I REALLY miss 10 man Mythic(Heroic)

[l33t]

I like how - in a game with millions and where servers are really no barrier - people act like 20 people is this impossible number to find.

I still wonder how we managed 72-man raid groups in EQ with a fraction of the playerbase and no server transfers.

It is impossible to find reliable people who will have good attendance, at least good levels of skill and won't be your typical loot whoring drama starters. On my server, 99.9% of people don't fit these small requirements. So, wiped on roster boss in Warlords and then just said "fuck it, we're out", and left mythic raiding. Also, it is stupid to compare nowadays and good old days, by the way.

OT: I miss it too. 10-man format was possibly the best time in wow raiding.

[Arrowstormen]

Scaling is the best, but if we can't have scaling mythics, then 20 man is probably the best number.

[chronia]

We had 1 fight in WoD 20 man mythic were a mind controling priest was useful in BRF and thats it for 20 man mythics, the rest of the fights could have just worked aswell in 10 man with a random setup of players with a little number tuning here and there....so much for "balance around you having access to X ability"....that ship has long sailed since then.

Tbh Mannoroth and Xhul also come to mind as fights that would be near impossible or would have to be made to easy without mechanical changes and just number tuning. Having no DK's for grips or not enough ppl to efficiently handle chains / soaks and voidzones would probably be pretty common in a 10 man setting.

Looking at HFC in all

First boss - Could be 10 man without mechanical changes.
2nd boss - Maybe, but prolly airphase would prolly needed to big changes in number of bombs etc, possibly making it trivial
Kormrok - 10 man should be possible without changes, altough prolly less marks on the floor would be needed.
Council - would need some tuning in the number of bloodboils, but else could be fine.
Kilrogg - Probably needs mechanical changes due to the lower number of ppl to go to other phase
Gorefiend - Probably needs mechanical changes due to the lower numberof ppl to go to other phase
birdguy - Number tuning should be sufficient
socrethar - Number tuning should be sufficient
Tyrant - number tuning should be sufficient
Fellord - Needs mechanical changes to account for the lesser number of ppl
Archimonde - Needs mechanical changes to account for the lesser number of ppl.

[Dominus89]

I dont.
Killing a boss with just 10 people doesnt feel epic at all.

[stomination]

So for example they can expect youll have a priest. Is their any fight that you could not do on mythic without a priest?

- - - Updated - - -



Now is that cause mages and hunters offer exceptional dps or because their ability set allows you to overcome obstacles. And if all you need is mages and hunters how is that balancing around having one of every class?

The point was to make sure you didn't have to have certain classes or else. In 10 man if you didn't have a certain class you had a much harder time doing bosses than the group of 10 that had that magic group. This ended up leading to a few classes being ignored in most 10 mans.

Mages and hunters were brought the same reason rogues warlocks were brought.

[Deleted]

My guild only consists of casuals nowerdays. We just play for some weeks when something new comes out and than everyone disbands his account.
Back in Cata and MoP we were raiding on a semi-hardcore level in the 10men bracket.
WoD destroyed this for us.
I was a raider since the first days of classic WoW. But since WoD came out, I have not seen a real raid (and by real I mean Mythic) even one time.
Maybe it was a good thing for blizzard. But to me it was the. worst. descision. in the history of wow. Just sad.

Nevertheless Legion is a great expansion!

I dont.
Killing a boss with just 10 people doesnt feel epic at all.

I beg to differ https://youtu.be/aI0_alfiPn0?t=10m24s

[Deleted]

From a blizzard's perspective: Alright we can balance these over a template of 20 players, things should be more consistent for raiders!

My perspective: Blizzard you realize class stacking is still happening, you killed off majority of 10 man guilds because they couldn't recruit the extra 10. Then the worse part, 10 players are involved friends raiding, 20 becomes a clusterfuck with less meaningful interaction a lot of the time.

[caervek]

I will never understand why blizzard took away 10man as a viable format for Mythic Raiding.

Basically, it was more popular than 25m and with the fall in subs there was a real danger of 25m dying out. Blizzard had two choices, go with the flow and let 25m die, or kill 10m to save it, they chose the latter (albeit they did drop the requirement by 5m)

[Deleted]

Same story I've heard over and over in recent past is hapenning to me. Stopped raiding last week because of drama / complexity / management generated by this horrible horrible 20-man experience. I'm actually pretty sad to abandon the best part of the game because it was ruined by format. :s

[Lorianus]

From a blizzard's perspective: Alright we can balance these over a template of 20 players, things should be more consistent for raiders!

My perspective: Blizzard you realize class stacking is still happening, you killed off majority of 10 man guilds because they couldn't recruit the extra 10. Then the worse part, 10 players are involved friends raiding, 20 becomes a clusterfuck with less meaningful interaction a lot of the time.

Thats my stance on the matter since they introduced it, the only ones who gained from the change are blizzard themselfs in the form of less balancing work to be done.

We as the players lost the choice to go 10/25 and gained nothing from it, the fights are still now in emerald nightmare being tuned well after bosses die because apparantly a PTR or Beta is not enough.....raiding didnt become better from the change, it became just a matter of less choice.

[caervek]

We had 1 fight in WoD 20 man mythic were a mind controling priest was useful in BRF and thats it for 20 man mythics, the rest of the fights could have just worked aswell in 10 man

Actually the MC fight could have too, the MC mechanic was copied over from Naxx and had already been solved in Naxx10 (with a solution that was actually superior to the Naxx40/25 priest requirement).

[Barendon]

Because its a freaking MMO, you are not special, as I said. I'm not trying to offend you or whatever but if you want to do end content you're gonna have to expand your roster.

All I read from your comments sir, is "I love the current system, it fits me. THIS IS MMO". No. You can't dictate what other people should think of end content. Hardcore raiding should be a difficult task at coordinating groups of people who play above avg according to how I see it. The size of the group shouldn't matter for it to still count.

[Deleted]

Tbh Mannoroth and Xhul also come to mind as fights that would be near impossible or would have to be made to easy without mechanical changes and just number tuning. Having no DK's for grips or not enough ppl to efficiently handle chains / soaks and voidzones would probably be pretty common in a 10 man setting.

Looking at HFC in all

First boss - Could be 10 man without mechanical changes.
2nd boss - Maybe, but prolly airphase would prolly needed to big changes in number of bombs etc, possibly making it trivial
Kormrok - 10 man should be possible without changes, altough prolly less marks on the floor would be needed.
Council - would need some tuning in the number of bloodboils, but else could be fine.
Kilrogg - Probably needs mechanical changes due to the lower number of ppl to go to other phase
Gorefiend - Probably needs mechanical changes due to the lower numberof ppl to go to other phase
birdguy - Number tuning should be sufficient
socrethar - Number tuning should be sufficient
Tyrant - number tuning should be sufficient
Fellord - Needs mechanical changes to account for the lesser number of ppl
Archimonde - Needs mechanical changes to account for the lesser number of ppl.

i wouldn't count "boss uses ability on 2-3 targets instead of 5-6" as a mechanical change.

and tbh that was always a nice part of 10 man: you have to send a larger % of your group on certain mehcanics making it harder.
killrog is a good example, even if you do him 10 man in hfc, 3 still have to go inside. i once did him 8 man even that was great fun.
and even back in the day it wasn't unusual for that kind of mechanic to target same number of people in 10 v 25.

but yeah, mind control has been the only example in the game ever of a class requirement, being mandatory in 3 fights in 12 years. but remember naxxramas? they just put a MC stone in the 10 man version so everybody could do it. and nowadays rogues bring mind control too with bribe. so the argument that mythic is designed to require certain abilities is and always has been dumb.

that leaves aoe deathgrips as the only super powerfull practically mandatory ability in the game, so just remove that or add it as a profession item and game is fine.

[Deleted]

I like how - in a game with millions and where servers are really no barrier - people act like 20 people is this impossible number to find.

I still wonder how we managed 72-man raid groups in EQ with a fraction of the playerbase and no server transfers.

you can't run current mythic raids crossrealm so yes - servers are very much a barrier.

[liquidfear]

10 man mythic raiding not existing anymore is the reason i can only play new xpacs for 1-3 months from release before i stop playing. just dont enjoy raiding with too many people, it ruins the tightness of the group, and i like completely trusting and knowing how my other raiders play and think. much less stress in 10 mans, and i never had a problem with some fights being harder on 10m and some being harder on 25m (specifically enjoyed when they were harder on 10m, because it usually ended up being a dps check) never ran into the problem of not being able to do a mechanic because we lacked the class to do so, and raiding 10m made it feel less like a job and more like friends trying to beat the hardest content there is.

without 10 man raiding at the highest level theres just nothing to do in WoW that will keep me interested long-term. truly wish they would bring it back, but i know they wont

[Deleted]

Vanilla had 40 man raids and 20s and there absolutely were guilds who only did 20s, and MoP gave us Mythic which cut 10 man heroic from the game during that expansion's lifespan, so I don't count it either in this.

well, switch to 20 man mythic came with the pre-expansion patch for warlords, so you can't really count it as being in mists, mop still had 10 / 25 man heroic

[reauxmont]

Honestly balancing properly for such a small raid group and making so that certain comps were not required was next to impossible with top tier difficulties. Just be happy it is not 40 mans anymore because you needed atleast 35 people with a brain on their shoulders to do Naxx and AQ40.

The difference being that during Vanilla, you had to join a guild and bring a certain level of commitment to even remotely achieve anything. Everyone knew that, so people actually wanted to join guilds and do planned raids. Since the introduction of various group finder tools, this kind of behaves like the open relationship thing that is currently very popular. Why should I invest in one guild and be unflexible, if I could just queue via the finder and raid whenever I want? For many people, it seems to be a better option to be flexible and do LFG raids, at the cost of possibly not raiding top-tier.

Also, compared to Vanilla individual skill is much more important now, meaning that you can't just pick up anyone who isn't a complete idiot, they also have to know their class very well and have the right mindset for mythic raiding, otherwise they will fall behind in performance.

[Deleted]

This thread is an echo chamber of 10man wank so I thought I'd just pipe in and say I really enjoy 20 man and am glad the raiding community is no longer fractured into two separate divisions

+1

I lost my raid group due to the change but many of us found a new place, and I don't miss 10 man at all. 20 is a sweet spot.

[PewPewArrowz]

Stop with this stupid bull-headed argument.

All MMO means is that it's concurrently played by a large number of players; NOT that those players do EVERYTHING together.

You are completely misconstruing what MMO is supposed to do to RPG. It's not mandating that activities have to have a large number of players, it's that the game world is populated by a large number of players.

Ten people is a significant number, and fielding twenty is a hell of a task, especially finding healers to support two tanks and thirteen damagers in a very stressful setting.

You aren't special either, so do please stop trying to push what you think "MMO" should mean out. There's a ton of endgame content in other MMOs, even some of the absolute hardest, that doesn't require a huge group.

Bolded your quote to see how ironic your statement is, if you wanna play with friends you don't have to do EVERYTHING, and by everything you and your group of friends is excluded to just 1 thing, that is...Mythic raids.

[Deleted]

+1

my guild is staying casual until the return of mythic 10 man....none of us can stand 20 man always get people slacking or signing and not showing up. We have a great core in the guild but we don't really raid anymore due to no 10 man mythic.