PvP Lost Some Meaning

[Reiziger]

I like the current system. I will never forget playing TSG in wrath with a warrior who only pvp'ed and thus lacked the sick epixx that raiding warriors had. Losing games/ mirrors where the other team had better gear but were obviously less good was NEVER fun.

The only thing I find missing in legion currently is something to work towards when it comes to rating. The top rewards from arena feel so unobtainable for the majority of people, and require so much investment that I see a lot of people just going 'fuck it'. They should either rework the rating requirements for the current rewards, or add new rewards that require lower ratings.

The pvp elite gear for example. It's badass, but the majority of players will never see it (also, im kinda wondering how that even works with the random drop system). Maybe make it so that after 1500 rating each 100 rating gives access to one of these pieces, if only for transmog. Start with lowby shit like the belt/ hands/feet and keep the prestigious stuff like weps/shoulders/ head higher up the foodchain.
The current 'gap' in rewards between 1500- 2200 is killing motivation among the casual fanbase.

[Deleted]

You haven't played many MMOs, have you? Because that's absolute bullshit.

His MMO knowledge doesn't go further than WoW just like 99% of the WoW playerbase...

[starlord]

The current 'gap' in rewards between 1500- 2200 is killing motivation among the casual fanbase.

yep, there is no point in trying to obtain any gear by getting rating when a wq proc will net you 875 boots.
there is also no point in it being so much more difficult to get gear in pvp than kicking squirrels.

as far as i can tell, they are killing pvp intentionally.

[klaps_05]

The solution for pvp has been simple for many years, but they will never implement it.

1) You enter arena, you get fixed stats, INCLUDING full artifact weapon, same talents as everyone, etc. Regardless of your gear, if you are max level, you get all the stats no matter your current ilevel.
2) Character progress - instead of making pvp gear with stats, go full cosmetic. Go mounts, go pets, go tabards, go flags like Prestige 3, go flying mounts, go weapon skins(like in overwatch), go LEAGUES, people wanna show off what they got from crushing others, not farm gear with points or pve.

In PVP, character progression is called RATING/RANKING. Nobody wants fucking gear progress - you wanna go in the arena and be equal to everyone, so you can focus on outplaying them, not outFARMING them. This way Mortal Strike will always hit for X amount(excl. talent available to all), Flash Heal will always heal for Y amount, etc. which makes it incredibly easy to balance with the new modifiers to spells in arena.

[starlord]

The solution for pvp has been simple for many years, but they will never implement it.

1) You enter arena, you get fixed stats, INCLUDING full artifact weapon, same talents as everyone, etc. Regardless of your gear, if you are max level, you get all the stats no matter your current ilevel.
2) Character progress - instead of making pvp gear with stats, go full cosmetic. Go mounts, go pets, go tabards, go flags like Prestige 3, go flying mounts, go weapon skins(like in overwatch), go LEAGUES, people wanna show off what they got from crushing others, not farm gear with points or pve.

In PVP, character progression is called RATING/RANKING. Nobody wants fucking gear progress - you wanna go in the arena and be equal to everyone, so you can focus on outplaying them, not outFARMING them. This way Mortal Strike will always hit for X amount(excl. talent available to all), Flash Heal will always heal for Y amount, etc. which makes it incredibly easy to balance with the new modifiers to spells in arena.

i think these are all great ideas. but. the problem arises that in the past, a person could focus mainly on pvp and be able to hold their own in wpvp, dungeons, and (lower difficulty) raids. that is no longer the case. and most people will indulge in a little bit of everything, so when kick squirrels or faceroll a heroic for 840+ gear, it becomes difficult to justify investing time in casual pvp for 20 bear butts instead.
at least before i knew i could farm honor for mounts or transmog or even progress my gear.

[Mafic]

In a way the stat template makes the game same as before. All that matters is itemlevel in instanced PvP so it does not matter if you win a Bracer or Trinket. They also added some bad luck protection so that your future drops will likely be in another slot.

HOWEVER:

PvP specific bonuses were removed altogether which makes PvE the best source for PvP power. It has higher itemlevel so the PvP stat template is increased further with endgame PvE gear (or lucky Emissary Legendaries).

Plus, PvE has always special Effects Set Bonuses, Trinkets etc. so this time PvE gear is stronger than Ever in World PvP. Even if you are Gladiator with considerable ilvl, but there is literally no chance to beat PvE Trinkets, Examples:

Damage + 5 Sec Stun on use (plus normally budgeted stats)

50% (!) Leech

Auto-Silence Attackers passively with 20Sec CD.

Big Absorb Shield that when broken bursts for massive damage.

Chance to Stun

The List goes on.

There is no streak breaker in gearing. Blizzard lied again. Because how are people getting back to back to back trinkets as as drops? Worst part of all is that PVP trinkets can't be used in instanced PVP and they are inferior to most PVE trinkets anyways.

- - - Updated - - -

yep, there is no point in trying to obtain any gear by getting rating when a wq proc will net you 875 boots.
there is also no point in it being so much more difficult to get gear in pvp than kicking squirrels.

as far as i can tell, they are killing pvp intentionally.

It is intentional as their fee fees were hurt that more players did PVP than PVE as entry level gearing.

[Alanar]

most frustarting thing for me is ( playing shadow) getting more haste and stuff and then I get into a bg and my casts feel super slow and shit.. it's so annoying. 1.25 sec cast on stuff and without I am on like 1 sec cast for mindblasts and VT.

Damn scaling makes it feel horrible when entering a bg.

[Deleted]

its just Blizzard once again trying to force all players to play their "amazinggg!!" new pve content because otherwise you make them sad. This expansion is even a huge hand holding PVE wise, you cannot level up with dungeons or pvp or mob grinding, all of it was nerfed to oblivion just so people are forced,once again, to play the on-rails system they want with their stupid world quests Santa Claus things. Its just like stupid Ashran, developer X creates his new toy he is so proud of even though its bad, developer X sees that players don't care, Blizzard nerfs everything else so that we have to do it because its the most efficient way and everyone will do it otherwise they are left behind. I really feel like they see their customers like laboratory rats, where they just turn off the light of several paths and just turn on the light very brightly in one place only to attract the rat to one specific path. So much for freedom in a "mmorpg" ...

[Fkiolaris]

The solution for pvp has been simple for many years, but they will never implement it.

1) You enter arena, you get fixed stats, INCLUDING full artifact weapon, same talents as everyone, etc. Regardless of your gear, if you are max level, you get all the stats no matter your current ilevel.
2) Character progress - instead of making pvp gear with stats, go full cosmetic. Go mounts, go pets, go tabards, go flags like Prestige 3, go flying mounts, go weapon skins(like in overwatch), go LEAGUES, people wanna show off what they got from crushing others, not farm gear with points or pve.

In PVP, character progression is called RATING/RANKING. Nobody wants fucking gear progress - you wanna go in the arena and be equal to everyone, so you can focus on outplaying them, not outFARMING them. This way Mortal Strike will always hit for X amount(excl. talent available to all), Flash Heal will always heal for Y amount, etc. which makes it incredibly easy to balance with the new modifiers to spells in arena.

GW2 has a system like you mention, but even they had to put rewards and reward-paths in because the vast majority of people playing pvp in such MMOs are also spending considerable amount of time doing PvE content as well, where gear does matter. As such, if all the rewards in pvp were trivial/cosmetic, the players would feel more and more inclined to engage in the activity that does reward them "better".

By all means, I am with you 100% on the "everything equal for everyone when pvping", but you have to have the meaningful rewards in there as well simply because pvp does not exist in isolation and your player-base is not doing doing pvp exclusively.

[klaps_05]

GW2 has a system like you mention, but even they had to put rewards and reward-paths in because the vast majority of people playing pvp in such MMOs are also spending considerable amount of time doing PvE content as well, where gear does matter. As such, if all the rewards in pvp were trivial/cosmetic, the players would feel more and more inclined to engage in the activity that does reward them "better".

By all means, I am with you 100% on the "everything equal for everyone when pvping", but you have to have the meaningful rewards in there as well simply because pvp does not exist in isolation and your player-base is not doing doing pvp exclusively.

if you do pvp and want to dabble in pve, noone stops your pve progression as its quite flexible atm. the problem with pvp is that there is dmg difference(0.1% 1% 10% doesnt matter, if it aint equal, it aint equal) and there are 0 incentives - in total just a couple rewards excluding glad/r1 mounts and title. people want to excel in pve, excel in pvp, have all pets, complete all quests, roleplay in goldshire, how about making a choice? and if u want to do more, dedicate more hours. and suddenly if one expansion lasts 2 years no one will complain.

from a pve standpoint, you will have to learn how to pvp and your skill will build up
from a pvp standpoint, you will have to get gear in order to do hardest content

[Fkiolaris]

if you do pvp and want to dabble in pve, noone stops your pve progression as its quite flexible atm. the problem with pvp is that there is dmg difference(0.1% 1% 10% doesnt matter, if it aint equal, it aint equal) and there are 0 incentives - in total just a couple rewards excluding glad/r1 mounts and title. people want to excel in pve, excel in pvp, have all pets, complete all quests, roleplay in goldshire, how about making a choice? and if u want to do more, dedicate more hours. and suddenly if one expansion lasts 2 years no one will complain.

from a pve standpoint, you will have to learn how to pvp and your skill will build up
from a pvp standpoint, you will have to get gear in order to do hardest content

You are viewing this from a very wrong perspective. As a casual who has done both casual pvp (random BGs only, I hate arena) and casual pve (5-mans, LFR and pugging base-difficulty raids when that was a thing in WotLK) I consider myself to be good enough and dedicated enough for that level to expect some sort of compensation and character progression. I never aspired to be a gladiator or a mythic raider, but my point is that I shouldn't be in order to get rewards. This is a game and people are playing it to have fun, not a second job. So telling people in effect to "go pro or go home" if they want rewards that cross between the two elements (pvp and pve) is a massive mistake that will make a lot of people abandon pvp, just like it's happening now.

[klaps_05]

I never aspired to be a gladiator or a mythic raider, but my point is that I shouldn't be in order to get rewards.

Yet when we had this system the game had the most ppl, bar other major factors. and thats kind of the point of an MMORPG - it never "dies" so you have all the time in the world to get everything you want. but the playerbase itself has turned extremely casual so that model doesnt work anymore unfortunately.

[Deleted]

The main problem with PvP for a long time is that it does not feel rewarding at all. It might be an unpopular opinion but i think that a guy who plays 6-12 hours of pvp per day should absolutely roflstomp a guy who plays none to 2 hours of pvp gameplay. If i'm hitting a guy who is 20 ilvls lower than me like a ramen to the face, then what's the point?

And you will, if you dont suck. You spent 6 time as mucn time as him learning how to do it, or atleast you should have learned how to beat him with 6 times as much experience.

[Appelgren]

so which mmos besides guild wars 2 have this "equal footing" pvp?

To be fair he said "PVP" and not specifically "MMO-PVP". Try to be a little more open minded

[solarfallz]

To be fair he said "PVP" and not specifically "MMO-PVP". Try to be a little more open minded

So you're saying that when he says "PVP is about [X]" what he actually means is "PVP in other genres of games is sometimes about [X]". Communication seems to be a real issue in this place.

[Deleted]

yep, there is no point in trying to obtain any gear by getting rating when a wq proc will net you 875 boots.
there is also no point in it being so much more difficult to get gear in pvp than kicking squirrels.

as far as i can tell, they are killing pvp intentionally.

You know that pvp rewards can also be warforged or titanforged right? Easier to get 875 shit from rated pvp than world quests, and even better if you get some rating.

[Dragoncurry]

So "it's equal footing once you eventually get the same gear" is your argument here? WoW PVP was N E V E R about "equal footing". Skill and gear are not mutually exclusive. I understand that it's hard for some players who comprehend that people might want to both outgear AND outplay people (presumably because you blame all your losses on gear therefore it can NEVER be skill if there's also gear!), but that's basically how WoW PVP has been for 12 years and trying to change that is a great way to screw over players who enjoyed PVP for the past decade or so.

When being fully geared vs. being in greens is like 100+ Itemlevels, and a 50000000000% increase in stats, yes, it is due to gear and not skill.

Now you get to skip that step (aka being farmed while you're in greens for 10000 bgs), and just get to the step where you're already near your opponent, and the only factor remaining is skill.

I don't fucking understand the confusion. Your argument is that WoW PvP is about skill AND farming people in greens. Congratulations, I'm glad farming people in greens is rewarding for you and literally no one else, FOR EXAMPLE THE PERSON BEING FARMED. Why would you NOT change this garbage ass method that's been in place.

[solarfallz]

When being fully geared vs. being in greens is like 100+ Itemlevels, and a 50000000000% increase in stats, yes, it is due to gear and not skill.

Now you get to skip that step (aka being farmed while you're in greens for 10000 bgs), and just get to the step where you're already near your opponent, and the only factor remaining is skill.

I don't fucking understand the confusion. Your argument is that WoW PvP is about skill AND farming people in greens. Congratulations, I'm glad farming people in greens is rewarding for you and literally no one else, FOR EXAMPLE THE PERSON BEING FARMED. Why would you NOT change this garbage ass method that's been in place.

Because it's fun to use the gear you earned. It's fun to be able to customize your character and gear it to your playstyle. Most of all, it's fun to kill other players.

Admittedly the current ability/class design (ever since around Wrath times, really) makes it more difficult to overcome gear disparity than it was in the first couple eras of the game, but that's more an issue with the classes and scaling themselves; the solution isn't to just remove gear from PVP, that's a textbook "cut off your nose to spite your face" solution.

[Deleted]

Except for all those white men. The ones who were lucky to be born white and have penises, I mean. Then, luck has a great deal to do with it.

White men born in south afrika got killed for being white. The homeless ones aren't doing well either here, what you really want is western middle class and higher.

[Fkiolaris]

Yet when we had this system the game had the most ppl, bar other major factors. and thats kind of the point of an MMORPG - it never "dies" so you have all the time in the world to get everything you want. but the playerbase itself has turned extremely casual so that model doesnt work anymore unfortunately.

The game had the most people in WotLK and if my memory serves me right they had rating requirements on part of the gear which made a tremendous difference (especially the weapon). That lead to very low participation in pvp which forced the devs to remove any such requirements half way through the expansion. I would consider that to be very much in favour of my argument.

If I remember it incorrectly then please feel free to correct me.