Will raid tuning improve in ToV and Nighthold?

[Amantino]

Raid tuning isn't the problem (except Xavius). Mythic+ and Titanforged is. Titanforged especially, which is the worst thing by miles this expansion. If it wasn't for everyone being decked in titanforged gear from mythic+, bosses like Ursoc would actually be hard.

Why do people just whine and bitch all the time about wow its an entry level raid shut the fuck up

In this case, 'whining' is justified.

[Adramelch]

My suspicion is that they are simply not interested in *!#$block fights to the majority of guilds the way they were in WoD. They are not trying to make less content less longer; they are trying to add new content faster.

So I don't think a tuning mistake was made, I think this is the new model. World First go down fast, mid-range Mythic guilds beat the last boss faster, heroic guilds clear earlier as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if the last boss of the 1st tier was more challenging but I wouldn't count on a five-stage fight.

Cenarius taking 90 wipes or what it was, and then Xavius dying in 5, was definitely not what you explained though. They definitely fucked up tuning on Xavius.

[shi]

Honestly I think people kinda exaggerate in regards to how failed the tuning was. Xavius was the major culprit. If you exclude the last bosses, about the same amount of guilds were 6/7M in the first week of both Highmaul and EN. It's just that they failed horribly with the Xavius fight (in terms of both mechanics and tuning), while the Imp one was glorious.

32? or so guilds were 7/7m at end of week in EN, I don't think there were 32 guilds 6/7M in highmaul at end of 1st week.

[Krazzorx]

Raid tuning isn't the problem (except Xavius). Mythic+ and Titanforged is. Titanforged especially, which is the worst thing by miles this expansion. If it wasn't for everyone being decked in titanforged gear from mythic+, bosses like Ursoc would actually be hard.



In this case, 'whining' is justified.

Idk how much can be blamed on titanforged as it's not like people got an absurd amount higher ilvl of gear.

I mean, most guilds progressing through mythic are average around 870 ilvl. That's a pretty normal ilvl for fighting later mythic bosses. (About 10 ilvls below the drops from the raid).

[Adramelch]

32? or so guilds were 7/7m at end of week in EN, I don't think there were 32 guilds 6/7M in highmaul at end of 1st week.

37 guilds were at 6/7m at the end of the week (EU) in EN. Highmaul is a more tricky one due to the nonlinear nature of it, but by my recollection guilds left Butcher for 6th and 34 guilds killed him by the end of the week (EU again). Ko'ragh had 62 kills for what it's worth.

[Amantino]

Idk how much can be blamed on titanforged as it's not like people got an absurd amount higher ilvl of gear.

I mean, most guilds progressing through mythic are average around 870 ilvl. That's a pretty normal ilvl for fighting later mythic bosses. (About 10 ilvls below the drops from the raid).

Of course people got an absurd amount of gear. I was 868 ilvl when stepping into mythic, without getting much loot from heroic splits (I play healer). All my gear was from m+ with the exception of one relic, pretty much decked in mythic+ titanforged. And I'm far from any exception, most people were in same boat as me.

If it wasn't for m+/titanforged, only a handful of guilds would've killed Ursoc first week. Everyone would've had to do Il'gynoth the way it's intended to be done (double phase 2). I think Legion gearing would've been perfect if they just straight up removed titanforged from the game, and kept warforged to +6 ilvl like we're used to. Is it really good design having mages grind Neltharion's Lair hoping for a high proc on pyroblast relic? Dungeon loot being better than mythic raid loot?

[apples]

so...

highmaul was super hard guys

right?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Of course people got an absurd amount of gear. I was 868 ilvl when stepping into mythic, without getting much loot from heroic splits (I play healer). All my gear was from m+ with the exception of one relic, pretty much decked in mythic+ titanforged. And I'm far from any exception, most people were in same boat as me.

If it wasn't for m+/titanforged, only a handful of guilds would've killed Ursoc first week. Everyone would've had to do Il'gynoth the way it's intended to be done (double phase 2). I think Legion gearing would've been perfect if they just straight up removed titanforged from the game, and kept warforged to +6 ilvl like we're used to. Is it really good design having mages grind Neltharion's Lair hoping for a high proc on pyroblast relic? Dungeon loot being better than mythic raid loot?

I can speak for myself as I've not gotten too much warforged/titanforged. Must be unlucky but I understand people here may get frustrated for the unending BiS. For me I never worried about the BiS list or anything like that. I mean I could do it but I'm not interested in that.

[shadowmatrix]

If the raid was so easy why have so few raid groups cleared it? I read a lot of messages saying it is easy and Blizzard messed up but most of those people have not cleared the raid themselves yet. How can players say Xavius is easy if they have not personally beaten him?

[shi]

37 guilds were at 6/7m at the end of the week (EU) in EN. Highmaul is a more tricky one due to the nonlinear nature of it, but by my recollection guilds left Butcher for 6th and 34 guilds killed him by the end of the week (EU again). Ko'ragh had 62 kills for what it's worth.

fair enough, i didnt recall that many guilds being that far progressed.

[Tech Priest Bojangles]

wow its an entry level raid shut the fuck up

My thoughts as well.

[melodramocracy]

For what I currently do, I think it's fine. We cleared normal for the second time this week (tonight actually), and will be starting in on heroics next week. *shrug*

How fast or slow top guilds clear content is of no consequence to me at this level. Having said that, there's probably a lot of data they'll be going through to adjust the next tier (not to mention neat tricks like pulling the trash after the first boss, having the raid run out of the instance, resetting and going back in makes all that trash disappear )

[Deleted]

i actually like it easier

[KaPe]

so...

highmaul was super hard guys

right?

Imperator was and you couldn't outgear Mythic Butcher before even starting the raid.

[Flurryfang]

Regardless of the level you raid at, you've probably noticed how easy Emerald Nightmare is compared to what you normally do. They clearly messed up badly. (Imo caused by testing stuff at standardized ilvls not accounting for +30-40 ilvls on weapon as is case on live being a big culprit)

Will they have enough time to fix their tuning targets for Trial of Valor and Nighthold?

For an entry raid, i think the tuning is all right. Ofcourse, since i don't raid mythic, i can speak of how that place is going, but normal and heroic is tuned pretty alright. It could be better, but it is far from a mess I play with people who have a hard time killing heroic bosses, so its not really easy, despite people having 850+

I do expect though that Nighthold will be alot harder from the get go But i do think that ToV will be an "easy" raid aswell, since it is a small thing so there is not much space for rise in difficulty throughout the instance

[Amantino]

If the raid was so easy why have so few raid groups cleared it? I read a lot of messages saying it is easy and Blizzard messed up but most of those people have not cleared the raid themselves yet. How can players say Xavius is easy if they have not personally beaten him?

What do you mean few? A lot of people have cleared. Xavius is a joke. Check some videoes and you'll see.

[Spacewalrus2010]

Don't forget they are getting rid of a way to track players position in raids (at least that's what I think it is).

I have no clue if they balanced around that yet or if it's just going forward into patch 7.1, but things like the blades on Xavius were a hell of a lot easier to deal with when you have exorsus tools loaded (or similar addons). Things like DBM /range won't work either as far as I'm aware.

I'm not saying the Xavius or any other boss would have lasted a lot longer because of this, but it's definitely something that would contribute to the easy of the fight.

Yeah, I geddit..."in previous x-pacs it tok people "longer"" wha..wha..wha... Ask yourself Is your guild one of the 60? So how are you all commenting on "messed up tuning"? Or are now all reporters and critics with a magic book that includes the line "And the game god came from heaven and proclaimed "A raid that is cleared by 60 guilds after two weeks is shit tuning"

When people say shit tuning, they mean in relation to the top guilds themselves.

I haven't cleared Xavius even on heroic yet, but it still seems a lot easier than highmaul. I don't mind personally really, but some people like content to get tougher rather than easier.

Yes it is a tough boss to the majority of the players. But that is not what is being argued against. You do not have to participate in the top 60, to make a reasonable leap on whether it's tuning is off or not.

[rogoth]

It does raise a question how the balancing works with all the WF, TF legendaries and all that crap. But if it is like in WoD then the next raid will be quite a bit harder than this one. But yeah, no clue how they can tune it properly with gear being so damn RNG.

the first tier of content (EN/TOV/NH) are all balanced around people not having legendary items, that being said, the introduction of the token drop that upgrades currently dropped legendary items from 895>925 ilvl when 7.1 hits will mean that TOV progress will be over likely within hours of the mode unlocking, as for nighthold, they may change things based on how widespread legendary items are thanks to the bug (which looks to still be in effect), and maybe adjust nighthold numbers slightly upwards in mythic compared to how it was on beta during testing on many of the bosses, of course we never saw gul'dan so it's entirely possible they make him a proper cock block boss which takes a while to get down ala kael'thas in TK way back when or yogg-saron in ulduar whaere it is tuned so high that it might just be impossible to kill it until a few lockouts have passed by, but going forward they have said that the following tiers of content will be tuned with the expectation that at least half the raid team have at least 1 legendary item each, so expect fights to be nigh on impossible to kill if like me you have been given the middle finger by RNGEESUS.

[Deleted]

Cats, nothing wrong with the tuning.

[Dangg]

Xavius seems too easy if he takes way less effort to kill than Ilgynoth/Cenarius, the rest of the raid is fine for entry level.

- - - Updated - - -

How can players say Xavius is easy if they have not personally beaten him?

By listening to people who cleared the raid and looking at wipe data which confirms Cenarius is multiple times harder than Xavius?

Tuning where the final boss turned out to be easier than previous ones was design disliked by the player base ( Dragon Soul) and is something Blizz should avoid.