Mythic+ AOE

**joe2887** · 2016-10-10, 03:04 AM

I just cant grasp the opening sequence of this. My DPS is lackluster atm. Ranging from 200-300k

Usually open with LB>ROP>PF>FB>FB(3 or less)/Flamestrike(4 or more)> Dragon Breath

Cant post char but due to post count

Hephaestüs
Stormrage
849 iLvl

**Toas** · 2016-10-10, 03:41 AM

For 3+ targets, dragon's breath should be higher on your priority list. Use it right after you drop your RoP down to get it on CD ASAP. Unless, of course, you want to save it to interrupt casts, which is totally viable in multiple dungeons depending on your group comp.

Don't use Flamestrike on 4+ targets. The correct number to use it on is like 8+ or so. This likely will drop a little once you get the Aftershocks trait, but probably to no less than 7, possibly 6. (Caveat: it can also be correct to use it if there's a bunch of mobs (even <8) that are all about to die, as your pyroblast's ignite won't have time to spread+tick on all of them. Although this should probably only be done if the Hot Streak will expire before you pull the next pack, otherwise you're better off just pyro'ing the next pack with your Hot Streak.)

200k-300k is fine for 849 i-lvl anyway, especially depending on exactly which mythic+ level you're doing. If you're going slow and safely and only doing 1 pack at a time, that's about how much a fire mage is gonna do. It's only a bit low if you're doing huge pulls where you're able to get lots of LB explosions and ignite spreading.

Edit: Oh also something to remember - you want to be using Combustion constantly. Don't just save it for bosses - it doesn't matter in mythic+ unless you're having difficulty getting the boss down in really high mythic+ levels. Killing the trash fast is just as important as killing the boss fast. You want to get as many combustion usages in during the dungeon as possible. Of course, do be smart with it still - don't use it on a pack that's going to die in 5 seconds.

**joe2887** · 2016-10-10, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by Toas

For 3+ targets, dragon's breath should be higher on your priority list. Use it right after you drop your RoP down to get it on CD ASAP. Unless, of course, you want to save it to interrupt casts, which is totally viable in multiple dungeons depending on your group comp.

Don't use Flamestrike on 4+ targets. The correct number to use it on is like 8+ or so. This likely will drop a little once you get the Aftershocks trait, but probably to no less than 7, possibly 6. (Caveat: it can also be correct to use it if there's a bunch of mobs (even <8) that are all about to die, as your pyroblast's ignite won't have time to spread+tick on all of them. Although this should probably only be done if the Hot Streak will expire before you pull the next pack, otherwise you're better off just pyro'ing the next pack with your Hot Streak.)

200k-300k is fine for 849 i-lvl anyway, especially depending on exactly which mythic+ level you're doing. If you're going slow and safely and only doing 1 pack at a time, that's about how much a fire mage is gonna do. It's only a bit low if you're doing huge pulls where you're able to get lots of LB explosions and ignite spreading.

Edit: Oh also something to remember - you want to be using Combustion constantly. Don't just save it for bosses - it doesn't matter in mythic+ unless you're having difficulty getting the boss down in really high mythic+ levels. Killing the trash fast is just as important as killing the boss fast. You want to get as many combustion usages in during the dungeon as possible. Of course, do be smart with it still - don't use it on a pack that's going to die in 5 seconds.

Thanks a ton for your answer, I will definitely start using DB much sooner

Deleted · 2016-10-10, 03:57 AM

also you wont do super amazing aoe dps without also using combust.

there is a lot of debate about what you use for aoe, some say flamestrike is perfectly fine to use on 3+ targets while others say 8+ targets and you should use pyroblast when there isnt 8+ targets and apparently there is math that support both, another thing that supports the "use flamestrike on 3+ targets" camp is that it puts up ignites on all targets right away, increasing the return on your phoenix reborn.

personally im in the "use FS on 3+ targets" camp myself bcoz that is what gives me the best results atm and i simply havent seen any real evidence that 8+ is the way to go, especially when you consider that the sims that support the 8+ are apparently made up of targets that doesnt actually die while i have seen the math that supports the 3+ thing and it looks solid, problem is that 1 of the camps has to be wrong and they are mindlessly following the math and sims of some1, rather than do it themselves or testing in-game where it actually matters.

**sosaria** · 2016-10-10, 04:42 AM

**whisperingsage** · 2016-10-10, 06:37 AM

For the longest time I had heard the 8+, and now I'm hearing 4+ from a lot of places.

Did you happen to have any log comparisons to the standard rotation? How many mobs are you using FS on?

Deleted · 2016-10-10, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by whisperingsage

For the longest time I had heard the 8+, and now I'm hearing 4+ from a lot of places.

Did you happen to have any log comparisons to the standard rotation? How many mobs are you using FS on?

Well, I can tell you this, FS on ~4 targets results in 300-350k dps per pull, which is extremely low. This, using the LB-RoP-PF-FB-FS rotation.

Considering the fact that I can combust every other trash pull, I personally rather do that and burst ~900k which result in nigh instant death of trash.

In our pivate group, the tank makes greater pulls (~10 mobs), which instantly increases FS value. In that case, I do use FS.

**whisperingsage** · 2016-10-10, 07:00 AM

So then did you go for Aftershocks, or Blast Furnace?

Deleted · 2016-10-10, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by whisperingsage

So then did you go for Aftershocks, or Blast Furnace?

Blast Furnace.

**iddqd** · 2016-10-10, 07:26 AM

@sosaria:

Slight correction: maybe you want to use Dragonsbreath before your second set of PF-FB-Flamestrike, as you get in on cooldown where the former spells are already cooling down.

Deleted · 2016-10-10, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by mascarpwn

Well, I can tell you this, FS on ~4 targets results in 300-350k dps per pull, which is extremely low. This, using the LB-RoP-PF-FB-FS rotation.

Considering the fact that I can combust every other trash pull, I personally rather do that and burst ~900k which result in nigh instant death of trash.

In our pivate group, the tank makes greater pulls (~10 mobs), which instantly increases FS value. In that case, I do use FS.

thats only if you dont use RoP or combust tho and will be significantly more when you use said cds. also 900k burst is a bit on the lowside for me when using FS imo but i think that has more to do with the fact i have the legendary helm which is insane for aoe.

Deleted · 2016-10-10, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by almara2512

thats only if you dont use RoP or combust tho and will be significantly more when you use said cds. also 900k burst is a bit on the lowside for me when using FS imo but i think that has more to do with the fact i have the legendary helm which is insane for aoe.

I do use RoP. Not using combustion was the whole point. If I do that, I burst over 2mil.

Deleted · 2016-10-10, 08:41 PM

There is no controversy on Flamestrike. It's just that the numbers are fuzzy because few to no people actually run simulations on it. The very general gist of it is that if your Ignite is going to run out soon because the targets will die soon then Flame Strike becomes much more powerful. If you have multiple targets that will stay up for the entire duration of Ignite, you will need a lot of targets to make Flame Strike worth it. If you need minute details on it like exact number of targets or what happens when Ignite will tick but only for a portion of the time you'll have to run some simulations with multiple periodically spawning targets.

**kheath812** · 2016-10-10, 09:07 PM

every top mage flamestrikes on 4+ targets. the 8-9+ math was and is just wrong. id sooner follow the advice and play of mages who parse #1 on pretty much everything in every expansion over someone who just likes to play with math and fake scenarios. sims are almost never actually correct for anything.

Deleted · 2016-10-10, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by kheath812

every top mage flamestrikes on 4+ targets. the 8-9+ math was and is just wrong. id sooner follow the advice and play of mages who parse #1 on pretty much everything in every expansion over someone who just likes to play with math and fake scenarios. sims are almost never actually correct for anything.

That's condescending bullshit. To be better to use Flamestrike on 3 or 4 targets that will last long enough for Ignite to fully tick, you need Flame Patch which nobody takes. The reason you see 3-4 targets getting Flamestrikes is that many 5mans have targets that will die very soon before Ignite can fully tick. Or at least I hope that's what you're seeing. Otherwise those are not "top mages".

**kheath812** · 2016-10-10, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Curnivore

That's condescending bullshit. To be better to use Flamestrike on 3 or 4 targets that will last long enough for Ignite to fully tick, you need Flame Patch which nobody takes. The reason you see 3-4 targets getting Flamestrikes is that many 5mans have targets that will die very soon before Ignite can fully tick. Or at least I hope that's what you're seeing. Otherwise those are not "top mages".

rikh, xyronic, and lexi all say to flamestrike on 4+ targets no matter what. ill take their word.

Deleted · 2016-10-10, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by kheath812

rikh, xyronic, and lexi all say to flamestrike on 4+ targets no matter what.

I don't know if those people are infallible like you believe but I would not be surprised if you just put words in their mouths that they never said.

Deleted · 2016-10-11, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by Curnivore

I don't know if those people are infallible like you believe but I would not be surprised if you just put words in their mouths that they never said.

except in this case, they have actually said it, well i cant tell if rikh or lexi has but i know for certain that xyronic has and based on my own results im inclined to agree. also what makes you think that the person that made the statement about FS on 8+ targets is infallible?

**alucardtnuoc** · 2016-10-11, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by almara2512

except in this case, they have actually said it, well i cant tell if rikh or lexi has but i know for certain that xyronic has and based on my own results im inclined to agree. also what makes you think that the person that made the statement about FS on 8+ targets is infallible?

That's not the point Curnivore is arguing though, they are saying FS value may change based on the length the targets live for. Which is a valid question and something people may be ignoring.

**Wenoxar** · 2016-10-11, 04:03 AM

@almara2512

Do you even play this game and/or mage? If you did then you know that you don't wanna flamestrike on 3-4 targets.

Just go to dungeon and use flamestrike on your 3-4 targets. And your DPS will be miserable.

You don't use flamestrike on 3-4 targets.

Everything what @Curnivore said was correct.

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