I dont see many survival hunters around

[Sturmbringe]

As a veteran Hunter (I have been playing Hunter since 2005) and a Survival Hunter in Vanilla who did mostly PvP, I think bringing back the Alternative Survival Spec from Vanilla is a very good idea.

However, the Devs did it wrong and created just a Half-Rogue. This is what a Survival Hunter is without his ranged abilities, a Half-Rogue. As players found out, this Half-Rogue spec is good for nothing.

Maybe they should rework the new Surv spec to conform to the Vanilla prototype, that is a mostly ranged spec with strong melee abilities and a lot of crit and dodge and entrapment.

My interest is purely academic as I do not play Retail, though I'd still like to see Vanilla Survival modified back. The "modified" part is meant for the removal of the deadzone, as Vanilla Hunters had a "deadzone".

[threads]

And before this expansion it was ranged sharpshooter, pet based, and dot/utility based. And that last one had huge room for improvement too.

survival was perfect in MoP, it could've just used a few unique talents. i actually couldnt believe how devs could fuck it up so badly going into WoD by basically just abandoning it during beta.

[Beet]

-snip-

Okay first off. The DPS Meter didn't kill the game. We've had damage meters since 2005. Second, I'd you played ret or port paladin in vanilla in a PVE setting then you were gimping the group.

Would the game be better off without meters? Definitely. Then we'd play what we wanted to play irregarsless of what's best. But meters can be a fun thing. I love them to keep me focused on doing my best possible damage. In raids however I tend to ignore them when first learning a fight because it can be a distraction.

Edit: As for survival. I've wanted to be able to have a melee spec ever since playing a Hunter in vanilla. I loved the idea of melee Hunter. I used to even duel friends with melee only using my zinrokh, it was good times. But I don't enjoy how survival plays right now. Mongoose Bite is weird and I don't like how it feels as if I mess up even once my entire damage for the fight is shot.

[Dadwen]

And I still firmly hold that BM and Surv played pretty much exactly the same due to their shot rotations sync'ing up almost perfectly :P.

As some one that played as both spec's since just about the start of the game till a few months after WOD launched, Ummm no and hell no.....

[Dracodraco]

As some one that played as both spec's since just about the start of the game till a few months after WOD launched, Ummm no and hell no.....

6 second main push button.
Same generator button.
~25 second "buff" button (Focus fire VS black arrow).
Same focus dump (Arcane shot), cost and all.

The only two distinctive differences the specs had was that BM used BW every minute, and Surv got a lock and load proc every 20 seconds. If that's enough to seperate them for you, that's fine by me; I couldn't really give less of a shit about how long you have played the specs, since the focus revamp both specs played almost exactly the same up untill Legion. Your experience from vanilla through WOTLK really isn't relevant to how the specs felt over the past four to five years :P.

[Dadwen]

6 second main push button.
Same generator button.
~25 second "buff" button (Focus fire VS black arrow).
Same focus dump (Arcane shot), cost and all.

The only two distinctive differences the specs had was that BM used BW every minute, and Surv got a lock and load proc every 20 seconds. If that's enough to seperate them for you, that's fine by me; I couldn't really give less of a shit about how long you have played the specs, since the focus revamp both specs played almost exactly the same up untill Legion. Your experience from vanilla through WOTLK really isn't relevant to how the specs felt over the past four to five years :P.

yes lets just allll forget with cata that BM damage was moving more to the pet for it with KC and their "pet mastery" in cata where the Suv was still focused on the weapon and elemental type damage at that time.

**not sure how someone can argue a spec base manly on Pet up-time\management and having them chew opponents faces off plays the same as a spec base on distance and slowing burning them down dotting\kitting, I can see where the MM plays close to SUV people are coming from at least (don't agree with them) but at least I don't think they are totally nuts.

and looking at the classes base rotation you could argue half the classes in the game are the same, Warrior smack something with object, allows it to smack some more... wow the Warrior DPS spec's must be too similar too......

[Deleted]

Hello peeps.

Been an on and off wow player since vanilla having properly raided in tbc during which time I mained a hunter. Having said that I've been leveling my third character for legion as a surv hunter, I have to say that changing hunter to surv even tho it isn't popular right now was a great idea.

Hunter as 2 ranged specs and 1 melee now, most people don't think of hunters as melee but actually if u check out primitive humans u actually see hunters with spears hunting mammoths and the like so fantasy wise its fine.

While I understand some people liked having 2 similar specs in the form of surv and marks honestly they weren't needed, we basically had two exact version of the same archetype where for the most part players played the version that gave more damage. They were both ranged specs that really didn't care about their pets and what changed for the most part was the rotations.

The change allowed blizzard to now focus on 3 different specs, 1 is a pet master the other is a more mobile caster and a 3rd which is a melee trapper, and while traps don't have the significance they once had, its good to see a refocus on them.

Just my 2 cents, thanks for reading.

[Sarevokcz]

6 second main push button.
Same generator button.
~25 second "buff" button (Focus fire VS black arrow).
Same focus dump (Arcane shot), cost and all.

The only two distinctive differences the specs had was that BM used BW every minute, and Surv got a lock and load proc every 20 seconds. If that's enough to seperate them for you, that's fine by me; I couldn't really give less of a shit about how long you have played the specs, since the focus revamp both specs played almost exactly the same up untill Legion. Your experience from vanilla through WOTLK really isn't relevant to how the specs felt over the past four to five years :P.

funny, I always liked SV playstyle, but couldnt get to like BM at all, if they played the same, it wouldnt matter, right? I guess the extra trap utility or DoT based aoe with more potential spread werent enough and I actually liked the arcane/cobra weaving during LnL, before they changed, how DoT damage rolled over when refreshed and SV was more dynamic, thanks to LnL, while BM was the one with steady rotation. But there is likely no convincing you, as apparently DoT and maintenance buff are pretty much the same thing if they have somewhat close refresh time...

[Dracodraco]

yes lets just allll forget with cata that BM damage was moving more to the pet for it with KC and their "pet mastery" in cata where the Suv was still focused on the weapon and elemental type damage at that time.

**not sure how someone can argue a spec base manly on Pet up-time\management and having them chew opponents faces off plays the same as a spec base on distance and slowing burning them down dotting\kitting, I can see where the MM plays close to SUV people are coming from at least (don't agree with them) but at least I don't think they are totally nuts.

and looking at the classes base rotation you could argue half the classes in the game are the same, Warrior smack something with object, allows it to smack some more... wow the Warrior DPS spec's must be too similar too......

The fact that you think you're managing the pet is cute. Your pet is a big, clunky DoT. You stick it on a target and that target takes passive damage from the pets attack no matter what your input is (except for "remove dot"/put pet on passive).

In essence, as we ended up concluding in the previous discussion I had about this:

You're describing spec fantasy. Things like using dots or a pet to deal damage is qualities that goes under "class/spec fantasy", because ultimately, the delivery method doesn't matter in difference of playstyle; The different feel of the rotation does.

I'm describing spec mechanics. It doesn't matter if the damage is dealt over 3, 6 or even 24 seconds to me - if you're pressing the button once every 24 seconds, it's going to be an entirely similiar feel to play the spec as ANOTHER spec, that has an instant-damage button with a 24 second CD. The difference is spec fantasy, which, sorry to say, can never make your playstyle feel different. Mechanics can.

funny, I always liked SV playstyle, but couldnt get to like BM at all, if they played the same, it wouldnt matter, right? I guess the extra trap utility or DoT based aoe with more potential spread werent enough and I actually liked the arcane/cobra weaving during LnL, before they changed, how DoT damage rolled over when refreshed and SV was more dynamic, thanks to LnL, while BM was the one with steady rotation. But there is likely no convincing you, as apparently DoT and maintenance buff are pretty much the same thing if they have somewhat close refresh time...

Playstyles were much the same. What trap utility did survival have that BM didn't? Are you talking about triggering an instant-LnL by trying to CC a mob...? That's literally all I can think of, because as you'll recall, all hunters had access to all traps back then.

As for LnL/Arcane weaving, IIRC it was actually found out that it was a DPS loss to weave arcanes compared to just waiting .2 seconds before firing off the second LnL shot. As for AOE, you had no spread AOE as surv. Your Multishot hit the same radius as BM's multishot/beast cleave. You could roll serpent stings on multiple targets if you really wanted to by arcane shotting each one individually, but the gain from it was absolutely miniscule.

But yea, if I click the button once every 25 seconds that's the same mechanic to me. Doesn't matter if it's a dot or a self buff, I click button every 25 seconds, damage results. I delay the click, I lose damage.

(Also you guys seem to think that specs are very "different" - this is probably why some of us do well on the vast majority of characters we play; We don't see individual attacks, and we certainly don't have to keep track of it all and learn it from scratch. Button #1 takes priority over #2, hit them on CD, hit #3 when it lights up, use button #4 as filler. That pretty much describes the base priority of almost every spec in the game, with minor variance like "don't hit #2 if you still have buff/debuff X up", or "#1 can proc a free hit, click when it lights up").

[Korgen]

Hunter as 2 ranged specs and 1 melee now, most people don't think of hunters as melee but actually if u check out primitive humans u actually see hunters with spears, grenades, and sticky bombs hunting mammoths and the like so fantasy wise its fine..

Fixed.....

[Deleted]

But yea, if I click the button once every 25 seconds that's the same mechanic to me. Doesn't matter if it's a dot or a self buff, I click button every 25 seconds, damage results

so basically you're circumventing your opinion around bullcrap and circlejerking others'. you're the very definition of a ​huntard.

[Deleted]

so basically you're circumventing your opinion around bullcrap and circlejerking others'. you're the very definition of a ​huntard.

Uhm he is right. Why reducing his well written arguments to this one quote and getting personal?

[Threndsa]

With a few tweaks it could be fine in raids. Make the mastery not useless by changing it to all damage sources or massively increasing the % for pet attacks, plus the damage buff for FotE listed in PTR would bring it up to a decent level. Probably on par with BM for single target. I'd never go to a M+ or AoE heavy fight as SV without some major reworks though. AoE skills being part of the ST rotation with long CDs just doesn't work.

Honestly the biggest detriment for me ever trying SV is the current stat weights. Im not farming a second set of gear for my 3rd spec and their stat weights are opposite BM/MM.

[Deleted]

Uhm he is right. Why reducing his well written arguments to this one quote and getting personal?

he thinks he is right. besides, its not even about right or wrong. i am tired of hearing argumentative bullshit wrapped as fact presented by people who clearly only state an opinion, which is by definition subjective. BM and Survival had a very different play-style, with different priority system and spells. This became even more clear in PVP situation. The dev team listened and catered to the very player base, who actually had no clue how a "hunter" should be played or how the class should "look" like.

[melzas]

Survival change is fantastic and I'm enjoying hunter a lot more now thanks to it.
Survival and Marksman were so similar before, that there wasn't really any theme difference between them, you just had 2 ranged archer specs and picked whichever was actually pulling more dps. I hardly ever remember any hunter that would stick to MM or Surv because they liked it, everyone would just play whatever was ahead in sims anyway.

You can argue all you want that old Survival was cool and shit, but in the end it was pretty much same stuff you had on marksman with different icons for spells and slightly different rotation. Playstyle was so close there was hardly any reason to prefer one spec over the other for other reasons than higher dps.

Now Survival is an interesting choice, I love it's theme and playstyle and am glad they made the change.

[Deleted]

Honestly think blizzard needs to go in a different direction if there needs to be a third hunter spec.

Could be a dark ranger.

Could be a Kiba(from naruto) form of tank with beast

Could be a ranged tank spec

Cant be a melee dps spec. Thats just not why people roll hunter. Especially considdering the other two specs are usually some of the best pve specs around

[Cryocryp]

I have faith that Blizz will fix SV hunters pretty soon! The spec is pretty darn fun imo. You cant be a huntard and play it though. It isnt the usual 3 button rotation, ya dig!

[OcciferGlass]

Survival change is fantastic and I'm enjoying hunter a lot more now thanks to it.
Survival and Marksman were so similar before, that there wasn't really any theme difference between them, you just had 2 ranged archer specs and picked whichever was actually pulling more dps. I hardly ever remember any hunter that would stick to MM or Surv because they liked it, everyone would just play whatever was ahead in sims anyway.

You can argue all you want that old Survival was cool and shit, but in the end it was pretty much same stuff you had on marksman with different icons for spells and slightly different rotation. Playstyle was so close there was hardly any reason to prefer one spec over the other for other reasons than higher dps.

Now Survival is an interesting choice, I love it's theme and playstyle and am glad they made the change.

I couldn't agree more. Now we have some variety! Want to be a ranged sharpshooter and stick with the OG theme of a hunter? MM it is! Heavy pet-based master? BM it up. A tactical melee user utilizing traps, poisons and grenades? SV is your calling!

The changes have made the class as a whole MUCH more interesting now that there is clear distinction between all the specs. People complaining that they only roll a hunter to be ranged... well, considering the class has two other ranged specs (which both being competitive in raiding/mythic+ enviroments) you can! Also, Surv IS competitive with other melee classes, despite the circlejerk that it's useless from people not providing full context (It's just that EN was pretty much made for MM hunter galore and Surv has a higher learning curve in order to compete, so naturally MM will be more popular).

Not to say that each spec is perfect play style-wise (which is clearly subjective anyways) but rather they are more interesting and there is clearer distinction between them thematically now. Give it some time -aka buffs and class-tuning- and Surv will pick up more popularity.

[Dadwen]

The fact that you think you're managing the pet is cute. Your pet is a big, clunky DoT. You stick it on a target and that target takes passive damage from the pets attack no matter what your input is (except for "remove dot"/put pet on passive).

In essence, as we ended up concluding in the previous discussion I had about this:

You're describing spec fantasy. Things like using dots or a pet to deal damage is qualities that goes under "class/spec fantasy", because ultimately, the delivery method doesn't matter in difference of playstyle; The different feel of the rotation does.

I'm describing spec mechanics. It doesn't matter if the damage is dealt over 3, 6 or even 24 seconds to me - if you're pressing the button once every 24 seconds, it's going to be an entirely similiar feel to play the spec as ANOTHER spec, that has an instant-damage button with a 24 second CD. The difference is spec fantasy, which, sorry to say, can never make your playstyle feel different. Mechanics can.





Playstyles were much the same. What trap utility did survival have that BM didn't? Are you talking about triggering an instant-LnL by trying to CC a mob...? That's literally all I can think of, because as you'll recall, all hunters had access to all traps back then.

As for LnL/Arcane weaving, IIRC it was actually found out that it was a DPS loss to weave arcanes compared to just waiting .2 seconds before firing off the second LnL shot. As for AOE, you had no spread AOE as surv. Your Multishot hit the same radius as BM's multishot/beast cleave. You could roll serpent stings on multiple targets if you really wanted to by arcane shotting each one individually, but the gain from it was absolutely miniscule.

But yea, if I click the button once every 25 seconds that's the same mechanic to me. Doesn't matter if it's a dot or a self buff, I click button every 25 seconds, damage results. I delay the click, I lose damage.

(Also you guys seem to think that specs are very "different" - this is probably why some of us do well on the vast majority of characters we play; We don't see individual attacks, and we certainly don't have to keep track of it all and learn it from scratch. Button #1 takes priority over #2, hit them on CD, hit #3 when it lights up, use button #4 as filler. That pretty much describes the base priority of almost every spec in the game, with minor variance like "don't hit #2 if you still have buff/debuff X up", or "#1 can proc a free hit, click when it lights up").

oh god if a mage happens to push a button at the same time a hunter or lock would they must be the same................... better delete them too....

and till LW MM had the pet dot too but you didn't have to worry about keeping them on it for their main KC to hit derp....

- - - Updated - - -

Uhm he is right. Why reducing his well written arguments to this one quote and getting personal?

umm no he's not it's a bunch of BS.

[lmaoboat]

Honestly think blizzard needs to go in a different direction if there needs to be a third hunter spec.

Could be a dark ranger.

Could be a Kiba(from naruto) form of tank with beast

Could be a ranged tank spec

Cant be a melee dps spec. Thats just not why people roll hunter. Especially considdering the other two specs are usually some of the best pve specs around

I could think at least four unique ranged hunter fantasies we could have had before Blizzard would have start padding out the class from the surplus melee box.