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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Maletalana View Post
    --snip--
    Anything from a 5man, even M+, is useless for seeing actual class balance. Trash AoE dps will show you what classes have good burst AoE, but nothing about sustained AoE since nothing lives that long. Bosses live for 1-3 minutes, so again, its all burst and nothing about outputting constant reliable dps.

    You need to look at Raids, and at THOUSANDS of samples, like this: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...lty=4&sample=7 This shows the past weeks averages across all Heroic Boss Parses, scaled and ranked as comparison. Set to 1 week back, because 2 weeks back includes parses from pre-nerf still.

    We're upper middle of the pack over all, but only because that includes fights we can AoE on.

    If we look at ONLY single target, we pull up Ursoc: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...le=7&boss=1841

    Now its a different story, we're now the lowest single target class that doesnt have another dps option that performs better.

  2. #22
    OP title makes my brain hurt.

  3. #23
    High Overlord seraphbreak's Avatar
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    If we're looking at Mythic+, we are almost as strong as monks and definitely top tier. Our short 45sec-1min cd gives us so much burst for almost every trash pull. Trash is the majority of a M+ dungeon so DH is definitely welcome.

  4. #24
    Mechagnome Maletalana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seraphbreak View Post
    If we're looking at Mythic+, we are almost as strong as monks and definitely top tier. Our short 45sec-1min cd gives us so much burst for almost every trash pull. Trash is the majority of a M+ dungeon so DH is definitely welcome.
    ^^^ x1000.

    Yes, damage done to boss during a boss kill on heroic raids in important. However, if youre trying to hit multiple chest times on mythic+s, your aoe on trash and your utility/cc are just as important.

    BUT MAL I FOUND A LOG THAT SAYS IM THE WORST

    how does it compare your interrupt and cc potential ?

    BUT MAL BOSS FIGHTS

    how does compare your talent to choose between 100% leech for 30 sec during meta vs iceblock immune + 5 sec sprint? That's a pretty potent option that has a variety of uses.

    BUT MAL DAMAGE DONE TO THE BOSS

    Havoc Dh is not broken and useless because others do more damage than you sometimes, under certain parameters, on certain fights, with certain gear.

  5. #25
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dvorjak View Post
    We are currently the lowest ranked dps for boss damage in the 75th to 100th percentile for both heroic and mythic encounters. Not the lowest spec, but the lowest damage dealer out of all classes.

    Therefore we should be buffed...right?

    (Single target)
    This is a rather baffling attitude. Overall, Havoc Demon Hunters are top notch in raids. Because there are a couple of fights where you aren't in the top 3, it sucks?

    Heroic (75%):
    - Nythendra - Middle of the pack
    - Il'gynoth - #2
    - Elerethe Renferal - #3
    - Ursoc - Middle of the pack (lower)
    - Dragons of Nightmare - #2
    - Cenarius - #7
    - Xavius - #4

    There are *many* specs that would kill to be that useful overall in raids.

  6. #26
    They need to buff single target dps, that simple. I don't want to be an aoe padding class.

  7. #27
    High Overlord seraphbreak's Avatar
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    I think we can all agree they should just buff chaos blades or some single target only ability.

  8. #28
    Deleted
    It is true, in terms of raid performance we are the "worst class" atm. The better the gear (higher ilevel brackets) and the better the players (higher percentile), the more pronounced this becomes for EN. We are not shit though, because the difference to the classes above us isn't that big and can still be bridged with better play (and/or gear). I am fine with this as long as we meet the DPS requirements on all bosses (e.g. Ursoc mythic ST DPS).

    We are still godlike in M+ dungeons.

    I don't think we desperately need a buff and I doubt we will get one. A 5-10% increase in CS damage would be okay, tho.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Maletalana View Post
    I keep seeing these threads, but as a Havoc DH main, I just don't see it. I do not raid mythic EN, so it must be exclusive to that raid that we are bad.... in LFR/normal raids/mythic+ 5mans/world boss raids/pvp, I am quite strong. I hear you that there are sims that claim we are shit, but in game, doing content both with my guild and with randoms / pugs, I am always either dominantly top dps (mythic+ with guild), or in top 4 during raids.

    The only time I was near the bottom for dps was during our first attempt of Ursoc back during first week, when I was main shot caller and spent the entire time watching the group and calling out who needs to move where etc, and forgot to even use meta. That fight I was 3rd from bottom.

    Otherwise I am doing great. ilvl 848.

    Are all the complaints coming from mythic EN guilds?


    Honestly at this point I don't expect or feel I deserve a buff of any kind. I feel very strong and not clunky at all.
    OP is talking about boss damage AKA single target only (cept dragons i guess maybe)

    Every type of content you mentioned is aoe based for the most part.

    Aoe (and on overall logs) DHs are doing fine. great even, but thats because you can whore the shit out of practically every fight on mythic except ursoc by blowing big boy dps loads all over adds (even if not needed)

    Whilst on boss damage DHs are pretty bad.

  10. #30
    And I'm not even sure if log data can be considered 100% non-anecdotal as it doesn't cover/count the multitude of other things that could effect the results like time to kill, job in raid, composition of raid etc


    The only real way you can judge is by removing as many variables as possible...and unless Bliz offers up their raid simulators we have to rely on sims like AMR and SimC

    And last I checked...we were still in the middle.

  11. #31
    Yeah, and it doesn't help that in most cases that's just padding, not needed aoe. Il'gynoth is the biggest offender, you can pad so meaninglessly by aoeing oozes that are already dead and exploding, will pad up the meters but mean little.

    Other than Cenarius or the dragons it really isn't that special.

    Outlaw rogue is doing similar aoe but way, way better single target, and so is fire mage, hunter, and windwalker monk.

    Havoc DH are the new enhancement shamans of this xpac, with stupid strong aoe like fire nova constantly nerfed while their single target stays shit.

  12. #32
    More Havoc crying while us that play Vengeance have to sit back and be lumped in when we actually need a buff. Swell.

    Seriously, shut up. Your last round of nerfs actually got partially reverted, meanwhile we needed a buff even before the latest hotfix nerfed us further.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    Havoc DH are the new enhancement shamans of this xpac, with stupid strong aoe like fire nova constantly nerfed while their single target stays shit.
    having lasted from launch till this expansion maining an Enhancement Shaman and finally deciding I'm not being the whipping boy of the devs anymore to switch to DH (and then witness the awesomeness the new shaman are doing)

    I threw up a little when I read this...



    But I still refuse to bring my Shammy out of his garrison until 2017...

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Struggle View Post
    More Havoc crying while us that play Vengeance have to sit back and be lumped in when we actually need a buff. Swell.

    Seriously, shut up. Your last round of nerfs actually got partially reverted, meanwhile we needed a buff even before the latest hotfix nerfed us further.
    Seriously, go cry in a thread about Veng dh. Veng needing a buff doesn't somehow mean Havoc is fine. I play both specs too but Bliz dropped the ball on those nerfs they recently did and also made themselves look like liars.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    Seriously, go cry in a thread about Veng dh. Veng needing a buff doesn't somehow mean Havoc is fine. I play both specs too but Bliz dropped the ball on those nerfs they recently did and also made themselves look like liars.
    It becomes kind of pointless when people have since dropped the spec due to how awful it is, and posts about Vengeance get drowned out by shit like Havoc dpsers crying about wanting a buff.

    Notice the one or two Vengeance threads on page 1 of this forum that get one or two replies a day tops compared to this thread being linked from the MMOC front page of current posts only to find out it's another retarded Havoc crybaby with anecdotal evidence.

    I'll go cry elsewhere when there's somewhere to do it and be heard.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dvorjak View Post
    Do schools no longer teach that anecdotal evidence is trash evidence?

    "Our dps is fine because I top the meters."
    "We are middle of the pack because that is what I notice"

    All trash evidence. Look at the stats on Warcraftlogs and you will see that we are bottom. Not bottom spec, but bottom damage dealer.

    Heroic:

    All bosses, 75th percentile: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...s&difficulty=4

    (Last Class, not spec for dps)

    All bosses, 90th percentile: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...y=4&dataset=90

    Same result.

    Heroic 90th percentile (Damage done to boss):

    Nythendra - Last
    II'gynoth - Second to last (Hunter is last)
    Elerethe- Last
    Ursoc - Last
    Dragons - Second to last (Hunter is last)
    Cenarius - Second to last (Hunter is last)
    Xavius - Last

    We are last overall and last on 4/7 bosses, second lowest are hunters.
    I must not understand how the bars work to show rankings (I would think it's highest dps to lowest dps, but I may be wrong).

    I see the following:

    75 Percentile
    • Nythendra - Ahead of 10 DPS
    • Il'gynoth - Ahead of 16 DPS
    • Elerethe- Ahead of 5 DPS
    • Ursoc- Ahead of 7 DPS
    • Dragon - Ahead of 11 DPS
    • Cenarius- Ahead of 9 DPS
    • Xavius- Ahead of 13 DPS

    90 Percentile
    • Nythendra - Ahead of 9 DPS
    • Il'gynoth - Ahead of 12 DPS
    • Elerethe- Ahead of 4 DPS
    • Ursoc- Ahead of 7 DPS
    • Dragon - Ahead of 10 DPS
    • Cenarius- Ahead of 8 DPS
    • Xavius- Ahead of 10 DPS

    I do not see DH being last or 2nd to last on any of them. Could you please clarify with me on how I should read the charts? As to me it looks like DH is in the middlish of the pack on most fights.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Skalm View Post
    I must not understand how the bars work to show rankings (I would think it's highest dps to lowest dps, but I may be wrong).

    I see the following:

    75 Percentile
    • Nythendra - Ahead of 10 DPS
    • Il'gynoth - Ahead of 16 DPS
    • Elerethe- Ahead of 5 DPS
    • Ursoc- Ahead of 7 DPS
    • Dragon - Ahead of 11 DPS
    • Cenarius- Ahead of 9 DPS
    • Xavius- Ahead of 13 DPS

    90 Percentile
    • Nythendra - Ahead of 9 DPS
    • Il'gynoth - Ahead of 12 DPS
    • Elerethe- Ahead of 4 DPS
    • Ursoc- Ahead of 7 DPS
    • Dragon - Ahead of 10 DPS
    • Cenarius- Ahead of 8 DPS
    • Xavius- Ahead of 10 DPS

    I do not see DH being last or 2nd to last on any of them. Could you please clarify with me on how I should read the charts? As to me it looks like DH is in the middlish of the pack on most fights.
    Pretty much they're trying to skew the results by saying DH only has 1 dps spec, therefor as a CLASS, they are low, because despite other DPS specs being lower, they have other specs that are parsing higher. The spec in and of itself is middle ground single target, but freakishly high AoE, and very high in burst. Other specs are far worse off in their ability to parse medium or higher in all categories, but that's WoW mentality. If you're not the best, you're the worst.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfheart9 View Post
    Pretty much they're trying to skew the results by saying DH only has 1 dps spec, therefor as a CLASS, they are low, because despite other DPS specs being lower, they have other specs that are parsing higher. The spec in and of itself is middle ground single target, but freakishly high AoE, and very high in burst. Other specs are far worse off in their ability to parse medium or higher in all categories, but that's WoW mentality. If you're not the best, you're the worst.
    I am not trying to skew anything. I was very upfront when I said that the class, not the spec is at the bottom. Demon Hunters only have one spec and for it to be lower than ANY other class doesn't seem justified.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skalm View Post
    I must not understand how the bars work to show rankings (I would think it's highest dps to lowest dps, but I may be wrong).

    I see the following:

    75 Percentile
    • Nythendra - Ahead of 10 DPS
    • Il'gynoth - Ahead of 16 DPS
    • Elerethe- Ahead of 5 DPS
    • Ursoc- Ahead of 7 DPS
    • Dragon - Ahead of 11 DPS
    • Cenarius- Ahead of 9 DPS
    • Xavius- Ahead of 13 DPS

    90 Percentile
    • Nythendra - Ahead of 9 DPS
    • Il'gynoth - Ahead of 12 DPS
    • Elerethe- Ahead of 4 DPS
    • Ursoc- Ahead of 7 DPS
    • Dragon - Ahead of 10 DPS
    • Cenarius- Ahead of 8 DPS
    • Xavius- Ahead of 10 DPS

    I do not see DH being last or 2nd to last on any of them. Could you please clarify with me on how I should read the charts? As to me it looks like DH is in the middlish of the pack on most fights.
    Last overall as a class, not a spec. Every other class has a spec option to choose from that can do better than any (only one) spec that Demon Hunter's have. For example a Frost DK does worse, but they can switch to Unholy and outdps a Havoc DH.

  19. #39
    Deleted
    Actually Havoc is okay, I suppose but we we''re not that good anymore our guild went from 3 DH's to 1 during progress, so 2 DH's have to sit, they keep rotating em so everyone gets to progress, but before the nerf, we always used 3 DH's - So I can't really say that DH's are that good anymore, I bet some guilds have even replaced DH if they had more than 1.

  20. #40
    If were talking single target, my most recent mythic Nyth kill I ended at 289k. Are there rets and arms and spriests sitting at 400k? yep. Is my dps more than enough to be useful to the raid and get a solid kill on a boss that was designed around players doing 200k? You betcha. I wasn't even doing a good job of min maxing, I was just hitting my buttons and trying to help raid lead. There was a lot of room for better optimization, as the other DH in our group finished at 305k.

    I can't think of a single fight that I can't stomp face with a demon hunter, either heroic or mythic. And I'm ending our guilds mythic+ 8-9-10's with an average of 400-500k dps over the course of the dungeon. Demon hunters are in an awesome spot, they're crazy fun to play, can hit some pretty big dick numbers if you know how to prioritize your button usage, and they're pretty solid at everything.

    If boss encounters start being designed around higher dps than havoc is able to make happen, and other classes can do it with no problem, it'll be something to bitch about. At the moment were doing just fine.

    I'd say pretty much the only thing I do well at demon hunter is bursting in my momentum windows, not capping felrush or leaving a VR free, and throwing my glaives at things. I'm sitting in the 90% without a ton of effort. I feel like at the level I'm playing I should be in the 50%. I think if you're struggling, its because you're doing something wrong, not because the class can't be played well or that its too difficult. Not to mention we have great burst, and the shorter fights get with gear, the better we get. Nighhold is gonna be legit. The present is nice, and the future looks bright.
    Last edited by Killface1; 2016-10-08 at 02:13 AM.

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