I hate the massive disparity in group damage between a pug and an organized group

[Thermor]

Wildstar was a great game, a bit of a clusterfuck at times, especially pvp, but a great game nonetheless, it came out a few years too late, if it came out around TBC time it would have been much more successful

There are a shitton of reasons that Wildstar flopped. terrible itemisation, broken PvP for a very long time, bugs, multiple exploits (medic DPS anyone?), very small and perhaps overly punishing end game, repeatedly missing their own patch deadlines and repeated releasing bug filled patches. Did I mention the problems with the end game? The added a daily quest type system for end game but it really should have been there at launch.

There also should have been more than 4 dungeons at launch. Even after these years I think there are still only 5 or 6 dungeons. If they released more dungeons more frequently I'd definitely go back to it. Hands down the most fun I've ever had in an MMO.

Anyway, back on topic. Does anyone see a problem with introsycing a mental of opportunity system in WoW?

[Deleted]

I think this is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen. Are you seriously whining about doing a healers job? If people are standing in crap in your 5 man group, why don't you just say something to them? Or keep letting them die to avoidable damage until they say something, then tell them you can't heal stupid. The fix to this isn't specified mechanics, It's communication in a group game

I healed EoA+6 this week with 4 random guys. We got 2 chests. During the whole run 1 dps (monk) did not stop complaining, after it was over we pointed out that he was the only one who ever died (by standing in crap). What do you think he did when we told him this?

He started swearing at me and the tank, saying that we are **** and that we suck *** ***** ****. It was even funnier when he said I couldn't heal +6 when I clearly just had done so. Yet... yeah... communication in a group game is not possible if the other party is not willing to listen.

[Nikkaszal]

One amazing thing that Wildstar did was introduce MOOs(Moment of opportunity). Whenever a mob was interrupted, that mob would take 50% increased damage for 5 seconds. Such a tiny and simple mechanic adds so much the the game. You and your group are immediately rewarded for doing the right thing. It's clear that interrupting is a very good thing and it will increase your damage. It also helped that pretty much EVERY cast in that game was deadly, so people learned quick to interrupt.

Interrupting was so fundamental that interrupting rotations had to be established. The system was designed such that most of the time you need more than 1 person to interrupt a single spell casy, and different classes had different interrupts/cool downs. It required a level of communication that just doesn't exist in WoW dungeons. "Group 1 have interrupts?".. "No..".. "Okay group 3 take the next cast, group 2 takes the one after". This is just in 5 man dungeons btw.

The real genius was that when a mob had an active MOO, your damage numbers change to purple. You can immediately see that you're doing more damage and that is highlighted with purple text.

The damage increase is nice but in reality Wildstar's system was that if you did not interrupt key casts then you just flat-out wiped immediately. People learned this fast because it was prevalent right from doing normal Stormtalon way back at lvl 20 and EVERYONE had an interrupt.

WoWs mechanics don't follow this because interrupts are limited and stuns etc don't work on bosses. There can only be a handful of interruptible abilities because they're incredibly easy for players with even half a brain and are basically just requiring your melee and tanks to not be watching YouTube on a second screen. The only time interrupts have been a direct challenge to a boss were during Reliquary back in BT, and only then because they were so fast and frequent that anyone playing on overseas ping basically had to have lightning reflexes to catch them, over and over for three minutes. Meanwhile, adding a mechanic that requires multiple interrupts per cast like Wildstar means that realistically you must give every single class and spec an interrupt to prevent class-stacking requirements, which then further devalues "normal" interrupts...

[Thermor]

The damage increase is nice but in reality Wildstar's system was that if you did not interrupt key casts then you just flat-out wiped immediately. People learned this fast because it was prevalent right from doing normal Stormtalon way back at lvl 20 and EVERYONE had an interrupt.

WoWs mechanics don't follow this because interrupts are limited and stuns etc don't work on bosses. There can only be a handful of interruptible abilities because they're incredibly easy for players with even half a brain and are basically just requiring your melee and tanks to not be watching YouTube on a second screen. The only time interrupts have been a direct challenge to a boss were during Reliquary back in BT, and only then because they were so fast and frequent that anyone playing on overseas ping basically had to have lightning reflexes to catch them, over and over for three minutes. Meanwhile, adding a mechanic that requires multiple interrupts per cast like Wildstar means that realistically you must give every single class and spec an interrupt to prevent class-stacking requirements, which then further devalues "normal" interrupts...

Yeah I see what you mean.

So basically, the reason this can't work in WoW is because not everyone has an interrupt, so classes with interrupts would be favored.

It was so damn satisfying to see that extra damage purple text though. Saving cool downs and high damage abilities for the extra damage, planning around it
Such a tiny thing adds so much depth.

[Otimus]

It's an MMORPG. Difficulty pretty much can't exist in any real intrinsic way without stupid mechanics, because it's not an action game, the enemies have zero AI, and almost everything is based around rote routine and doing whatever whenever, because that's the only way to make things challenging without changing the genre. It's sort of the same reason you can't have legitimately challenging solo content. Mechanically speaking, it's nearly impossible without fundamental changes to what the game is. (If you ask me, as is, the game already has way too many action-y mechanics for an RPG as is, thanks to addons and Blizzard trying to build a better mouse trap, so to speak)

[Nikkaszal]

Yeah I see what you mean.

So basically, the reason this can't work in WoW is because not everyone has an interrupt, so classes with interrupts would be favored.

It was so damn satisfying to see that extra damage purple text though. Saving cool downs and high damage abilities for the extra damage, planning around it
Such a tiny thing adds so much depth.

Basically, yeah

Also I mentioned interrupt incentive earlier in this thread and someone else pointed out, correctly, that people would end up blowing their interrupts on the first available casts just to get the boost. And I saw this happening in Wildstar as well - mobs would have a no-interrupt-armour basic ability or nuke that could easily be dodged, and people would lay stuns on it just for a MoO... and all of a sudden WHOOPS here comes a 3-armour self-heal you don't have enough interrupts for

You find that in WoW already. DHs in Violet Hold kicking the Mind Spikes just for the Fury/Pain generation and then letting Shield Of Eyes go through because kicks are down...

[Thermor]

Basically, yeah

Also I mentioned interrupt incentive earlier in this thread and someone else pointed out, correctly, that people would end up blowing their interrupts on the first available casts just to get the boost. And I saw this happening in Wildstar as well - mobs would have a no-interrupt-armour basic ability or nuke that could easily be dodged, and people would lay stuns on it just for a MoO... and all of a sudden WHOOPS here comes a 3-armour self-heal you don't have enough interrupts for

Can't say I ever had that problem, since almost every dungeon run I did in that game I did with a premade group, which was the original intention right? If I remember correctly, the game didn't launch with a group finder.

I guess the point I'm trying to make applies more to premade groups than pugs

I'm just so nostalgic for Wildstar. Remember the first time you killed the last boss in skullcano? Remember the first time clearing SSM? Can you imagine what would happen if WoW did setting like that?

The first time my group was in SSM, we were there for 4 hours and didn't even reach the last boss. It's a 5 man dungeon for anyone who doesn't know.

[Deleted]

Can't say I ever had that problem, since almost every dungeon run I did in that game I did with a premade group, which was the original intention right? If I remember correctly, the game didn't launch with a group finder.

I guess the point I'm trying to make applies more to premade groups than pugs

I'm just so nostalgic for Wildstar. Remember the first time you killed the last boss in skullcano? Remember the first time clearing SSM? Can you imagine what would happen if WoW did setting like that?

I played wildstar for a total of 30 minutes. Found the profession system annoying and the races too cartoony

[Svisalith]

It's hard to avoid this - it's fairly intrinsic to any multiplayer game with difficulty levels. The problem here is that Support roles in general are at the mercy of their group's ability to perform.

The best way to solve this (imo) is to give the Support player more agency (in this case - their own interrupt, CC, strong reactive abilities, etc), but not enough to let them solve all of the group's problems.

What do you have to say about Non-support players (DPS) being at the mercy of the support players to perform? The difference between 3 chest and 1 chest in a level 4-9 is usually down to the performance of my tank and healer.

[Thermor]

I played wildstar for a total of 30 minutes. Found the profession system annoying and the races too cartoony

Then you really missed out on the best 5 man content in an MMO (in my opinion). It was truly amazing and nothing in WoW dungeons even come close to it (again, in my opinion).

I never did the professions, because I didn't want to, and the cartoony graphics is just the style they went with. Never had a problem with it.


Actually, I take some of that back. Some of the dungeons in legion are amazing (thematically speaking that is, not mechanically).

[Nikkaszal]

Then you really missed out on the best 5 man content in an MMO (in my opinion). It was truly amazing and nothing in WoW dungeons even come close to it (again, in my opinion).

I never did the professions, because I didn't want to, and the cartoony graphics is just the style they went with. Never had a problem with it.


Actually, I take some of that back. Some of the dungeons in legion are amazing (thematically speaking that is, not mechanically).

I felt exactly the opposite with Wildstar. The lack of puggability basically killed the game for me once my mates all got bored with the hideous grinds and dropped out. The problem with appealing to the "hardcore" crowd became evident when the playerbase ended up relatively tiny and anyone who wasn't playing in an organised group got stooged. The boss mechanics weren't "tough", really, it was just overtuned so hard that a small lapse in healing meant your tank got pasted and one mistake dealing with bosses meant an unrecoverable wipe.

Regardless, this also against the topic, which is about PuGs.

[FertsBlert]

It's easy to fix this problem, DON'T PUG. Find a nice group that you fit with socially and do the content with known quantities.

[Deleted]

If you're just looking for consistency find a group to work on them with and make sure voice comms are used. There's no tuning or magic formula blizzard can provide to give every pug equal damage and skill. As for all those talking about punishing dps for not interrupting, all tanks and most healers can interrupt so why should the dps be the ones punished for it?. I run with a MW who pretty much uses para on CD just to reset casts, constantly leg sweeps to reduce damage and gets in on the interrupts. It's pretty much just about people knowing what their specialisation and their other party member's specialisations can or cannot do.

[Meiffert]

Staggering interrupts when people want to do it because of personal incentive is far easier to fix mid-run than having a ton of casts go through because DPS-crazed puggies just cbf putting Kick on their bars

Easiest way would be for them to add non-dispellable stuns for standing in bad stuff and then lower the AoE/incidental damage.

I'm somewhat interested where so many people formed this opinion.
In my experience the players on top of the meters also have the most interrupts, stand in fire less etc. Generally better players know the instance and their class better while the bad players are bad at numbers and mechanics.

As for the topic of this discussion, it's not something specific to healers in my opinion. If you group up with weaker players, you will have to carry the group more. No big mystery.

[Sencha]

That's why I never tank or heal in pug if I don't want to shoot myself.

[TheRabidDeer]

Can't say I ever had that problem, since almost every dungeon run I did in that game I did with a premade group, which was the original intention right? If I remember correctly, the game didn't launch with a group finder.

The game is drastically different from launch. If you want to go back to out of combat resses, being assigned to dispelling only, rotating groups for totems, warriors being the only real tanks, no summoning stones/CRZ, 40 man raids (none of this flex raid that lets you go from 10-25 people on the fly) and other things feel free. But I want to play and work with the game that we have now.

As for the topic of this discussion, it's not something specific to healers in my opinion. If you group up with weaker players, you will have to carry the group more. No big mystery.

I am questioning why all the punishment technically goes to healers. Of course you have to carry more it just feels like it is too much to carry.

[pmkaboo]

am i missing something or are you really complaining about not being able to slack?

[Thermor]

The game is drastically different from launch. If you want to go back to out of combat resses, being assigned to dispelling only, rotating groups for totems, warriors being the only real tanks, no summoning stones/CRZ, 40 man raids (none of this flex raid that lets you go from 10-25 people on the fly) and other things feel free. But I want to play and work with the game that we have now.



I am questioning why all the punishment technically goes to healers. Of course you have to carry more it just feels like it is too much to carry.

I was talking about Wildstar and the way they encourage interrupting (bonus damage on interrupted mobs for a few seconds), not sure if you got that.

[TheRabidDeer]

am i missing something or are you really complaining about not being able to slack?

You see absolutely nothing wrong with pug healing a +5 having to put out the same amount of healing as an organized +15?

I was talking about Wildstar and the way they encourage interrupting (bonus damage on interrupted mobs for a few seconds), not sure if you got that.

Apologies. It is late and I should go to bed, I missed that you said "that game".

[Hawthorne Wipes]

I wish I had an answer for this as well. When pug DPS screw up and focus on their meters, it's the healer who has to bail them out or the healer is blamed. There's no good way I know of to show when DPS are being bad, taking unnecessary damage and not interrupting, and how hard the healer has to work to make the dungeon run work.

One of the things I find funny or interesting is that your average PuG PVPer (random BG) will interrupt every cast they are able to, while the majority of pug PVEers (random dungeon) will never use their interrupt. Same goes for standing in fire. PVPer moves out of everything that hurts where it's not uncommon for PVEers to just stand there and fry.

That's something I can generally agree with.
Couple of days ago I run a random heroic as a tank, and found the group kind enough to be talking with em the whole run.
I complimented the shaman, because he was interrupting all the mobs casts, dropping the stunt totem whenever he could, standing behind the mobs, etcc..
His response was that he was just used to do it in PvP.