State of the class?

[Whitemist]

Interested in hearing how you guys like the state of the Rogue class atm. Started mythic last week 1/7, and swapping between sub(20 traits, 880 ilevel wep) and outlaw(21 traits, 886 ilevel wep). Sub feels somewhat interesting to play, but in general I find the class to be alot less fun than what I expected, and not very rewarding. It is possible that I am just growing bored of the game after 11 years of raiding, but I just want to hear what the general opinion is.

[Deleted]

Interested in hearing how you guys like the state of the Rogue class atm. Started mythic last week 1/7, and swapping between sub(20 traits, 880 ilevel wep) and outlaw(21 traits, 886 ilevel wep). Sub feels somewhat interesting to play, but in general I find the class to be alot less fun than what I expected, and not very rewarding. It is possible that I am just growing bored of the game after 11 years of raiding, but I just want to hear what the general opinion is.

Hey I'm in pretty much the exact same situation as you.. I think my main gripe is with outlaw though, when you do well it simply doesnt feel you did well, you just got lucky. I feel like you can do a perfect rotation and be in the bottom section of the meters with outlaw.

Im pushing for the akaari's soul trait before trying sub in raids.. but it seems to me atleast the rotation will be challenging (and obviously less rng than outlaw,.. I mean.. how could it not be less rng with saber slash n rtb being the way it is.).

After lvling a mage up to 110 I feel obliged to note here that I regret not swapping to (arcane) mage.. that spec seems fantastic, and I am quite jelly.

[Haaizor]

I've been switching around between outlaw and sub for heroic and mythic raids, outlaw is still the king of cleave no doubt about that, but even with only 20 points 871 ilvl as sub I do more single target as with that than I do with 892 weps and 21 points in outlaw. Thats not even taking the reliability of the single target DPS in account.

Sub is really good fun once you get used to the rotation (its the hardest of the three specs imo) it is alot of fun.

[Tzalix]

Hey I'm in pretty much the exact same situation as you.. I think my main gripe is with outlaw though, when you do well it simply doesnt feel you did well, you just got lucky. I feel like you can do a perfect rotation and be in the bottom section of the meters with outlaw.

Im pushing for the akaari's soul trait before trying sub in raids.. but it seems to me atleast the rotation will be challenging (and obviously less rng than outlaw,.. I mean.. how could it not be less rng with saber slash n rtb being the way it is.).

After lvling a mage up to 110 I feel obliged to note here that I regret not swapping to (arcane) mage.. that spec seems fantastic, and I am quite jelly.

Sub rotation seems daunting at first, but once you get into it, it's mainly about pooling energy for Shadow Dance. It definitely has a very different feel than Outlaw which great (button mashing vs pooling). Sadly Sub really doesn't perform well until you get pretty good gear, no matter how much you practice the rotation.

I agree with you on the Outlaw gripe. I would much prefer playing with Slice and Dice, wish they buffed it a little bit. Maybe not so much that it becomes the default choice, as it seems a lot of people are attached to the Roll the Bones playstyle, but at least so it doesn't feel like I'm wasting my guilds time by playing so sub-optimally by choosing Slice and Dice.

[Zempai]

Don't know where to start. It feels like we're back in WoD again, doing okay-ish damage with the combat-spec and everyone is waiting for their equip to play sub. Also it really bugs me, that you read all the hotfixes on other classes, but rogue is mentioned every tenth fix with somewhat strange spell changes - like rogues are fine we don't need to work on. Same goes for blue tweets.

Personally, I switched away from assa due heavy exsa-nerf. It was fun rocking the tops by pulling off a perfect opener but the spec and it's utility were kinda, meh, so I'm not even mighty mad about cus there is just nothing special about the spec. Since sub will scale better I'm currently pushing the artifact aswell, leaving my 21p outlaw where it is at the moment.

I totally get what OP is talking about when saying you get bored with, but it may now be a totally different focus than back in the time where you just played what you leveled with and you did just fine, cus there is just one other spec and the pvp-spec - nobody played the pvp-spec. It got alot easier to calculate and a much larger group of raiders is trying to play perfect numbers, that is what I feel like putting huge pressure on Blizz and results in what we are dealing with.

I actually never wanted to have all specs doing the same amount of damage on different situations, who takes a fork for eating soup? Blizz cut their own flesh by giving us artifacts and cockblocking easy switching - but in the same time everyone knows that there always will be AoE and ST specs. I want to master the class, not the spec. As there is a spec which is currently RNG as f*ck it doesn't matter because we are really doing fine at AoE. At some point we're all be switching specs per boss. And if you're having fun with ONLY one spec you maybe just playing the wrong class.

[Whitemist]

Thank you for your feedback guys, it sums up perfectly how I feel at the moment, especially the part about outlaw. Topping meter is all good and well, but the truth is you just got lucky. I should have stuck with outlaw until Blunderbuss, I am sure, but I just find it mindnumbing and frustrating. I grasp every chance I can to go into sub. No one knows how Blizzard will balance in the future, so just taking the leap and putting AP into that for now. I was looking forward to play assassination, but the way it scales now, I'd rather take my chances with sub.

I actually never wanted to have all specs doing the same amount of damage on different situations, who takes a fork for eating soup? Blizz cut their own flesh by giving us artifacts and cockblocking easy switching - but in the same time everyone knows that there always will be AoE and ST specs. I want to master the class, not the spec. As there is a spec which is currently RNG as f*ck it doesn't matter because we are really doing fine at AoE. At some point we're all be switching specs per boss. And if you're having fun with ONLY one spec you maybe just playing the wrong class.

I fully agree with this. Ofcourse, it has a bigger impact now that we don't just get weapon drops, smile and start playing the spec. I was surprised when Outlaw was the top ST spec, but it made things easier I guess. My problem isn't with switching specs, I am perfectly fine with that, but there is no denying that Outlaw is alot about luck.

[Dryzz]

i Really don't like Sub......there is really people that enjoiy pooling energy till shadodance ????

Outlaw was fun and rewarding before the nerf and if u can deal with RnG monster(or at last have some pirate flavour istead to be just a pooling machine)

Assasination have 4 keybind DPS rotation (if u play poison.mut,keep rup up ,keep garrote up,dump using env) good rewarding but poor mechanics.

So i feel there is no fun playing rogue in Legion,u play rogue in legion only if u like big numbers on DPS recount.

[Whitemist]

So i feel there is no fun playing rogue in Legion,u play rogue in legion only if u like big numbers on DPS recount.

Not sure what you compare to, but if you do big numbers on meter, it is because your fellow raiders simply play worse than you, sorry to say.

If you need proof: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10

[Coldkil]

I just started so i may be not really objective, but i'm having fun at the moment. World play is cool as always - need to start dungeons/raids and see how it goes.

Rogue works well and delivers. What is fun often is a too personal opinion.

[Faildevil]

Same for me. With Outlaw, I hate to reroll 5,6 times in a row (and yeah, I know the reroll rules).
Sub is...mhm. The spec feels very slow, especialy when you don't get energetic stabing procs. Cleave feels so...I don't know..wrong in a certain way. You do your ST rotation and just put your finisher on the second target and switch back. If there are more targets, you throw the still not satisfying shurikens and finish everything in range with nightblade.

[Haaizor]

i Really don't like Sub......there is really people that enjoiy pooling energy till shadodance ????

Sub offers way more than that: good dps, mobility, good burst and it involves alot of decision making, I think sub is great atm.

Assasination have 4 keybind DPS rotation (if u play poison.mut,keep rup up ,keep garrote up,dump using env) good rewarding but poor mechanics.

I count more than four buttons, you're exaggerating.

So i feel there is no fun playing rogue in Legion,u play rogue in legion only if u like big numbers on DPS recount.

Not true either, we're not topping meters.

I think you're full of shit.

[Whitemist]

I just started so i may be not really objective, but i'm having fun at the moment. World play is cool as always - need to start dungeons/raids and see how it goes.

Rogue works well and delivers. What is fun often is a too personal opinion.

I'm happy to hear you are having fun, by all means. However, world play with a new class will always be fun in my personal opinion. It's refreshing, and you never actually focus on a rotation.

[Coldkil]

I'm happy to hear you are having fun, by all means. However, world play with a new class will always be fun in my personal opinion. It's refreshing, and you never actually focus on a rotation.

Agree fully. I'm having a nice time with Legion, i hope it lasts like now and i'll be able to play without caruing about raids (mostly due to no time to do them - maybe normal farming or some stuff)

[Tripax]

Sub is...mhm. The spec feels very slow, especialy when you don't get energetic stabing procs. Cleave feels so...I don't know..wrong in a certain way. You do your ST rotation and just put your finisher on the second target and switch back. If there are more targets, you throw the still not satisfying shurikens and finish everything in range with nightblade.

Agreed.

I want to like subtlety since "it's supposed to be a great ST spec", but now it's just a pain in the ass and the results/effort -ratio is sooooo bad (both ST and AoE). DPS will get better with gear, but the rotation won't be any smoother. People sometimes whine how they simplified sub, but this version hurts my brain way more than the WoD version did, it's not hard, but it doesn't feel right.

[Faildevil]

The comparsion between rogues and also other DPS specs is screwed never the less. The mayority of the other DPS players in my raid allready have at least one legendary.
Sub with Shadow Satyr's Walk will play smooth af for example.

[Deleted]

Can't remember the last time I had this much diversity in my playstyle as a rogue. Don't think it's ever been like this tbh, been playing since Vanilla.

Like last nights raid, I did Cenarius (hc) as Assassination, swapped to try Subtlety on Xavius, then back to Assassination for Nyth (m) and Outlaw for the trash clearing. I also stick with Outlaw for m+ farming.

I'm giggling for myself at how much fun I'm having.

[Deleted]

I play mostly mythic + sometimes pug heroic, don't really have time to dwelve into Mythic raids so Outlaw is like blast. There is button mashin' there are decisions to be made utility is top par between reposte, feint, potion and hook I boy love the hook, but recently I also love for the mythic + of course the extra 3y range that is like awesome it even increases the radius of the Greed. No legendary yet so things can go even better. I tried assassination on the raids ofc with less points and not that good relics, it's good it gives time to follow other shit since not so many clicks. Sub feels just clunky atm, tried it a couple of times on normal bosses just doesn't slick atm, even though I have 3 relics that are giving Nightblade damage. For the AOE there isn't really any comparison Outlaw is king which is what matters to me.

For the class in general we have problems. I don't like many of the talents lack flavour for example compared to other dps specs/classes. I mean clunky Death from Above on all 3 specs and MfD while MfD is good it lacks identity I would like to see some of the PvP talents for example being reworked into PvE ones at least they contribute to the fantasy path that Blizzard is going with this expansion. Like Venom Rush is fine, and all and mandatory, but other 2 you can't pick them, SnD is just a thing of the past, no more Combat spec so it should have been reworked/removed into something else. We need better talents in our talent tree that is for sure.


Edit. As far as Outlaw is concerned there is also the Artifact Tree which needs a bit of boost, just the 2 golden dragon while imo when stacked can be useful they need a bit more power. As it is at the moment they contribute not that much compared to the others and we have some useless talents like the increase critical chance of the Pistol Shot amd Increase Damage to the BtE which are lackluster gently put. Maybe if they invent some crit mechanic mechanic for the Pistol Shot like the BtE for bonus damage it can make sense. They nerfed the only 2 good points Fatebringer and Fate Thrust, but they didn't boost any other which was bad move imo and not because of the nerf, but because that they didn't compensate anywhere else.

[Nythiz]

Can't remember the last time I had this much diversity in my playstyle as a rogue. Don't think it's ever been like this tbh, been playing since Vanilla.

Like last nights raid, I did Cenarius (hc) as Assassination, swapped to try Subtlety on Xavius, then back to Assassination for Nyth (m) and Outlaw for the trash clearing. I also stick with Outlaw for m+ farming.

I'm giggling for myself at how much fun I'm having.

I would really like this if it wasnt for the artifact weapons. It might not be a major issue after you obtained all 34 + 1 (first prestige trait is pretty big for dps) traits.
But until then, for the first time ever really, I feel like I'm more restricted on my 3 dps spec rogue than on e.g. my enh shaman as he really has to only keep one artifact in good condition.

Eventually having more options will again be a "pro". But until then it's not yet the selling point it has been in the past.

Other than that I only recently returned to rogue. So I cant quite tell if im happy with the state. But in my experience having more diverse specs is generally a good thing.
Ive played both hunter and rogue. And both suffered from a lot of overlap and homogenisation. Abilities had different names and cooldowns performed slightly different, but other than that they were very much alike.

So far i feel they approached rogue right.
Assassination got a bit more identity with its DoT focus.
Combat got some flavor poured over it; the gameplay was already solid, although im not a huge fan of the RNG and rerolling of RtB. Feels a bit cluncky.
Sub had its identity improved. More focus on the stealth and burst components and integrating that into the rotation.

Hunter was worse off. Instead of trying to enhance and spice up what was already there they went a bit overboard imo.

That said. Rogue doesnt look too bad so far. I do hope they will try to make all specs viable on all fronts now that spec switching has this extra hurdle in the artifact weapon.

[Deleted]

Not sure what you compare to, but if you do big numbers on meter, it is because your fellow raiders simply play worse than you, sorry to say.

If you need proof: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10

You might want to use heroic instead of mythic for that though. The parses on Il'gynoth, Cenarius and Xavius pretty much don't exist in mythic.

[Deleted]

I dont know, it feels bit ... weird.

Everything in the pre-patch and start of xpac was looking that Outlaw gonna be top spec, so invested 21 weapon levels to it. Then suddenly, Assa got buffs, Outlaw got nerfs and i also start to notice the great disparity in DPS and RNG of spec. So i pushed for Assassination, switched gear (22 level weapon atm). Playing Bleed Assa feels really strong, even AoE is not bad after FoK buff.

Then now, from what I see, I should prepare to gear up Sub as well, but that is another freaking leveling of weapon... again. I know, I have like level 10, which takes 3 WQs to get there with AK6, but still i am not sure if i can play Sub properly, and my gear is heavy crit oriented..