Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Snorlaxi]

What are you guys using for Neck Enchant?

I read everywhere that you should go with Claw (including mr.robot sims), however most of the Rogues with top parses on wowlogs are using Hidden Satyr. What's up with that?

[lolpve]

What are you guys using for Neck Enchant?

I read everywhere that you should go with Claw (including mr.robot sims), however most of the Rogues with top parses on wowlogs are using Hidden Satyr. What's up with that?

Hidden Satyr is usually well above 2% damage for me, I can't see how the modest stat boost from claw would contribute as much. I suspect claw will overtake it in much higher gear levels.

[Coldkil]

Hmm, as i was browsing warcraftlogs, i noticed that top sub rogue, and many others are using weaponmaster instead master of subtletly... so i decided to sim it for my own char to check it out.
Turns out it sims 2k dps higher than master of subtlety and has another nice sideeffect, lowers waiting time by 2.5% on my char!
If it procs, you get 4 CPs from shadowstrike etc... so we end up with more CP, more finishers, more dance uptime, smoother sailing.

So im just wondering if others noticed the same? I see guide still shows MoS clear winner... tho wasnt updated since 26th!
I know im sticking with it as it helps with CP generation and downtime as well as a bit more dmg...

Yeah, i've taken it for leveling and even in short fight the pace change is noticeable. Glad that i can keep it.

[Deleted]

Hey y'all. I was interested in some feedback as to where to spend my next AP. My current tree looks like this;

http://www.wowhead.com/artifact-calc...NeATYAE2IBVFAQ

I mostly play mythics+, which means AoE means a great deal to me. I have the following options atm:

1. Second Shuriken
2. 3 points in Precision Strike
3. 3 points in Soul Shadows to reach Shadow Nova with the 4th point

I do raid as well, but I feel very torn between investing in single-target (precision strike) or AoE at this point, and if the case is AoE, option 1 or option 3? >_<

Thanks for any input here, enjoying sub a lot thus far

[Deleted]

If I had to choose I would go for 3 relics for nightblade and perhaps Shadow Nova as AOE is important in Mythic+. I'ved tried the second shuriken but it's not accounting for a lot. Precision Strike is also good investment 'cause either way you aren't the main damage dealer of AOE in your group so you might as well focus on bursting down priority targets or just ST damage.

[Nihei]

Hey folks, I posted this question in the "4 Shadowstrikes in one SD" thread but perhaps it is better to ask here.
When do you refresh SoD in the sub rotation? I'm aware you can use Vanish to do it but I think you need to also cast SoD in SD to keep it always up.
My issue is that when I refresh SoD with DS talented I can't land 4 SS in one SD.

[Deleted]

Hey folks, I posted this question in the "4 Shadowstrikes in one SD" thread but perhaps it is better to ask here.
When do you refresh SoD in the sub rotation? I'm aware you can use Vanish to do it but I think you need to also cast SoD in SD to keep it always up.
My issue is that when I refresh SoD with DS talented I can't land 4 SS in one SD.

Enter Shadowdance with 1 CP and 70 Energy, then:

Shadowstrike
Shadowstrike
Eviscerate or Nightblade
Symbols of Death
Shadowstrike

Your last Shadowstrike will do double damage because of Death buff.


I dont thnink you can refresh SoD and do 4 Shadowstrikes in one Dance. I believe you can either do 3x SS and SoD or 4x SS.

[FenrizZJ]

Hey y'all. I was interested in some feedback as to where to spend my next AP. My current tree looks like this;

http://www.wowhead.com/artifact-calc...NeATYAE2IBVFAQ

I mostly play mythics+, which means AoE means a great deal to me. I have the following options atm:

1. Second Shuriken
2. 3 points in Precision Strike
3. 3 points in Soul Shadows to reach Shadow Nova with the 4th point

I do raid as well, but I feel very torn between investing in single-target (precision strike) or AoE at this point, and if the case is AoE, option 1 or option 3? >_<

Thanks for any input here, enjoying sub a lot thus far

if you are mostly doing m+ then second shuriken is great. but not having precision strikes seems bad to me.

[Felarion]

I think it's possible assuming you'll get a little bit lucky with energetic stabbing.

[shaunika123]

Hey folks, I posted this question in the "4 Shadowstrikes in one SD" thread but perhaps it is better to ask here.
When do you refresh SoD in the sub rotation? I'm aware you can use Vanish to do it but I think you need to also cast SoD in SD to keep it always up.
My issue is that when I refresh SoD with DS talented I can't land 4 SS in one SD.

your options are:
1. forego 1 SS but one of them is guaranteed to crit anyway
2. use your artifact ability which will basically supplement the energy cost
3. pray really hard that you get multiple ES procs
4. use sprint for it

[Snorlaxi]

Hidden Satyr is usually well above 2% damage for me, I can't see how the modest stat boost from claw would contribute as much. I suspect claw will overtake it in much higher gear levels.

That's weird, Mr.Robot is placing Claw way above Satyr every single time I sim it. Not to mention sites like Icy Veins also tell you to go Claw.

I'm starting to have second thoughts if I should really trust Mr.Robot or not.

[Unspunreality]

So I love sub rogue and I just hit 110. I know Im sub optimal for it but is using icy veins guide for stat priorities correct? Vers > Mastery > crit > haste? While Im gearing up I wanna start aiming towards what I should need but I know a few times icy veins is wrong.

[classic username]

Do we want to refresh Nightblade before entering Dance ? or does it not matter ?

[Tripax]

So I love sub rogue and I just hit 110. I know Im sub optimal for it but is using icy veins guide for stat priorities correct? Vers > Mastery > crit > haste? While Im gearing up I wanna start aiming towards what I should need but I know a few times icy veins is wrong.

You'll have to simcraft your char if you want to know the exact results. For me it has usually been: mastery > versa > crit. Versa and crit have been switching positions every now and then, especially if my crit drops really low it becomes more valuable than versa, i'm not sure what's the "breakpoint".

[Deleted]

Do we want to refresh Nightblade before entering Dance ? or does it not matter ?

IIRC, Nightblade cost 25 energy and the energy gain of relentess strike is 40 energy. You should refresh Nightblade outside ShadowDance if:

• You have 5-6 combo points
• Your energy is lower than 70
• Nightblade duration is 5 seconds or less

TL/DR = It depends.

[Deleted]

Does anyone have a video of a good sub rogue in action on any of the current tier bosses? I am curios to see and compare playstyles. Maybe a good streamer too? I assume most people play assa/outlaw right now so I struggle to find anything good.

[Semune]

So I love sub rogue and I just hit 110. I know Im sub optimal for it but is using icy veins guide for stat priorities correct? Vers > Mastery > crit > haste? While Im gearing up I wanna start aiming towards what I should need but I know a few times icy veins is wrong.

Absolutely get simcraft. My mastery and versatility often switch places, while the poster below you said that his versatility and crit switches places.

Therefore, no one can give you an answer except simming your character.

[shaunika123]

i'd really like to know more elaborate details on why weaponmaster is better than MoS

weaponmaster is about 2% of your total dmg
which means if MoS is only up about 20% of the time it's already even in raw damage(even more since most of your damage is done DURING MoS anyway)
and in reality it's up way more than that (at least 40-50% of the time)

i know that when an ability procs it essentially duplicates the spell so you get the extra cp/energy/SD reduction/whatever


but a lot of the time the extra cp/energy could be wasted at least in part (SS on 4 cp it procs rip 2 CP, evis on 60 energy rip 40energy, or if it procs off of deeper another time then rip even more energy)
if it procs the same time as ST then again rip CPs.
and as for the extra SD reduction, based on the sims you cast 80 eviscerates in a simmed fight which translates to ~5 extra evises that's basically a little more than 1 extra SD in a 6 minute fight isnt doing an extra ~8% dmg during dance more effecive?

it just seems like the sims are looking at an ideal situation, that does not necessarily translate well into real environments, MOS seems more reliable and managable and not random.

im not debating whether it's better or not, i'd just like to know a more elaborate explanation

[CasualNoob]

weaponmaster is about 2% of your total dmg

I assume that 2% is just weaponmaster procs from nightblade alone. At quick glance weaponmaster should be equal to around 5% total damage before extra cp/energy/SD reduction/whatever.

[Deleted]

i'd really like to know more elaborate details on why weaponmaster is better than MoS

weaponmaster is about 2% of your total dmg
which means if MoS is only up about 20% of the time it's already even in raw damage(even more since most of your damage is done DURING MoS anyway)
and in reality it's up way more than that (at least 40-50% of the time)

i know that when an ability procs it essentially duplicates the spell so you get the extra cp/energy/SD reduction/whatever


but a lot of the time the extra cp/energy could be wasted at least in part (SS on 4 cp it procs rip 2 CP, evis on 60 energy rip 40energy, or if it procs off of deeper another time then rip even more energy)
if it procs the same time as ST then again rip CPs.
and as for the extra SD reduction, based on the sims you cast 80 eviscerates in a simmed fight which translates to ~5 extra evises that's basically a little more than 1 extra SD in a 6 minute fight isnt doing an extra ~8% dmg during dance more effecive?

it just seems like the sims are looking at an ideal situation, that does not necessarily translate well into real environments, MOS seems more reliable and managable and not random.

im not debating whether it's better or not, i'd just like to know a more elaborate explanation

the 1.5-2% "weaponsmaster" damage that you see in sims/skada is the bonus ticks from Nightblade alone. Any other procs from abilities are not shown separately, e.g. if your Eviscerate procs, it will register as 2 Eviscerate hits.

also a few weeks back someone was asking why his Goremaw's Bite was hitting for millions every now and then, and the answer is it's buggy with Weaponmaster -
so report it as a bug as it's retarded, it happens in arenas and in raids and is logged:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...83&view=events