PvP Lost Some Meaning

[Crruor]

I don't think the old system "win 10 games get 1 piece by Christmas you will have full gear and then season ends" is good system.

I find a lot of players have massive difficulty to adapt (looking for pvp vendor panicking when there is no pvp vendor etc) but pvp is all about pvp now. You can get 800 gear and step right in it won't matter too much. Obviously the more gear the better (even if slightly) but at least you are not gated by a pace "1-2 items per week".

Why there is no competition? Well there are not enough or accessible shinies in pvp, random BGs are the worst experience one can have in wow and they drive away people into anything but randoms and organized pvp takes a hell of a long time to organize.

Takes me 30-40 min to assemble a half decent RBG with people who have played before and have rankings. Then we enter with an mmr 2.1k and we meet an 1.2 team randoms for 1 win. Game ends 3-0 and its 0 points lost for them 0 points won for us.

Currently, everyone has fled rated arena/BGs imho the ranks will be decided even at 2k this season which is pathetic however its not due to removing vendors. Its because of removing any serious incentive and turning the back at the pvp community.

To be fair, for a lot of people the gear was the actual reward, not the titles. Back in the day pvp gear was almost as good as heroic (=mythic) gear. So people grinded just for that.

[ipaq]

Clearly those behind Legion design wanted to move the game away from being able to get what you want to RNG .. You see, before Legion, one could aim for specific gear and play to get it. Legion took that away from us and moved towards Asian/Korean style grind/RNG game design philosophy which assumes 'luck' to be the greatest contributor to ones 'success' in life.

Thing is Western Civilization believes that hard work pays off and 'luck' has very little to do with it. That does not mean every one gets what they want, it simply means if you do not work hard you can be assured you will never get what you want.

A subscription based MMO is not life, and those playing it want to have fun .. Extreme degrees of RNG are not fun ... From Legendaries to PvP loot-box .. Is Holinka part Asian?

Reality check bro, WoW PvP never mattered.

Play a real pvp game instead.

[Osmeric]

To be fair, for a lot of people the gear was the actual reward, not the titles. Back in the day pvp gear was almost as good as heroic (=mythic) gear. So people grinded just for that.

Exactly. The primary purpose of the PvP changes in Legion was clearly to remove PvP as a gearing path for PvE.

[Mazaxist]

Dont really pvp anymore, i used to pvp to collect gear set but now there is no point. i still do occasional random BG but that's about it. The only people who PVP now are the ones that actually LOVE to pvp. Blizzard has killed a reason to AFK in a BG which is one good benefit i guess

I dont like RNG in PVP or PVE loot, wish they did not make wow into diablo.

[slaise1]

PvP lost meaning when requirements disappeared

[Dawon]

I used to pvp a lot.. since Legion I haven't done ONE bg or arena.. not even ONE... I used to do pvp until I capped all gear and such, but now when gear is useless, I really don't have any reason do play pvp...it's fun and all, but since I'm a priest healer, this expansion is one I'm gonna leave out the pvp completely.

[Cracked]

To be fair, for a lot of people the gear was the actual reward, not the titles. Back in the day pvp gear was almost as good as heroic (=mythic) gear. So people grinded just for that.

Uh, I don't know bro, PvP gear was never good compared to PvE gear, with the exception of vanilla wow.

[Deleted]

In my own opinnion legion pvp feels really dull since there isnt really much to look forwards when playing pvp, getting gear FOR pvp is the thing that kept many players motivated, looking forwards for that epic item, getting that farm started to get more items to progress your character with your friends and then later move to arena and higher games to get more epic items etc.
This inaccessibility brought Motivation to players to keep going forwards, it gave a whole lot for people to do in pvp and progressing your character which you played countless hours on end daily was really satisfying after getting that full set and the enjoyment of then being more powerfull than other players.
And those who complained that catching up in pvp was hard, well it really wasnt since the way you got honor was in bg's and then you were able to farm honor which is a big part of pvp, what is honor for you right now, a dull number which means only that you get honor lvl 50 and thus unlocking the talents, GREAT that is your progression now, okay then blizzard decided to bring the prestige system where you would lost every talent and then starting a grind to get your prestige, well that was cool idea and all and i was actually looking forwards to that UNTIL They decided to remove the actuall part of the prestige when you would lose the talents and thus becomming a very VERY boring grind where you dont feel rewarded at all when you eventually get it passively...
Basically what im trying to say here is that inaccessibility brings a lot of motivation to players which is a good thing!
The fact that this is happening to pvp is beacuse there will always be people who complain not getting everything as easy as they want to get them, this is the thing that has been driving this game on its wheels since Wotlk when every expansion we get the game gets dummed down.
Like on Wotlk for PvE they decided to bring naxx back in the release of wrath and what was wrong, every raid and content was cleared during 60ish hours of the launch, every dungeon and raid were more easier than bc and they were accessible for every wannabe dragonslayer out there.
Later on they gave players LFD tool since during wotlk many new players were whining that forming groups were too hard, or "grinding gearscore is stupid when people keep asking that for heroics"
Well they made that even easier, during cataclysm Raid finder was implemented and boy did that bring a huge joy to the pve community giving a lot of people the way to get to see the content which devs over at blizzard even say that "lfr was the worst implementations we ever made to the game" or something like that.

Basically what im trying to get out from this post is that if people want to play MMO RPG they should infact get a way of gearing their character and progressing it via the way that they liked, was that trough pvp or pve with a guarenteed way of getting something when you know you are working your ass off to get that item, having that done with RNG is really really bad for mmo.
And for the people saying pvp shouldnt be the way of gearing your character for PVE, it never was that way, if you were on a pug group where the leader invited people blindly because of gs or ilvl, then jokes on you for being on a group where the leader doesent know any better than you.
I really do hope we could see the come back of gear vendors in pvp and for pve aswell with the tokens. But maybe im just dreaming and the kids these days prefer everything to be accessable so easily that they are playing the game blindly, im not sure anymore.

TLDR: dont read stupid rambling and for me probably seeing everything trough rose tinted glasses, but i feel that the older way of doing the pvp grind, for example in Cata or mop it was brilliantly made.
(Oh and please blizzard really you should make pvp raids happen again, remember BHor VoA, those were a lot of fun, especially when there was a huge pvp battle going trough, really fun times we had back then.... probably will never happen again tough...)

[Kagthul]

Exactly. The primary purpose of the PvP changes in Legion was clearly to remove PvP as a gearing path for PvE.

You know, something that they had already completely succeeded at with Warlords... and which was directly contradicted by their own statements - the entire reason PvP at high ratings rewards Heroic/Mythic iLevel gear is so that those players can go Raid if they want to. Thats a paraphrase of a direct statement from Blizzard at Gamescom.

If they wanted to keep PvP gear out of PvE, all they had to do was change.. nothing. Until the last season of WoD (because there were three seasons, and only two raid tiers), Conquest gear was equal to (or slightly lower iLevel than) Normal raid gear.

Seems fine.

[solarfallz]

Also guild wars 1. Also, every single person who conq capped every week in arena in WoD and most WoW Expansions where your PVP Gear capped every season. In fact, my gear was just as good as Bajheera's after a few months, he just got his earlier than mine bc I sat at 1500 and he's like 2.7K.


The only difference between then and now is that I don't get farmed in BGs for 3 months before getting to that point. How is the current system worse? Don't like it when someone who just hit level 110 outplays and wrecks your shit?

So "it's equal footing once you eventually get the same gear" is your argument here? WoW PVP was N E V E R about "equal footing". Skill and gear are not mutually exclusive. I understand that it's hard for some players who comprehend that people might want to both outgear AND outplay people (presumably because you blame all your losses on gear therefore it can NEVER be skill if there's also gear!), but that's basically how WoW PVP has been for 12 years and trying to change that is a great way to screw over players who enjoyed PVP for the past decade or so.

[Cymorìl]

Yeah but WoD was not the case. Ok gear would scale +30 in rated so as to cover the mythic dudes but in the open world and raiding the 710 gear was average to bad.

I completely agree, but I still would like we could have something like that!!! Pvp players won't have a gear like pve players for raids and dungeons, and pve players won't have a superior gear than pvp players in all pvp situations. I really miss that mechanism even though I don't miss Ashran...

[Snegovik]

Nah, so not true. You just forgot the times where you just got oneshot till you farmed honour for 40 hours of /played, then when you had honour gear you had to farm for a similar time to get the arena point gear, also having to get 2200 rating for proper gear. After that you had to farm raids on what currently is mythic to get proper gear. And you still had to win the equivalent of ashran, but not once per week but as often as possible. And then you had to get the legendaries if you class could use one.

Oh, and you had to spend a shitton of gold which alone took forever.


That was a grind, what we have now really isnt. You farm AP passively and on most classes it doesnt make a huge difference if you are 20 or 30, and 20 really doesnt take long now.

Most ppl refer here to MOP/WOD pvp system, i could gear up char to full conquest in 2 days flat from questing gear to conquest, and all conquest gear provided you with equal footing in Rated PvP.

I mean yes back in classic to get best pvp gear in game you had to play 15-18 hours per day for 3 month straight every day + you had to spend more time after that to PvE to get your legendary wpn. But we are not talking about extremes, most ppl here refer to last 2 xpacs.

Personally i pvp since classic and i find WoD's system of gear is best by far to date. In combat PvP gear would scale in ilvls, making it superior to PvE gear on average (not talking about mythic gear + legendaries) but in PvE instances PvP gear was inferior to PvE gear due to no OP set bonuses, no good trinkets, lower ilvl.

Personally i still PvP and still enjoy it, the difference i have to spend more time grinding wquests for AP, and yes as person above mentioned the AP matters the most atm, gear is not nearly as important as your artifact progress.

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For RBGs I agree with you, arena wise however, it is early in a season, it is always hard to clime ladders 1st 1st month of the anrea season. Give it 2-3 month then you'll see that even bads will be able to hit 2.2k in 3s.

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Reality check bro, WoW PvP never mattered.

Play a real pvp game instead.

Really, only cuz you do not pvp or can not pvp, does not mean it does not matter, look @ Blizzcon 3v3, look at the ladders count how many ppl do rated pvp and multiple it several times and you can guess how many ppl do casual pvp, lastly even all those websites who sell carries, they would not exist if WoW pvp did not matter to ppl.

I find it funny how some ppl come to WoW pvp forums to trash WoW pvp and say play real pvp game. to me this is as real pvp video game as it gets, if you want REAL pvp, i would suggest you to try RLF pvp mate, but when it comes to pvp in a digital world to each is his own.

[Cæli]

I would not have any problem with the system if every single gear weren't wardrobe collectible, but they are by design

[Dristereau]

I personally am not a big fan of what has changed for PVP regarding Legion. I'll say that from the output.

Anyways, I feel like PVP has lost some of it's incentive. As someone who has done a fair chunk of Battlegrounds over the Expansions (My Paladin has over 2000 played) I've always enjoyed slowly working my way up with gear. The way you start off as weak, and slowly get stronger with more gear has always felt like progress. Obviously, there were times when you played against a team in full conquest team and got flattened, but that was part of the Random BG thing, you can't always win them all, and sometimes it would work the other way around.

Instead of gear, we now have to grind Artifact Power and Honor Talents. I dislike Honor Talents, I feel that a Character should have all their abilities when they first enter a Battleground, not having to wait to Honor Level 47 for something. Furthermore, you have to grind Artifact Power due to the Stamina benefit and yet again more abilities. Regarding rewards as well, the very small amount of Artifact Power and the box of crap has to be the confusing and most unrewarding things I've seen in Legion. A loss giving 6 Artifact Power (They have buffed this since) and a box for winning giving a Swiftness Potion is insulting. For the time spent, you'd get much better rewards from a dungeon or a couple of World Quests.

For me, the incentives were power and transmog. Class balance now affects power more than dedication, especially if a new 110 DH can enter a Random Battleground and decimate everything. Marks of Honor are no guaranteed so working towards a Transmog set now is much harder to get. It really should be giving something along the lines of 3 per win and 1 per loss.

There's two changes I would like to see that could fit the current system, and make it work a little better IMO.

Currency Rewards - Return PVP to a currency and make the stats matter again. By all means, use templates, but allow our gear choices to make a difference. This way it feels like progression. Doesn't have to be much, but a consistent method of development would feel better than the current RNG situation. Possibly use Marks of Honor to buy gear, and as I said make it a consistent reward. Have Vendors for PVP Gear.

PVP Talents - Have these unlocked as soon as you hit 110. Let the Players pick and choose, instead of having to wait for a reasonable chunk of time to unlock something like Necrotic Strike.

I personally had no real issues with Warlords way of working. I've also consider MoP the best Expansion for actual separating PVP Gear from PVE Gear and making then two different progression paths. I made suggestions in the past for PVP Gear then to have PVP Power and Resilience on gear instead of Strength, Agility and Intellect, making it worthless for Raiders but excellent for PVP.

[Deleted]

Making PVE raid gear best in slot in PVP .

I see you still can't understand that this isn't true. Gear matters very little, and anyone who isn't completely awful at pvp gets gear at least at normal-heroic raid level.

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To be fair, for a lot of people the gear was the actual reward, not the titles. Back in the day pvp gear was almost as good as heroic (=mythic) gear. So people grinded just for that.

It still is, you get 875+ for 2200 rating, and mythic is 880+

[Azgraal]

Quite the contratry in my case, I jumped headfirst into pvp this expansion, firstly aimed to get them sweet artifact appearances, I admit, but lately I've been having more fun than I think I've ever had doing arenas or bgs, ever.

...then again I think me playing Affliction has something to do with it...

[Sunlighthell]

When man with 12 y.o. mentality desighning pvp in WoW people can't really expect much of a quality from it.

He will be better in posting funny pics and discussing football on twitter rather than keeping his words "If a class is high mobility the damage has to go down." and communicate in proper way with community. GC tried at least.
Or "I’d like to see us doing balance changes more often. Now that we can do it without effecting PVE in any way it gives us a lot more freedom. Previously we’d have to rewrite how a spell works, QA it… but these systems let us change a number from 20 to 30 and we can send it out." from the same Q&A. Xpack is out for more than 1 month and we still have zero changes to mongo classes, in fact we had buff to some already op/good specs like Enh shaman or ret paladin and nerfs to underperforming specs like affliction.
And gear. Why no pvp sets? Ok, no sets, fine. Personally I liked the idea of equal pvp with no gear gate, but when you get "pvp" trinket with use or proc effect which you can't use even in non rated bg... Do I really need to explain how idiotic it is? Also, without gear scaling and actually zero tuning via templates casters will not get better over time and melee mongo fest that you can see now will continue through all xpac. God, they even hid 2v2 to metigate QQ about it.

[Snackwiches]

so you're just going to ignore the fact that almost no mmo in history has had "equal footing" pvp? including the 12 years of this one?

You haven't played many MMOs, have you? Because that's absolute bullshit.

[Crruor]

Reality check bro, WoW PvP never mattered.

Play a real pvp game instead.

So not true, back in woltk days WOW was the biggest esport till SC2 came out. It got the most viewers by far. It did matter at that point.

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Most ppl refer here to MOP/WOD pvp system, i could gear up char to full conquest in 2 days flat from questing gear to conquest, and all conquest gear provided you with equal footing in Rated PvP.

I mean yes back in classic to get best pvp gear in game you had to play 15-18 hours per day for 3 month straight every day + you had to spend more time after that to PvE to get your legendary wpn. But we are not talking about extremes, most ppl here refer to last 2 xpacs.

Personally i pvp since classic and i find WoD's system of gear is best by far to date. In combat PvP gear would scale in ilvls, making it superior to PvE gear on average (not talking about mythic gear + legendaries) but in PvE instances PvP gear was inferior to PvE gear due to no OP set bonuses, no good trinkets, lower ilvl.

Personally i still PvP and still enjoy it, the difference i have to spend more time grinding wquests for AP, and yes as person above mentioned the AP matters the most atm, gear is not nearly as important as your artifact progress.

I was replying to

There's absolutely no functional difference, except that the AP grind is FAR worse than any gear grind ever was.

Notice the "ever".

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Uh, I don't know bro, PvP gear was never good compared to PvE gear, with the exception of vanilla wow.

It wasnt superior to heroic raids most of the time, but in woltk and bc (no idea about cata) the pvp sets in later seasons were way better then any raid gear you could get outide of the hardest instance.

Which mattered a lot back then because the catchup mechanics we have right now didnt exist, you couldnt just get geared in a day or 2 and run the latest raid, you had to grind a shitton. The first time this was somewhat made easier was whith icc, before that pvp gear was easy to get (relative to back then) and very good.

And you had to do nothing but play bgs for it, you could queue and go. No need to talk/pay your way into groups that would carry you through content.

[therealstegblob]

Uh, I don't know bro, PvP gear was never good compared to PvE gear, with the exception of vanilla wow.

This is fundamentally untrue and baseless. During Highmaul, Ret Paladins were topping DPS charts because of their PvP set bonus. All through MoP and WoD PVP gear was completely identical to PvE gear, so PvP gear served as a way to guarantee you'd get gear if you did content. While it was a lower ilvl than the hardest raid difficulty, it was usually better than the normal mode gear. Unless your pvp gear was poorly itemized for your pve dps, it was totally identical to the pve gear in MoP and WoD.