PVP - New Gear Reward System is FLAWED

[xhisors]

Gear rewards are RNG in PvE as well, what the fuck is your point? If half your gear is 870 how does a PvE'er have 50 ilvls on you per your own dumb as fuck example? Stop trying.

I mean, the box was bugged the first week with 840 pieces regardless of rating. The second week you get two(if you are high rated in both 2s and 3s) pieces of gear. If you tried to gear through arena only. it would take a minimum of 9 weeks with perfect RNG to get all the gear to be ~865 or higher. Also you need 2500+ to get 870+ ilvl gear, which is the top 75 ranked people. Tell me again how we can gear through arena? Also PvE players are already over 870 ilvl just by doing mythic+ dungeons. I don't think there is a single player in the top 75 who hasn't done pve to get the max ilvl to get the most stats possible. Also I don't know if its possible, but I don't believe legendary items drop from PvP boxes.

So many PvE players think the system is just fine because it doesn't effect them. What if all the PvE players had to PvP to get the BiS gear for what they do? The pretty much stormed blizz HQ with pitchforks and torches when they had to do 3 random battlegrounds for a legendary. Why can't PvP players have a similar character gearing progression system in place thats as efficient as PvE players? We would like to have character progression through PvP, not killing dragons.

[Dragoncurry]

WTF are you smoking!!! PVP is about getting rewarding for melting people's faces and the time investment it takes to do so. If I have been struggling to get an item or want to quickly gear up an alt. I would run them through a PVP grind fest and quickly be relevant gear wise. People don't want to spend hours in PVP, Queuing up with strangers for 10-50 games, to walk away with a shit rating! shit gear! while I could have used that time to farm WQ' for AP, easily flying over to the Withered J'im cave, hang out side wait until he is almost dead - jump in at 1-2% tag him and walk away with 860 loot, which I did yesterday and got the head piece. So for 5 minutes of work I get an 860 piece, for 10 hours of PVP, I got a lot of stress, no gear and a huge waste of my time. NO INTEREST IN PVP ANYMORE. Not until they bring my vendors back. Remove RNG from PVP rewards - the AP and consumables they can keep around, but remove GEAR, unless they want to allow it as a bonus reward and still let us spend currency items from a PVP vendor. For PVP, I finding it a lot of fun, to kill anyone I want around water, since I can kite all day long as a BM hunter with my artifact fishing pole perks. Nobody can catch me and my pets will eat you alive!

Very happy that I disagree with you about what PvP is about.

[Vanson]

2,2+ is top ~30% which by definition makes it already a minority, how many people do you intend to exclude in this discussion? Stat differences matter at higher rating more because the skillgap is smaller between players. It's easy to win against a shitter with bad gear but you will more likely lose to someone who is close to yourself when he outgears you and the RNG gearing means that sitting at high rating is useless when you get 3x an artifact upgrade you don't even need.

Lol, did you just pull that number out of nowhere? So there is currently right at this moment 429 TOTAL players 2.2k and above on US realms, and you mean to tell me that 429 players account for the top 30% of all 3v3 arena players? Lol, the pecentage is much much lower than that.

[Glorious Leader]

They dont want pve players using casual pvp as a means of bypassing the pve rat race. Take from peter to pay paul *shrug*
Every decision they make seems to fuck some group of players over
- - - Updated - - -

Very happy that I disagree with you about what PvP is about.

Hes not wrong though. The changes will make pvp gearing much less popular.

[Deleted]

Lol, did you just pull that number out of nowhere? So there is currently right at this moment 429 TOTAL players 2.2k and above on US realms, and you mean to tell me that 429 players account for the top 30% of all 3v3 arena players? Lol, the pecentage is much much lower than that.

Just went by previous addons, of course currently it's less as we just started but give it ~2months and we should be much closer again with more people joining into that group.

[Dragoncurry]

Hes not wrong though. The changes will make pvp gearing much less popular.

I don't think you understand the atrociousness of gear mattering in PvP. Why should anyone be gearing in PvP? It's a format where balance is front and center the most important discussion. The fun of it comes from outplaying, outskilling, and outmaneuvering your opponent.

If it makes it less popular, then guess what? It means that people were using PvP to gear or "melt noob faces" in a way that doesn't make it any better for the game in terms of balance, or fun for other players. You think it's fun being useless until you grinded 2 weeks of honor to get full honor/conq gear? Then being useless until you grinded 3-5 months of arena until you were back at the level the players before you were?

If you are a true PvPer, and you play a variety of classes, specs, and combos, how is gearing all of these out any fun at all instead of the current system where you can play any spec, and any class and still be within 5% of your opponent?

People say that top PvErs are 5% stronger than most people who arena. First of all, top PvE players are like the minority of the minority. Second, you really think a top PvE player can beat a team like Snutz/Cdew/Smexxin or Bajheera & Friends, even if they are 5% stronger? Please man.

There are other things to cry about now that Feral druids can't global half the classes than "I miss grinding Ashran for PvP Accolades and being farmed in BGs for 2 months on 5 characters".

[Xuvial]

Keep in mind that doing heroics and mythics is easy as it can get, just faceroll aoe them down, so why doesn't PvP reward you with anything significant?

Because it's PvP. Gear hardly matters.

I honestly don't get this kind of complaint. You want higher ilvl gear out of PvP, despite gear not mattering in PvP. What...?

Hes not wrong though. The changes will make pvp gearing much less popular.

"PvP gearing" - what even is that? There is no such thing as PvP gearing.

This pretty much sums it up:

for 10 hours of PVP, I got a lot of stress, no gear and a huge waste of my time. NO INTEREST IN PVP ANYMORE.

Why the hell would someone PvP if they don't enjoy PvP? He wants gear rewards out of PvP...but why?? Gear is irrelevant.

This makes absolutely no sense.

The reason gear progression exists in PvE is because dungeons get more and more difficult as time progresses. But in PvP players won't be getting stronger, they'll always remain roughly within 5% of where they are now. So it makes NO sense to ask for gear rewards in PvP.

Whoever does PvP for gear despite not enjoying it is just a very lost/confused person.


I say this as someone with 100k+ honor kills. If you don't enjoy the act of PvP itself, it means PvP isn't for you. You should NOT need gear incentives just to give you a reason to PvP, especially when gear no longer matters.

[Deleted]

I don't know, I like the 875 gear I'm getting from 2200.

[SirreASDF]

The reason gear progression exists in PvE is because dungeons get more and more difficult as time progresses. But in PvP players won't be getting stronger, they'll always remain roughly within 5% of where they are now. So it makes NO sense to ask for gear rewards in PvP.

I agree with most points you're making, however, the above quote is a contradiction.. First you say that they PvPers wont be getting stronger, then you backtrack and say that they can infact increase the power from gear, however little. Instead of making gear "matter a little bit" which is so annoyingly retarded, they should've made gear have NO impact at all.

There will always be an issue in the community as long as someone can get a theoretical 1% advantage over another player due to ingame mechanics. It's not about actually believing that the percentage will actually matter (even though it theoretically could), it's about min-maxing, which EVERY serious PvE:er should understand.. I mean, buff food requirements for like 150 haste rating or whatever, c'mon...

Min-maxing is misunderstood by many casuals.. When I used to do hardcore PvE back in vanilla through cataclysm, I enjoyed making my character as good as possible (the min maxing aspect). I could regem my entire gear to get 4 more agility and sitll retain my metagem in TBC, I always brought buff foods and agi pots, flasks if they were the best, otherwise elixirs etc etc.. Making your character as ready as possible for the coming trial, be it PvE or PvP.

The above have always been the same for PvP as well. You farmed your gear from PvP, then you could reforge your gear for different stats, you could gem it different ways, you had enchants etc etc.

Todays system, in order to reach the same level of "ready" as in my last paragraph, you have to spend more time doing PvE, which leaves less time for PvP.. meaning to get my character as strong as possible (YES, STILL ONLY A FEW PERCENT, but if you're still stuck on that, you missed my point completely, so don't bother replying on that) I have to use my very limited time doing PvE instead of what I actually want to do in the game.

The above is my view at least... Feel free to give me an argument as to why I'm a stupid asshat.

Best Regards

[Deleted]

isnt the season just on its third week? and wanting to gear faster then pve players from doing pvp? come back after the season is ended and tell me if you didnt get full gear by then and if you didnt recieve high enough ilvl gear then i suspect your rating isnt good enough for those rewards.

[SirreASDF]

isnt the season just on its third week? and wanting to gear faster then pve players from doing pvp? come back after the season is ended and tell me if you didnt get full gear by then and if you didnt recieve high enough ilvl gear then i suspect your rating isnt good enough for those rewards.

You are pinpointing (albeit missing the entire point) of what most people seem to complain about.

They don't want to gear FASTER than PvE:ers, they want to be able to gear in the SAME RATE as PvE:ers, so that they don't feel like they HAVE to run mythic+ dungeons and/or raids.

Regarding your other point of not having a good enough rating, that is another issue.. Climbing the rating ladder is way harder than doing PvE.. Now this will sound like your average PvP:er saying something like "lol pve scripted bosses aren't hard", which is true in a sense. Sure it may be hard, but not in the same way as PvP. PvE IS trial and error, if you wipe on the same boss enough times you will eventually learn how to kill it (And lately there hasn't really been any exessive wiping in PvE).. When was the last boss in PvE that required over 200 tries to down? Not up to date on recent PvE, I could be wrong here, but it feels like several expansions ago.

Meanwhile, looking at the arena ladder, it is ever increasing, since you're facing opponents who also become better.. That aspect is very static in PvE.

I think that is what bothers people.. Could be wrong though..

Peace

[Deleted]

You are pinpointing (albeit missing the entire point) of what most people seem to complain about.

They don't want to gear FASTER than PvE:ers, they want to be able to gear in the SAME RATE as PvE:ers, so that they don't feel like they HAVE to run mythic+ dungeons and/or raids.

Regarding your other point of not having a good enough rating, that is another issue.. Climbing the rating ladder is way harder than doing PvE.. Now this will sound like your average PvP:er saying something like "lol pve scripted bosses aren't hard", which is true in a sense. Sure it may be hard, but not in the same way as PvP. PvE IS trial and error, if you wipe on the same boss enough times you will eventually learn how to kill it (And lately there hasn't really been any exessive wiping in PvE).. When was the last boss in PvE that required over 200 tries to down? Not up to date on recent PvE, I could be wrong here, but it feels like several expansions ago.

Meanwhile, looking at the arena ladder, it is ever increasing, since you're facing opponents who also become better.. That aspect is very static in PvE.

I think that is what bothers people.. Could be wrong though..

Peace

So they want better gear that only mathers in pve but they wanna skip out on the pve content?
how does that make sense?
Sure its few percentile here and there with the pvp templates and ilvl here and there but in the end after 300 games it will even out.

[klaps_05]

the system seems ok to me. From warden towers I usually get 850+, arena gives at least 870 and the rest u can easily fill up. as long as you maintain 2400-2500 rating you can easily "gear up". also u dont need 880 ilevel to compete, most ppl i see after 2400 have around 850 and they do just fine.

ps. it would be nice if prestige also worked like AK, but with 7.1 and prestige not removing talents i guess thats irrelevant

[SirreASDF]

So they want better gear that only mathers in pve but they wanna skip out on the pve content?
how does that make sense?
Sure its few percentile here and there with the pvp templates and ilvl here and there but in the end after 300 games it will even out.

No, the gear does not "only matter in PvE" which is my point. As long as gear has ANY impact in PvP, it should also be attainable at a reasonable rate from PvP. If they removed gear scaling from PvP completely, they could also remove any gear received (transmog purposes would be nice though).

I'd like a change where either PvP gear progression rate is more equal to that in PvE, or no gear progression at all.. Doing 100 arena games without recieving a single piece of gear is dishearting, at best.

Alternatively bringing back "pure pvp gear" that is somewhat bad for PvE but still not completely useless.. Maybe comparable to normal raids or whatever from Rated play. That won't happen though. Blizzard won't backtrack like that.

the system seems ok to me. From warden towers I usually get 850+, arena gives at least 870 and the rest u can easily fill up. as long as you maintain 2400-2500 rating you can easily "gear up". also u dont need 880 ilevel to compete, most ppl i see after 2400 have around 850 and they do just fine.

ps. it would be nice if prestige also worked like AK, but with 7.1 and prestige not removing talents i guess thats irrelevant

Yes, and that's fine. But the majority of players interested in PvP cannot attain that rating, which I think is the reason of the complaints. Sure, if you can't climb the ladder you don't "deserve" the best gear, I agree. But in comparison to PvE, the PvP ladder is much harder to progress.

I personally am satisfied with the ilevel scaling from rating, would however like a little bit less RNG on the random loot drops and a bit more AP from rated play.. If so I would be absolutely satisfied.

Best case scenario would still be no gear scaling in PvP at all though in my opinion. I see how that is a turn-off for some players though. Part of an MMO is progressing your character.

[Deleted]

No, the gear does not "only matter in PvE" which is my point. As long as gear has ANY impact in PvP, it should also be attainable at a reasonable rate from PvP. If they removed gear scaling from PvP completely, they could also remove any gear received (transmog purposes would be nice though).

I'd like a change where either PvP gear progression rate is more equal to that in PvE, or no gear progression at all.. Doing 100 arena games without recieving a single piece of gear is dishearting, at best.

Alternatively bringing back "pure pvp gear" that is somewhat bad for PvE but still not completely useless.. Maybe comparable to normal raids or whatever from Rated play. That won't happen though. Blizzard won't backtrack like that.

I agree with playing 100 games and not getting a piece that is an uppgrade is rough but in a way this is the most equal progress rate pvp and pve have had since u can run a raid once a week or dungeons over and over and not getting that piece with bis stats forever if you have bad RNG.

Pvp have allways had a firm progress in gear Before but now its exactly like pve except you cant choose what dungeons to go for that specific piece.

[SirreASDF]

I agree with playing 100 games and not getting a piece that is an uppgrade is rough but in a way this is the most equal progress rate pvp and pve have had since u can run a raid once a week or dungeons over and over and not getting that piece with bis stats forever if you have bad RNG.

Pvp have allways had a firm progress in gear Before but now its exactly like pve except you cant choose what dungeons to go for that specific piece.

I agree with you that todays setting is more balanced than ever in the rate. Previously PvP has always been faster than PvE, however, that gear has not been best in every aspect of the game.

With the removal of different PvP- and PvE-gears more emphasis has to be put on the gearing rates. The issue to the very core can be broken down into the following two statements:

• PvE people don't want to feel forced to do PvP for their gear.
• PvP people don't want to feel forced to do PvE for their gear.

This was no issue at an "end-game" level with the old actual PvP sets, with the exception of the very first season per expansion usually. It did become an issue later on though, when getting Honor Gear was the easiest way to prepare an alt for PvE content, which Blizzard wanted to move away from.

Again, with the new system, where the PvP and PvE gear is the same, there is way more important that the rate at which gear is achieved is equal between PvE and PvP, or people will complain that they feel forced to do the other aspect of the game in order to min max. I mean, imagine the outcry if PvP would be the best way to receive gear.. This is the exact same issue, only reveresed.

Therefor, with the current system, PvE and PvP gearing rates need to be very carefully balanced in order for everyone to be happy. .This is most likely close to impossible, which is the reason I personally am no fan of this new system.

Again, remove gear requirements completely from PvP, and it'd be fine if PvE gave better gear.. But keeping a few % "just because" is what's causing this outcry.. It's "close to 0% anyways" isn't a valid argument due to the nature of min-maxing. This has been stated multiple times. Not everyone is capable of just accepting that "you can't maximize your gear by PvP only, which you have previously been able to".

Edit: Err, got a bit off-track there. Back to your point about progress rates being equal, maybe they are if you look at the bigger picture, would be nice with some actual data from Blizzard regarding this. At the moment I feel like I'd get gear for PvP MUCH faster by running mythic+ with my guildies instead of doing arena with them. This is what causes issues for me (and I even like Mythic+, it still bothers me though)

Edit2: Another issue with the RNG system for PvP looting is that the loot table consists of at least 4 trinkets (int proc, versa use, battlemaster, passive stats), 3+ rings, 3+ cloaks, 3+ necks. Compare this to only 1 chest, 1 pair of gloves etc.. This means that you are way more likely to only get rings and trinkets and so on, compared to a chest piece.. (Unless Blizzard magically considered this and first does a roll for what slot to drop an item for, but I seriously doubt that.. based on my own experience they have not). I mean, it's great, I have 4 different trinkets and I 3 rings... Still rocking my blue god damn gloves though.. Go RNG!

[ophion1990]

Loot 870 helmet, nice. Loot 875 helmet, okay, I guess. Loot 880 helmet, fuck off with this bullshit man. :|

[Cymorìl]

Point 1, if gear doesn't matter in pvp, they should use a static template, for instance a fixed 850 il, for all players in all contents (arena, rbg, bg, world pvp). At high level arenas 2% more hp can make the difference and the actual system is not fair imo.
Point 2, if gear has only a minimum impact in pvp for heavy geared pve players, they should do the same for pvp players who wants to have casual raiding or mythic+ runs. Right now I've never been accepted in simple mythic with my 851 il, what I have to do to increase more my gear?
Point 3, I find rewarding, and so many people think the same, farming gear both in pvp and pve. For cosmetics and similar, there are many achievements with titles and mounts...

[Osmeric]

Saw an estimate on the official forums that only about 10,000 people have done Rated BGs this season.

[Requiem94]

Speaking of new systems, once you prestige in 7.1 do we know what we are awarded when we hit an honor level that previously awarded a talent?