #1189
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    The only situation where it would be useful, is if you knew that you could get 5 people to 100% and know that they won't take any damage for the next 6 seconds.

    The healing absorb on it is just completely cancer.
    The healing absorb is not completely cancer, and all my above posts show that. In fact all my above posts directly cuts the healing calculations by half when talking about shadow covenant. Shadow covenant has more hps than smite with less than 12 atonements out. (techncially not exactly true, since I did not account for artifact traits). When i say more hps i mean half of the spells stated healing has more hps.

    So let's say only have 10 atonement out because you're in a 10 man raid, and you didn't need PW:R to get them all out. You mindbender, light's wrath, penance. Now you have a choice, do you smite or shadow covenant? well guess what, shadow covenant gives you more hps at this point. (again more hps when only counting half of the stated healing)

  10. #1190
    Talking about HPS and ignoring mana costs in Legion lol. Good joke.

  11. #1191
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Talking about HPS and ignoring mana costs in Legion lol. Good joke.
    I was very particular in never mentioning that shadow covenant is the better choice, but to better let others know that there exists cases where you can get more hps out of shadow covenant than pure atonement. Yes that option costs more mana, but that's part of the choice. Can you afford conserving mana and not going the higher hps route, or must you have the higher hps now?

    Everyone is in a different situation and circumstance, and it is up to each individual person to decide what is valuable in their particular case. I prefer to rely on facts when determining that.
    Last edited by nguyenmb; 2016-10-06 at 01:05 AM.

  12. #1192
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyenmb View Post
    I was very particular in never mentioning that shadow covenant is the better choice, but to better let others know that there exists cases where you can get more hps out of shadow covenant than pure atonement. Yes that option costs more mana, but that's part of the choice. Can you afford conserving mana and not going the higher hps route, or must you have the higher hps now?

    Everyone is in a different situation and circumstance, and it is up to each individual person to decide what is valuable in their particular case. I prefer to rely on facts when determining that.
    You know that's not how talents work, right? You don't get to change talents moment to moment in a fight. It doesn't matter if you can cherry pick some individual moment on some encounter in which you would have achieved slightly higher moment-to-moment HPS using Shadow Covenant, because your healing overall takes a nosedive by getting rid of one of the most efficient spells in the spellbook and replacing it with a spell that's less efficient than Shadow Mend.

    If you want to go ahead and decide that Shadow Covenant works in your "situation", go ahead and be a terrible Disc Priest, but please don't pretend like you're doing some kind of actual analysis here when you conveniently leave out any information that would immediately disprove your statements.
    Last edited by Totaltotemic; 2016-10-06 at 01:24 AM.

  13. #1193
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyenmb View Post
    well guess what, shadow covenant gives you more hps at this point.
    ONLY if you manage to top those 5 people off, and get lucky that none of them take damage in the next 6 seconds.

    Not sure why you keep ignoring the healing absorb. Yeah, you do a good bit of healing...but then absorb future healing not only from yourself, but other healers as well.

    And yeah, it kinda has a much higher mana cost than Smite, so...apples and oranges, there.

    If you're so confident that Shadow Covenant isn't terrible, go ahead and post some logs to prove it.

  14. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    You know that's not how talents work, right? You don't get to change talents moment to moment in a fight. It doesn't matter if you can cherry pick some individual moment on some encounter in which you would have achieved slightly higher moment-to-moment HPS using Shadow Covenant, because your healing overall takes a nosedive by getting rid of one of the most efficient spells in the spellbook and replacing it with a spell that's less efficient than Shadow Mend.

    If you want to go ahead and decide that Shadow Covenant works in your "situation", go ahead and be a terrible Disc Priest, but please don't pretend like you're doing some kind of actual analysis here when you conveniently leave out any information that would immediately disprove your statements.
    I don't think anyone who decides Shadow covenant works best in their situation and they happen to be in niche situation which supports that decision is a bad disc priest. I'm not going to blanket mark anyone who takes a talent without understanding why they needed to take that talent as bad.

    It is a false statement to say, "no matter the situation, selecting shadow covenant instead of Grace or PtW is unoptimal" We can debate how niche those cases may be. Part of analyzing is figuring out when something can be good. Just saying something is bad without really knowing when it can be good is not analyzing. I have no incorrect statements. Was i analyzing HPM? no. I was analyzing HPS. But yes, I shouldn't have left that out. I incorrectly was assuming that healers inherently know that more hps means more mana must be spent.

    And now it's buried, but what triggered me putting out numbers was someone asking for "has shadow covenant been proven to be bad?" I was attempting to do this, but you go ahead. show the numbers no matter who you are, no matter your raid composition or size, or mythic+ dungeon composition, shadow covenant is always the worse talent choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    ONLY if you manage to top those 5 people off, and get lucky that none of them take damage in the next 6 seconds.

    Not sure why you keep ignoring the healing absorb. Yeah, you do a good bit of healing...but then absorb future healing not only from yourself, but other healers as well.

    And yeah, it kinda has a much higher mana cost than Smite, so...apples and oranges, there.

    If you're so confident that Shadow Covenant isn't terrible, go ahead and post some logs to prove it.
    I'm not ignoring the healing absorb in my calculations. the spell heals for 550*5 = 2750. I instead assumed the spell healed half of that, which is 1375. because that's what effectively it does heal.
    Last edited by nguyenmb; 2016-10-06 at 01:57 AM.

  15. #1195
    Nah, I don't feel like teaching a class on exactly why Shadow Covenant is bad right now. Maybe I would take you seriously if you could actually prove that you've ever used the spell in a raid environment with any amount of success, but it's such a laughable idea to me and everyone else here (except Yunzi, but even when he's attempting to seem like a hipster he has still never used Shadow Covenant in a Legion raid, as I suspect you haven't either) that I really don't care.
    Last edited by Totaltotemic; 2016-10-06 at 02:02 AM.

  16. #1196
    Deleted
    Lets just suppose Shadow Covenant is effective, i dont totally agree with any of you two but just lets say it is effective...

    This would suppose a horrible and very very terrible playstyle, disc priest still "stealing" heals from other healers making them less effective and a one button playstyle in game. Well done blizz..

  17. #1197
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Nah, I don't feel like teaching a class on exactly why Shadow Covenant is bad right now. Maybe I would take you seriously if you could actually prove that you've ever used the spell in a raid environment with any amount of success, but it's such a laughable idea to me and everyone else here (except Yunzi, but even when he's attempting to seem like a hipster he has still never used Shadow Covenant in a Legion raid, as I suspect you haven't either) that I really don't care.
    The funny thing is i am proving it's bad "in general circumstances" which involves making sure the times when it is good is doesn't fall in those situations. For some reason, you think trying to understand when something can be good, is to help prove it's good in general. Have you ever been able to prove anything before?

  18. #1198
    So I've been stalking the mythic statistics on WL and today I saw that for mythic cenarius there's 2 parses for disc priests just smashing the crap out of the rest: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=100&boss=1877

    So disappoint to find out those parses must be on private
    Disc Priests: Just 2 mana trinkets away from becoming Withered

  19. #1199
    Quote Originally Posted by Atonement View Post
    So I've been stalking the mythic statistics on WL and today I saw that for mythic cenarius there's 2 parses for disc priests just smashing the crap out of the rest: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=100&boss=1877

    So disappoint to find out those parses must be on private
    That was @Sups.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nguyenmb View Post
    The funny thing is i am proving it's bad "in general circumstances" which involves making sure the times when it is good is doesn't fall in those situations.
    No? You have failed in all 10 of your posts to acknowledge that it is a talent, and that talents are selected per-encounter, not on a second to second basis. Nothing you have said at all even remotely reflects the fact that it is an encounter-wide decision, which is always bad due to being terrible HPM.

  20. #1200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atonement View Post
    So I've been stalking the mythic statistics on WL and today I saw that for mythic cenarius there's 2 parses for disc priests just smashing the crap out of the rest: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=100&boss=1877

    So disappoint to find out those parses must be on private
    Because the current mythic cenarius strat is keeping every rotten drake alive. As a disc priest you can just spam purge the wicked on every add for the majority of the encounter (I only stopped in p2 because I was out of range), and do insane hps. Obviously having a symbol/innervates helps a lot too, but that isn't the difference between 400k+ hps (what most top end disc's are doing atm w/o innervates), and 550k-600k.

    You can apply the same strategy to any encounter with adds that last a long time. Mythic Xavius p1/p3 has adds that stay up for a very long time, so it would be very optimal to just spam purge the wicked between your atonement applications.

    Other examples of bosses would be high botanist, or dragons of nightmare.
    Last edited by Supliftz; 2016-10-06 at 04:07 AM.

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