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  1. #61
    The Lightbringer Christan's Avatar
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    how to fix? make things take X% more damage after a stun/interrupt for a few seconds during/after?
    all of a sudden dps and tanks will be cycling through those.

    would have to limit to single target stuns/interrupts, or whatever the current target is when using an aoe one, instead of aoe damage boost(would make some classes clunky and some classes to strong -shaman-)
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  2. #62
    most players are new and dont understand yet the benefit from locking down mobs with stuns, interurpts, etc., depending on party setup. I tried once explaining to a pug in arcway that after you get 5 stacks from the banshee, u need to chain interrupt so the stack resets and healer keeps up. clueless, all interrupting at once. My best success was couple weeks ago in MoS +8, necrotic and raging. 3 paladins couldnt understand why they need to stun mobs when they are low hp, but eventually learned.

    Arcway as an example - basically every mob casts some shit and half of it is unavoidable aoe. interrupts are 15-24s cd x5, which means you can save your healer literally millions of dmg he needs to heal. also basically any mob that casts a channel which is not a spell can be interrupted by ANY stun/disorient, e.g. gauge, holy priest(!) holyword-whatever.

    There were times when we were doing timed ZA runs and as a mage you had to spam sheep trolls to interrupt their casts. Pretty sure people dont even realize they can use CC in that way.
    Last edited by klaps_05; 2016-10-10 at 10:24 AM.

  3. #63
    Fluffy Kitten Aurora's Avatar
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    I think it's part of a broader issue within pug groups where the environment really fails to encourage teamwork. In the old days of single realm cultures there was always an incentive to play well and show a respectful attitude to group leaders or players from prominent guilds as this was the kind of thing that opened doors for you. Without it they simply don't care, they will work you the healer as hard as possible if it means a more relaxing time for themselves.
    I'd love to see a sort of player recommendation system implemented where after groups you could promote players who performed well, a sort of currency or rating which could be visible for group creation. It may change the attitudes away from facerolling damage and towards impressing the players around you.

  4. #64
    Maybe introduce something like dungeon scoreboards, a way for dps to also earn satchels.
    For example least avoidable dmg taken get's a satchel, most successful interrupts get's one but letting a cast go through will reduce everyone's score and it can go negative so noone can get a satchel for example. You can also put the obvious things like most boss dmg and most trash dmg on there.

    Give the dps an incentive to perform better.

  5. #65
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    I think it's part of a broader issue within pug groups where the environment really fails to encourage teamwork. In the old days of single realm cultures there was always an incentive to play well and show a respectful attitude to group leaders or players from prominent guilds as this was the kind of thing that opened doors for you. Without it they simply don't care, they will work you the healer as hard as possible if it means a more relaxing time for themselves.
    I'd love to see a sort of player recommendation system implemented where after groups you could promote players who performed well, a sort of currency or rating which could be visible for group creation. It may change the attitudes away from facerolling damage and towards impressing the players around you.
    There has always been bad players, and back then it was even worse. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. I've seen tons of people die to something they should never have been hit by, just to immediately throw blame at the tank / healer / other DPS, and they probably actually do believe that it was someone else at fault.

    Saying that people used to have an incentive to play well and be respectful, and they no longer do, is simply just not true. In some cases maybe, but that is also true today, mostly because some people don't like being dicks who are bad at the game.

    A rating system like that could be easily abused, and doesn't necessarily fix the problem which is: People are just generally speaking really bad at the game. The fix for that problem is: Play with people you know. Easy! Then we might also see a reduction in the posts wanting wow to go back to its "social roots".

    To be honest, it is kinda ridicoulus. "The game has no incentive to talk with anyone any longer, due to crossrealm, LFR, LFG!" - "PUGS suck so hard, people are bad / leave / whatever, Blizz pls add incentives / mechanics / whatever to make it stop". Funny how that works.
    Last edited by mmoc738030ea5a; 2016-10-10 at 10:56 AM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Speshil View Post
    It should also give stun/debuff with game notifications "You are stunned/reduced haste from this Ability. You need to interrupt this Ability!" -esque message.
    This. If Blizzard are going to design around the fact that Boss Mods exist, more improvements need to be made baseline. Notifications to interrupt for players who just haven't learned that they can/need to is a good idea.
    The "you're standing in fire" effect on screen is also a great idea.

  7. #67
    Deleted
    I have an idea, instead of crossing our fingers and hope Blizz is going to chance something, lets band together and see if this is a problem that can be fixed with a costumized Addon, or even simple Macros.

    As far as i can read, the major problem is communication between players in pugs, specifically interrupting order and what to interrupt
    I was thinking something like:

    - Scan group and give each person able to interrupt a number <- This number represents what order you interrupt in

    - At bosses The Addon wil whisper those who are in the Interrupt order and tells them what and when to interrupt.

    - Give a nice greeting to the people at the start of the dungeon and inform them what this addon wil do.

    Anyway, just some brainstorming and a possible solution for a problem.

  8. #68
    Deleted
    There's not a lot of other ways in which you can make something punishing. If something doesn't do damage you don't need a healer. If there is nothing punishing to the healer when not properly handled then playing healer becomes utterly boring. While the wildstar idea of mobs take % more damage for a bit after an important cast is interrupted would be a nice way to encourage people to interrupt it won't fix the issue. People who don't interrupt right now or sit in fire won't interrupt with that buff in place nor will they move out of the fire. If you can't heal through it then it's not necessarily your fault but you will need to carry the group somewhat if your group is bad.

    Removing the panic moments from healing won't fix this issue. Trying to give some incentive to people would be a minor help but won't make that large of an impact either. You need to realize that this isn't solo content so it's the group that fails or succeeds. Trying to make just part of the group suffer consequences will never work as it trivializes another role. Sure, people will contribute in varying amounts to the success of a run but at the end success is judged by how the group did not how each individual player performed.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    You see absolutely nothing wrong with pug healing a +5 having to put out the same amount of healing as an organized +15?
    besides bads being bad, no, not really. this "issue" also isnt related just to healing mythic+, for example last week i cleared 7/7 on 3 tanks, every time i started a pug with exactly the same name and requirements, every time on every boss i explained the same strategy with exactly the same amount of detail, also the group composition was always the same, yet, the first group wiped 2 times on ursoc and one shot everything else, the second group wiped 4 times on eye, once on cenarius and one shot everything else, and the last group one shot everything up to xavius where we wiped 5 times without even reaching P3... can blizz fix this somehow? no they cant, we have to fix it ourselves by grouping up with people we know to be good. its the only real solution to all multiplayer problems.
    Last edited by pmkaboo; 2016-10-10 at 11:27 AM.

  10. #70
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Chandoe View Post
    I have an idea, instead of crossing our fingers and hope Blizz is going to chance something, lets band together and see if this is a problem that can be fixed with a costumized Addon, or even simple Macros.

    As far as i can read, the major problem is communication between players in pugs, specifically interrupting order and what to interrupt
    I was thinking something like:

    - Scan group and give each person able to interrupt a number <- This number represents what order you interrupt in

    - At bosses The Addon wil whisper those who are in the Interrupt order and tells them what and when to interrupt.

    - Give a nice greeting to the people at the start of the dungeon and inform them what this addon wil do.

    Anyway, just some brainstorming and a possible solution for a problem.
    You can get the interrupt/stun cooldowns for players in your group but the rest isn't easily doable. If you pull 3 mobs and you need an interrupt on all 3 who interrupts what? What about people not being in range to interrupt or otherwise unable to? What about cases where a stun would be better or where you need to save interrupts/stuns for a particular part of the encounter?

    While it's pretty much impossible to get an addon that will tell you what you need to do in terms of CC getting one that lists what your group can do to CC is doable but you'd need everyone to have it and people with a brain in order for it to work. Honestly it's easier to just get everyone in something like discord so that you can easily coordinate things like stuns/interrupts.

  11. #71
    More mechanics that reduce the damage you deal when you get hit by them.

    E-peen whores who only care about the numbers on skada will actually begin to pay attention and move out of effects once it starts negatively impacting their DPS.

    As far as pugs vs organized groups though... Pugs are complete garbage, that is why they are pugging instead of running with an organized group. Stick to organized groups. If your guild doesn't have any, find a new guild. WOW isn't hard.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  12. #72
    I dunno, I quite like the tuning as it is right now. Sure it's a pain to heal PUG +6 when everyone is standing in bad, but it also makes you appreciate the huge difference when people do the right thing - while still not being so punishing that it's un-puggable.

    It also leaves room for organised groups to push higher while still allowing the occasional mistake.

  13. #73
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    It is a hard problem to solve, because you want to reward people for interrupting, but not make it a which dps should be fighting over. The problem with the dmg increase because you interrupted, is that you get the Tricks-Of-The-Trade-Problem, where raids/dungeon groups gets wierd dps numbers, because people focus buffs on specific people.

    Interrupting in group content is natural unrewarding, because you often interupt something, which does not affect yourself. This means, that you many times won't see a visual difference between you interrupting and not interrupting. I don't really know how to fix this through, so it must be a problem left up for somebody who works professionally with this
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    I am questioning why all the punishment technically goes to healers. Of course you have to carry more it just feels like it is too much to carry.
    I don't think it does.
    It can be the healer being undergeared or inexperienced and it's up to the tank and damage dealers to carry and try extra hard to stay alive while the healer is out of mana or dead and running back.

    I think the issue is more that a failed healing check often results in a wipe, while dps checks on individual encounters are rare in dungeons, so it's a lot harder to pinpoint where a dps becomes bad enough to be vocal about.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    You see absolutely nothing wrong with pug healing a +5 having to put out the same amount of healing as an organized +15?
    I can just as easily say that I'm tanking in a pug +4 and I'm barely able to keep myself alive because healer stood in fire and is dead or his throughput is just low. Or the mobs take way too long to die because low dps and necrotic is stacking on me.
    Then in a good guild group I can pull more mobs on +8, can focus on my damage/positioning because the healers keeps me full no problem and everything dies in 20 seconds.

    "Why is it always tank that has to suffer and die in a weaker group?" It's not a role issue really.


    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    how to fix? make things take X% more damage after a stun/interrupt for a few seconds during/after?
    all of a sudden dps and tanks will be cycling through those.
    This would change nothing.
    People who don't care will still not care, people who are not yet experienced enough to play well even though they try their best will still be new.
    Good players already interrupt.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawthorne Wipes View Post
    That's something I can generally agree with.
    Couple of days ago I run a random heroic as a tank, and found the group kind enough to be talking with em the whole run.
    I complimented the shaman, because he was interrupting all the mobs casts, dropping the stunt totem whenever he could, standing behind the mobs, etcc..
    His response was that he was just used to do it in PvP.
    Interestingly enough, that's also the basis of where I learned to use stuns/interrupts, through PVPing back when. Kind of makes me wonder how common this is now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    most players are new and dont understand yet the benefit from locking down mobs with stuns, interurpts, etc., depending on party setup. I tried once explaining to a pug in arcway that after you get 5 stacks from the banshee, u need to chain interrupt so the stack resets and healer keeps up. clueless, all interrupting at once. My best success was couple weeks ago in MoS +8, necrotic and raging. 3 paladins couldnt understand why they need to stun mobs when they are low hp, but eventually learned.

    Arcway as an example - basically every mob casts some shit and half of it is unavoidable aoe. interrupts are 15-24s cd x5, which means you can save your healer literally millions of dmg he needs to heal. also basically any mob that casts a channel which is not a spell can be interrupted by ANY stun/disorient, e.g. gauge, holy priest(!) holyword-whatever.

    There were times when we were doing timed ZA runs and as a mage you had to spam sheep trolls to interrupt their casts. Pretty sure people dont even realize they can use CC in that way.
    That's probably true. I think the game does a piss poor job explaining like.. basically any even minorly advanced tactics of how the game works to the player. You pretty much have to go to third party websites to learn how to do almost anything right, and how to use almost all of your utility.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    This. If Blizzard are going to design around the fact that Boss Mods exist, more improvements need to be made baseline. Notifications to interrupt for players who just haven't learned that they can/need to is a good idea.
    The "you're standing in fire" effect on screen is also a great idea.
    I also agree with this. Might would also help if an interupt is cast on something that had just been interupted, it doesn't work, and doesn't expend the cooldown. (Just design encounters within reason, don't require something to be interupted 5 times in 5 seconds or something like that.)

    Also, if they're going to go that far with mechanics on general mobs, they really need to cover some of them in the dungeon journal as well. (Like, when I see someone getting chastized for not stacking on that one demon in Vault of the Wardens's meteor attack. How the hell are they supposed to know about that if you either A) don't tell them or B) they've done it before? I see it happen all the time too. People are real jackasses to new people. I try to tell people when I can think about it, about stuff like that.)

    In general, the dungeon journal could use a lot of small little things.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    You can punish bad players in ways other than making the healer suffer.
    Your suffering is self-inflicted, though. It's sort of "healer anxiety". We often blame ourselves for every death even when they're completely out of our hands, but we shouldn't. The problem isn't game mechanics. It's just the way you invest yourself in the game. You have to accept that not every player is going to behave the same way, and it's not a reflection of you as a healer when that happens. If a group wants to blame you for their DPS dying while standing in a fire, you have to wash your hands clean of it and move on.

    If you want smooth, even runs all the time you need to form a regular group of people you trust. If you decide to take a chance in a random group, you have to be prepared for virtually anything. There's really nothing Blizzard could do to "fix" this without simultaneously making healing completely pointless.

  17. #77
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    More often than not, people don't die within a GCD but they do die in a few seconds and multiple people in the group take damage and sometimes it is multiple people on the verge of dying because of how much damage AoE can do in mythics.
    Then it's a good thing most classes have a selfheal or reduction cooldown. But yes, when you reach mythic+ then people do die in a GCD and it's their responsibility to only take the damage they can't avoid. It's very simple

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    I am a healer. I enjoy healing. I hate that when I go into a group for a mythic or mythic+ I have no clue how much healing I will have to do. I hate that some pulls the group magically works well with their interrupts/cc and in other pulls it is non-existent. It feels like I have no way to predict how much damage will be coming in, so I have no way to preemptively use a cooldown I have to absolutely react to it (which feels pretty bad as a holy paladin since one of my major cooldowns reduces the CD of another ability... IFF that ability isn't already on CD). Some groups I can do mythic +4 and average 100-150k HPS over the entire run but another group in the same dungeon but regular mythic I'll have to average 250-300k HPS over the entire run. I understand there is personal responsibility it just feels like simply forcing a healer to heal more isn't the way to enforce the feeling of personal responsibility for the entire group.
    I think the best way to address this is to explain the fights a little before the pull. There are certain abilities to interrupt (many dps do not effectively use their interrupts) and there is also the ever famous- don't stand in that.. Some dps just que and have no idea about the fights, they just wing it.

    This problem is a by product of most of the grouping being based on ilevel. Gear is a poor indicator of player skill, especially so early in an expansion. think about it: some players can run five dungeons and get one upgrade, others get lucky and run one dungeon and get three pieces. Some people buy carries that include gear, especially with the mythic keystone thing. Then there is the whole gear randomly upgrading that brings even more luck into the equation.

    The best way to solve all this is to run mostly in guild or with people you know. Post a run on the guild calendar, read up on the fights before hand and give the dps a little direction before the pull (I need you guys to interupt "$$$$," it makes it really hard to heal you if you don't).

  19. #79
    Deleted
    Final Fantasy XIV implemented a great feature. A new player academy of sorts.
    It was 5 instanced scenarios where you would learn the basics of your role was.
    These where different depending on whether you where dps, tank or healer.
    One of the dps parts where using interrupts.
    The gear you got from doing these was the best you could get pre level 30 and you could do these at level 15.
    So there was great incentive to do them.
    This little thing basically made a lot of new players ready to play dungeons, and wow would benefit greatly from a similar system.

    Education is the key imo.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Sephakay View Post
    Final Fantasy XIV implemented a great feature. A new player academy of sorts.
    It was 5 instanced scenarios where you would learn the basics of your role was.
    These where different depending on whether you where dps, tank or healer.
    One of the dps parts where using interrupts.
    The gear you got from doing these was the best you could get pre level 30 and you could do these at level 15.
    So there was great incentive to do them.
    This little thing basically made a lot of new players ready to play dungeons, and wow would benefit greatly from a similar system.

    Education is the key imo.
    ye but FFXIV is and actual rpg not a f... raid &slotmachine

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