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  1. #21

  2. #22
    I think this is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen. Are you seriously whining about doing a healers job? If people are standing in crap in your 5 man group, why don't you just say something to them? Or keep letting them die to avoidable damage until they say something, then tell them you can't heal stupid. The fix to this isn't specified mechanics, It's communication in a group game

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    That introduces the problem of everybody wanting to interrupt the first cast then having nothing for the second cast though
    Staggering interrupts when people want to do it because of personal incentive is far easier to fix mid-run than having a ton of casts go through because DPS-crazed puggies just cbf putting Kick on their bars
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Scathan View Post
    I think this is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen. Are you seriously whining about doing a healers job? If people are standing in crap in your 5 man group, why don't you just say something to them? Or keep letting them die to avoidable damage until they say something, then tell them you can't heal stupid. The fix to this isn't specified mechanics, It's communication in a group game
    Not whining about doing a healers job, I am saying that the difference between a good group and a bad group much of the responsibility of managing to finish it relies on the healer simply healing more. If a group fails because they aren't interrupting/stunning and take too much damage they don't say "oh we should do a better job of interrupting/stunning" they say "that healer sucked".

    I mean even on a basic level, the games UI doesn't support the ability to coordinate interrupts/cc natively which is beyond ridiculous

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Scathan View Post
    I think this is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen. Are you seriously whining about doing a healers job? If people are standing in crap in your 5 man group, why don't you just say something to them? Or keep letting them die to avoidable damage until they say something, then tell them you can't heal stupid. The fix to this isn't specified mechanics, It's communication in a group game
    People are overly hostile, as you have just performed. You answered your own questions without even realizing it. Mainly because you seem the type of person that has no general self awareness.

    I know it seems like group game and communication are mutually conclusive. They aren't.

    Quoting Robin Williams -
    You think, being an asshole is the only way to get things done.
    Sorry, you aren't. Sorry, you are. And have a good day 25 post alt that only gets on to shit post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiserneko View Post
    Alright, you've convinced me. You've defeated me with your superior intellect and articulate arguments. All hail Jokerfiend.

  6. #26
    Easiest way would be for them to add non-dispellable stuns for standing in bad stuff and then lower the AoE/incidental damage.

    Then the healer would still be needed - since damage is still going out and the single target damage going to the tank isn't any less.

    That said depending on how they implemented it it could be a giant cluster fuck. Think about those naga witches in EoA where they cast polymorph fish. Their regular cast isn't super damaging, but the polymorph is painful all around if it gets off. As such you're really best making sure one to two people share the job of snagging that. If on the other hand every ice lance they did was random targeted and applied a 2s stun off the DR then it becomes far too punishing a move and if you screw up it's pretty much a wipe.

    In other words it would make sense more as a boss mechanic than one for trash - having multiple interruptable casts going out that stun random group members.

    Anyway, sorry no one talks in your runs. On the plus side though you've got an interrupt and a single-target stun as a holy-din, so at least there are two CDs you can monitor.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    Not whining about doing a healers job, I am saying that the difference between a good group and a bad group much of the responsibility of managing to finish it relies on the healer simply healing more. If a group fails because they aren't interrupting/stunning and take too much damage they don't say "oh we should do a better job of interrupting/stunning" they say "that healer sucked".

    I mean even on a basic level, the games UI doesn't support the ability to coordinate interrupts/cc natively which is beyond ridiculous
    So you wish to fundamentally change the way players in WoW approach the game? I think if you said something to the effect of, "I don't feel like healing you through stupid so don't stand in shit if you want to live," at the beginning of every PuG you healed, it'd far more effective than whining about the unwashed masses' general ineptitude.

  8. #28
    I wish I had an answer for this as well. When pug DPS screw up and focus on their meters, it's the healer who has to bail them out or the healer is blamed. There's no good way I know of to show when DPS are being bad, taking unnecessary damage and not interrupting, and how hard the healer has to work to make the dungeon run work.

    One of the things I find funny or interesting is that your average PuG PVPer (random BG) will interrupt every cast they are able to, while the majority of pug PVEers (random dungeon) will never use their interrupt. Same goes for standing in fire. PVPer moves out of everything that hurts where it's not uncommon for PVEers to just stand there and fry.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    People are overly hostile, as you have just performed. You answered your own questions without even realizing it. Mainly because you seem the type of person that has no general self awareness.

    I know it seems like group game and communication are mutually conclusive. They aren't.

    Quoting Robin Williams -

    Sorry, you aren't. Sorry, you are. And have a good day 25 post alt that only gets on to shit post.
    They are if you take the effort. I didn't have any questions really. You may be reading hostility, but it isn't there. exasperation maybe, but no hostility. and I just don't post often, I lurk more often than anything else. Internet is already anonymous enough, why would I need to make an alt account to post?

    Thank you for taking time to respond though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    Not whining about doing a healers job, I am saying that the difference between a good group and a bad group much of the responsibility of managing to finish it relies on the healer simply healing more. If a group fails because they aren't interrupting/stunning and take too much damage they don't say "oh we should do a better job of interrupting/stunning" they say "that healer sucked".

    I mean even on a basic level, the games UI doesn't support the ability to coordinate interrupts/cc natively which is beyond ridiculous
    So basically someone told you that you sucked at healing even though they were causing wipes by standing in stupid stuff and you let it get under your skin. Chalk it up to a bad group and move on. The fix to this doesn't lie in the dungeons themselves, but you taking the time to network with the good people to come across so you don't have to pug, you just run with friends who used to be pugs.

  10. #30
    I think you're missing the point of being a healer. Being a healer has nothing to do with the your HPS, and it has everything to do with understanding your group and eventually predicting (correctly) when to use your defensive cooldowns. You learn as the dungeon goes on, and the best healers adapt.

  11. #31
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    There can still be mechanics that increase healing, but it shouldn't be everything in the dungeon. And like I say, them dying tends to make the healer feel like they are failing rather than a DPS feeling like they could've done something different.
    It's a good thing we have addons like Skada and Recap that shows you what you died to

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Scathan View Post
    So basically someone told you that you sucked at healing even though they were causing wipes by standing in stupid stuff and you let it get under your skin. Chalk it up to a bad group and move on. The fix to this doesn't lie in the dungeons themselves, but you taking the time to network with the good people to come across so you don't have to pug, you just run with friends who used to be pugs.
    Nobody has told me I sucked at healing actually. I do know that it happens though. I am a perfectionist though and hate thinking that if maybe I had popped Avenging Wrath before casting Holy Shock because I knew that a bit more burst was coming then that person wouldn't have died to the interruptable damage. I know I can improve, I am not delusional I just hate that the current method of punishing groups tends to punish healers more than anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by big deal View Post
    I think you're missing the point of being a healer. Being a healer has nothing to do with the your HPS, and it has everything to do with understanding your group and eventually predicting (correctly) when to use your defensive cooldowns. You learn as the dungeon goes on, and the best healers adapt.
    I cited HPS as it is the only decent metric we have to show how much damage the group took for us to heal. Assuming both groups clear a dungeon and performed similarly they should take similar damage over time. The fact that you can take double (and even more) the amount of damage shows the disparity involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    It's a good thing we have addons like Skada and Recap that shows you what you died to
    Oh the player died to damage. Why didn't you heal him, healer? Outside of mechanics that 1 shot you, it is often a "lack of healing enough".

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    Nobody has told me I sucked at healing actually. I do know that it happens though. I am a perfectionist though and hate thinking that if maybe I had popped Avenging Wrath before casting Holy Shock because I knew that a bit more burst was coming then that person wouldn't have died to the interruptable damage. I know I can improve, I am not delusional I just hate that the current method of punishing groups tends to punish healers more than anything else.
    Bad groups suck for everybody dude, healers aren't special in that. While we're at it why don't we find some way to punish tanks who can't keep threat or position correctly, and punish healers who can't heal through avoidable damage. I'm wondering how you measure that it's more punishing for you as a healer than anyone else, other than personal opinion.

    and also, you should learn from that as well, maybe you should have avenging wrathed instead of leaving it on cd, or maybe if I die to unavoidable damage, I should have popped a personal cooldown on unavoidable damage in order to survive instead of just relying on the healer, sure, you might bear some responsibility for a rough run if you didn't use everything perfectly, but it's more on the fault of the people that aren't following basic mechanics.
    Last edited by Scathan; 2016-10-10 at 06:25 AM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by WskyDK View Post
    But how do you fix it?
    Don't do pugs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Brolibear!
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  15. #35
    One amazing thing that Wildstar did was introduce MOOs(Moment of opportunity). Whenever a mob was interrupted, that mob would take 50% increased damage for 5 seconds. Such a tiny and simple mechanic adds so much the the game. You and your group are immediately rewarded for doing the right thing. It's clear that interrupting is a very good thing and it will increase your damage. It also helped that pretty much EVERY cast in that game was deadly, so people learned quick to interrupt.

    Interrupting was so fundamental that interrupting rotations had to be established. The system was designed such that most of the time you need more than 1 person to interrupt a single spell casy, and different classes had different interrupts/cool downs. It required a level of communication that just doesn't exist in WoW dungeons. "Group 1 have interrupts?".. "No..".. "Okay group 3 take the next cast, group 2 takes the one after". This is just in 5 man dungeons btw.

    The real genius was that when a mob had an active MOO, your damage numbers change to purple. You can immediately see that you're doing more damage and that is highlighted with purple text.
    Last edited by Thermor; 2016-10-10 at 06:31 AM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melkandor View Post
    Exactly.
    One idea could be reducing the damage people deal when they stand in bad shit. DPS would be way more responsive than we're seeing currently.
    How would things dying slower help healers?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    Nobody has told me I sucked at healing actually. I do know that it happens though. I am a perfectionist though and hate thinking that if maybe I had popped Avenging Wrath before casting Holy Shock because I knew that a bit more burst was coming then that person wouldn't have died to the interruptable damage. I know I can improve, I am not delusional I just hate that the current method of punishing groups tends to punish healers more than anything else.



    I cited HPS as it is the only decent metric we have to show how much damage the group took for us to heal. Assuming both groups clear a dungeon and performed similarly they should take similar damage over time. The fact that you can take double (and even more) the amount of damage shows the disparity involved.


    Oh the player died to damage. Why didn't you heal him, healer? Outside of mechanics that 1 shot you, it is often a "lack of healing enough".
    Then you show them that they died within a single GCD. It's easier for you to open your mouth and tell them what to do, than to completely redo the entire experience to cater for you

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Thermor View Post
    One amazing thing that Wildstar did was introduce MOOs(Moment of opportunity). Whenever a mob was interrupted, that mob would take 50% increased damage for 5 seconds. Such a tiny and simple mechanic adds so much the the game. You and your group are immediately rewarded for doing the right thing. It's clear that interrupting is a very good thing and it will increase your damage. It also helped that pretty much EVERY cast in that game was deadly, so people learned quick to interrupt.

    Interrupting was so fundamental that interrupting rotations had to be established. The system was designed such that most of the time you need more than 1 person to interrupt a single spell casy, and different classes had different interrupts/cool downs. It required a level of communication that just doesn't exist in WoW dungeons. "Group 1 have interrupts?".. "No..".. "Okay group 3 take the next cast, group 2 takes the one after". This is just in 5 man dungeons btw.

    The real genius was that when a mob had an active MOO, your damage numbers change to purple. You can immediately see that you're doing more damage and that is highlighted with purple text.
    Wildstar was a great game, a bit of a clusterfuck at times, especially pvp, but a great game nonetheless, it came out a few years too late, if it came out around TBC time it would have been much more successful

  19. #39
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Snackwiches View Post
    lol what, improve the 12 year old, horrible UI? That's crazy talk.

    Seriously though the UI in this game is a fucking abomination.
    12 year old? The UI is actually pretty good today and its been updated several times.

    Try harder next time you basement dweller

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    Then you show them that they died within a single GCD. It's easier for you to open your mouth and tell them what to do, than to completely redo the entire experience to cater for you
    More often than not, people don't die within a GCD but they do die in a few seconds and multiple people in the group take damage and sometimes it is multiple people on the verge of dying because of how much damage AoE can do in mythics.

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