The more I play my mage alt, the more annoyed I get.

[SpikeySquad]

Seems like it is time for RVD to reroll

[Deleted]

"tankier" than mage not a tank. Don't expect to be horribly broken like destro was during MOP. I've played the class at that time, it had so many ridiculous advantages besides mobility.
And I don't see many ranged classes that are tankier than a warlock currently. Maybe Moonkin against pure physical damage

Mages iceblok is not being tanky, its a "emergency button", it doesn't provide mages with consistent self sustain. The only good thing is their shield which has 30 seconds cooldown, they can't evocate/heal anymore.

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Its a common tactic in subforums about classes. People who have their mind fixed on hating their class and secretly wish to FOTM to some DH or mage just ask for opinions in hope that everyone agrees with them and start raging when they get diverging opinions. Confirmation bias at its best.

Coming from the guy who doesn't even play a warlock. Seriously, stay out of a thread if you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't see me barging in to other class forums to tell them how everything about their class is perfect and they are just morons who are bad at the game.

Healthstones are worse than healing potions. Soulstone cast time is too long / unjustifiable. Not having an interrupt in the vast majority of cases is unjustifiable. Our tankiness makes it a bit easier on healers, but if a mechanic requires ice block (Or something similar) to cheese, our tankiness won't do anything.

Edit: And about soulstone being able to skip packs: Invis pot can do the same, a consumable, and it actually does it better. I doubt rogues would be just fine if a readily available consumable could be used to get on demand stealth. Or vanish / feign death. Drums are strictly worse than heroism. Why can't our healthstone be on par with healing potions then? Why can't we have instant CR like every other CR class? Why can't we have an interrupt like everyone else?

[Auracle]

So you made a post asking people why take a warlock, they give you points and then you just argue every single post? Stay with the mage, no one gives a shit.

This post is worthless, good job.

Well, no. Not at all. He made a post looking for opinions, with his own opinion prepared ahead of time .. which is 100% normal human behaviour. From what I've read, I think most of his responses have been reasonably well supported by facts, and then overlaid with his playstyle preference. TL;DR He prefers mage playstyle over warlocks.

What he's posited is that mages are objectively better in a mythic progression environment. I think he's probably correct on balance, but these are reasonably small margins we're talking about. We can see from aggregate data that mages on average do more damage, which is fine. As several posters have pointed out, this is always true for someone and there's little sense becoming upset because warlocks aren't near the top. Small margins.
The utility arguments, in raid, are largely moot.

For my two cents, I'm thoroughly enjoying warlock. I miss the WoD paradigm but have adjusted to the new style and am having a ton of fun.

M+ dungeons... well, we can be pretty amazing, but compared to a mage I'd say we lose there. This is very true for a ton of classes and specs though, so while you can be jelly of the mages, that doesn't mean you should be pissy with your warlock. It's still awesome, just not as much. Destro is shittons of fun to play in mythic plus and has a really great balance of AoE/Cleave/ST if you run BD/RE/SF/FnB/x/Sac/WH build.

[Deleted]

Lets see
1. raid wide mobilety in form of gateway
2. free healthstones for the raid
3. Combat res.
4. location based blink if demonic circle is chosen
5. spells castable on the go depends on spec and talents
Demo: demonwrath, (shadowflame talent), (implosion talent), and some summons.
Affliction: Corruptio, Agony, (siphone life talent), (phantom singularity talent), and again certain summons.
Destro: Conflagrate, Rain of Fire, (shadowburn talent), and again certain summons.
6. summoning portal.

And while iceblock sure is stronger on a pure defensive view, it locks you up for the duration and stops you from doing anything while it lasts

to be fair (the way it is in my guild)

1. True it's good on some encounters!
2. We use health potions. They heal for more.
3. Warlock Combat ress is actually the worst with cast time. The instant brezz of other classes are better
4. ...
5. If there is one thing warlock is lacking then it is stuff to do while moving. Especially outside of talents and cooldowns.
6. Helpful yes. Though no real benefit in combat.

[Deleted]

Strange how I find you have an even bigger case of class hate than the OP. Every other post I see you barging in and saying warlocks were broken in some xpac and such. Do you have some kind of grudge against warlocks that you feel the compulsion to "shut down" any warlock complaint whether valid or not?

Warlock "tankiness" is an illusion. Any raid mechanic that obliterates DPS will also obliterate Warlocks. That "tankiness" doesn't do shit when you still get one shot by mechanics that matter. The name of the game in competitive raid content is evasion and immunity spells. It is also non-existent in PVP where melee absolutely blow up warlocks, and melee even prefer to seek out warlocks in BGs first because they have few escape mechanisms.

Oh look another case of illusory victimization "my class is the worst "i should be like " "i should be this and that" "i get targeted all the time in pvp whine whine"

That last sentence was the very reason why I criticize the warlock community so much. You are the worst bunch of childish whiners there is in the game, aside from the rogue community. You think that other casters are not miserable in pvp too aside from frost mages? Get your shit together man and start realizing that you are not the only class in the game with issues. Even some melee suck at pvp but how is that relevant to raiding? You are literally cherry picking any aspect of the game that could support your argument of "warlocks being the worst class".

Then let us finish with your brilliant proof of ignorance regarding PVE mechanics. You are not playing around "one shot mechanics", if you get one shot you and your raid are doing something wrong. You know how many dps classes have immunity spells ? Lets see: rogue, mage, hunter and paladin. So that means by your logic that every class with no such spell is just dead weight in the raid? What a marvelous illustration of misinformation at best.

Whining, misinformation to adjust your agenda (me wanna buff basically), disregarding any person contradicting your echo chamber of tears is the reasons why I don't appreciate threads like this. But rest assured, even if warlocks are the whiniest bunch, all classes are full of clueless whiners, the forums are full of it while good players actually play the game and prove you wrong.

[Reaper11b]

Well, no. Not at all. He made a post looking for opinions, with his own opinion prepared ahead of time .. which is 100% normal human behaviour. From what I've read, I think most of his responses have been reasonably well supported by facts, and then overlaid with his playstyle preference. TL;DR He prefers mage playstyle over warlocks.

What he's posited is that mages are objectively better in a mythic progression environment. I think he's probably correct on balance, but these are reasonably small margins we're talking about. We can see from aggregate data that mages on average do more damage, which is fine. As several posters have pointed out, this is always true for someone and there's little sense becoming upset because warlocks aren't near the top. Small margins.
The utility arguments, in raid, are largely moot.

For my two cents, I'm thoroughly enjoying warlock. I miss the WoD paradigm but have adjusted to the new style and am having a ton of fun.

M+ dungeons... well, we can be pretty amazing, but compared to a mage I'd say we lose there. This is very true for a ton of classes and specs though, so while you can be jelly of the mages, that doesn't mean you should be pissy with your warlock. It's still awesome, just not as much. Destro is shittons of fun to play in mythic plus and has a really great balance of AoE/Cleave/ST if you run BD/RE/SF/FnB/x/Sac/WH build.

Arguing using his opinions and preferences are not facts. Pretty much every response from him was "no your wrong, stop saying x is actually good".

And how can you think he's looking for other opinions? He's made up his mind that mages are better so why does this post even exist?

[corebit]

Healthstones are worse than healing potions. Soulstone cast time is too long / unjustifiable. Not having an interrupt in the vast majority of cases is unjustifiable. Our tankiness makes it a bit easier on healers, but if a mechanic requires ice block (Or something similar) to cheese, our tankiness won't do anything.

There are many valid complaints in your post, but this is not one of them. Healthstones now scale with our health. They may not heal as much as potions right now but as we get better and better gear and our health continues to rise healthstones will outscale potions. Eventually everyone will go back to eating their favorite green candy.

Well, no. Not at all. He made a post looking for opinions, with his own opinion prepared ahead of time .. which is 100% normal human behaviour. From what I've read, I think most of his responses have been reasonably well supported by facts, and then overlaid with his playstyle preference. TL;DR He prefers mage playstyle over warlocks.

What he's posited is that mages are objectively better in a mythic progression environment. I think he's probably correct on balance, but these are reasonably small margins we're talking about. We can see from aggregate data that mages on average do more damage, which is fine. As several posters have pointed out, this is always true for someone and there's little sense becoming upset because warlocks aren't near the top. Small margins.
The utility arguments, in raid, are largely moot.

For my two cents, I'm thoroughly enjoying warlock. I miss the WoD paradigm but have adjusted to the new style and am having a ton of fun.

M+ dungeons... well, we can be pretty amazing, but compared to a mage I'd say we lose there. This is very true for a ton of classes and specs though, so while you can be jelly of the mages, that doesn't mean you should be pissy with your warlock. It's still awesome, just not as much. Destro is shittons of fun to play in mythic plus and has a really great balance of AoE/Cleave/ST if you run BD/RE/SF/FnB/x/Sac/WH build.

To be fair to mages, only fire is in a good spot right now in Mythic+. Their other two specs are languishing behind fire just like our non-destro specs. And since fire is in such a good spot right now, the only place it can move from now onwards is down. And historically, fire's dominance over the span of an expansion has always been short-lived.

[Jessicka]

Why not both?

People here are looking at different places entirely, so it's kind of useless advice anyway to say something like 'Demo has a stun', either because the person asking is talking about raiding, or because a Frost Mage has an AoE root on their pet. Both are either irrelevant or useful in entirely different situations. It does come down a lot to what you want to do and why you want to do it, with a side of personal preference.

Personally, I do think both Mage and SPriest are better than Warlocks overall. I find Warlock right now a bit clunky and a bit slow. There's just a lack of polish there in everything; superfluous mechanics that exist for the sake of filling boxes, many with a lot of RNG and waiting around as a consequence. A cursory contrast of Artifacts, and while Mages' are full of 'makes this happen more often/bigger/last longer/ be more impressive'; Warlocks' seem to have a lot of 'can make this happen, sometimes, under these conditions, eventually'. That's where you get bogged down in ramp up which often don't have a chance to happen; and in most cases has no real gameplay impact anyway other than to make you feel/look bad until it does.

Sure, SPriest has Void Form, but kind of like Meta in old Demo, its ramp up but its reliable, expected and you're built around it. The Warlock ramp feels more extraneous rather than a central function, because so much of it is mostly irrelevant and eclipsed by other decisions. In either case, the result is that both Mage and SPriest can do what you want them to do when you want to do it more reliably - and that's why for me they come out ahead.

[Deleted]

Oh look another case of illusory victimization "my class is the worst "i should be like " "i should be this and that" "i get targeted all the time in pvp whine whine"

That last sentence was the very reason why I criticize the warlock community so much. You are the worst bunch of childish whiners there is in the game, aside from the rogue community. You think that other casters are not miserable in pvp too aside from frost mages? Get your shit together man and start realizing that you are not the only class in the game with issues. Even some melee suck at pvp but how is that relevant to raiding? You are literally cherry picking any aspect of the game that could support your argument of "warlocks being the worst class".

Then let us finish with your brilliant proof of ignorance regarding PVE mechanics. You are not playing around "one shot mechanics", if you get one shot you and your raid are doing something wrong. You know how many dps classes have immunity spells ? Lets see: rogue, mage, hunter and paladin. So that means by your logic that every class with no such spell is just dead weight in the raid? What a marvelous illustration of misinformation at best.

Whining, misinformation to adjust your agenda (me wanna buff basically), disregarding any person contradicting your echo chamber of tears is the reasons why I don't appreciate threads like this. But rest assured, even if warlocks are the whiniest bunch, all classes are full of clueless whiners, the forums are full of it while good players actually play the game and prove you wrong.

The point is that the other classes get mobility, we get tankiness. Tankiness makes you slightly easier to heal when things are done right, but it won't help you against things you need to avoid (Which is where mobility helps), and at the same time some of the "squishy" ranged can cheese it WHILE getting mobility (mage and hunter).

And you still haven't explained how it is fair / good design that warlocks need to sacrifice a bunch of personal DPS + jump through hoops to have an interrupt, when no other spec has to. And you haven't explained why healthstones should heal less than healing potions, in a world where drums are worse than heroism. Last but not least, you haven't explained why warlock CR as the only one should have a 3 sec cast time. I would love to remove the "upside" of soulstone (Placing it on a living person), if it meant having an instant cast soulstone instead.

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There are many valid complaints in your post, but this is not one of them. Healthstones now scale with our health. They may not heal as much as potions right now but as we get better and better gear and our health continues to rise healthstones will outscale potions. Eventually everyone will go back to eating their favorite green candy.

I keep seeing people say this, but I haven't seen any proof yet. I'm literally in game right now, and it heals 360k, just like it did when I dinged 110, and my HP has no effect at all on the amount of HP I heal from a healthstone.

Edit: I have a feeling that it probably scales off base HP, which means that it won't scale to be better than healing potions. May be better for tanks though.

[corebit]

I keep seeing people say this, but I haven't seen any proof yet. I'm literally in game right now, and it heals 360k, just like it did when I dinged 110, and my HP has no effect at all on the amount of HP I heal from a healthstone.

Of course, right now we have only around 2 million HP for decently geared DPS but Tanks can already see the difference. Once Karazhan/Nighthold opens and everyone is around 2.5M~3M HP then healthstones will be better.

[Unlockmyhrt]

Which is not much really, so why promote the tankiness when it sucks.

420k Absorb Shield and 2 On demand Cooldowns, that is huge during mythic progression and pushing mythic +'s. Its night and day compared to my other casters and the survivability and how much damage I absorb on Mythics and Mythic + is insane

[Deleted]

Of course, right now we have only around 2 million HP for decently geared DPS but Tanks can already see the difference. Once Karazhan/Nighthold opens and everyone is around 2.5M~3M HP then healthstones will be better.

No, it literally doesn't change no matter how much your HP changes. At least it doesn't for me, so either it is bugged for me, or it works differently.

[Jessicka]

Of course, right now we have only around 2 million HP for decently geared DPS but Tanks can already see the difference. Once Karazhan/Nighthold opens and everyone is around 2.5M~3M HP then healthstones will be better.

Healthstones heal for 352942 health. Fixed amount according to the tooltip on wowhead, and its fixed on wowdb too. Hasn't been % based for a very long time now; I don't know where you're getting your information?

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420k Absorb Shield and 2 On demand Cooldowns, that is huge during mythic progression and pushing mythic +'s. Its night and day compared to my other casters and the survivability and how much damage I absorb on Mythics and Mythic + is insane

Toss up between SPriest and Warlock for survivability to be honest, both are tougher and more forgiving than Mage though.

[Felrok]

I keep seeing people say this, but I haven't seen any proof yet. I'm literally in game right now, and it heals 360k, just like it did when I dinged 110, and my HP has no effect at all on the amount of HP I heal from a healthstone.

Edit: I have a feeling that it probably scales off base HP, which means that it won't scale to be better than healing potions. May be better for tanks though.

I have 2m HP, and mine heals for 350k, which is about 18% of my max HP. This seems like an odd percentage to set health stones to heal at, its much more likely that it heals for 25% of base HP, which would mean base HP would have to be around 1.4m, I have no idea if that is actually the case though.

[Deleted]

Why not both?

People here are looking at different places entirely, so it's kind of useless advice anyway to say something like 'Demo has a stun', either because the person asking is talking about raiding, or because a Frost Mage has an AoE root on their pet. Both are either irrelevant or useful in entirely different situations. It does come down a lot to what you want to do and why you want to do it, with a side of personal preference.

EDIT: This is purely a mythic guild progress discussion. Be it raids or mythic+

Just as an example this week with bolstering, having aoe stun and felguard stun (in case of demo) was much more usefull than having a silence. Ofc for raids all this is irrelevant, but in raids the only exclusive things that warlock and mage brings are Gateway (lock) and food (mage)..so ye...which is more usefull?

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[Jessicka]

Just as an example this week with bolstering, having aoe stun and felguard stun (in case of demo) was much more usefull than having a silence. Ofc for raids all this is irrelevant, but in raids the only exclusive things that warlock and mage brings are Gateway (lock) and food (mage)..so ye...which is more usefull?

I compared the pet stun, to the pet root... not the silence. But SPriest has an instant cast AoE stun as well as silence if that's what you meant?

[Deleted]

So you made a post asking people why take a warlock, they give you points and then you just argue every single post? Stay with the mage, no one gives a shit.

This post is worthless, good job.

And this is /thread.

[Duckz0rs]

Regarding the Soulstone: keep in mind it's getting changed in 7.1 according to patch notes. It'll be instant cast while in combat and otherwise stay the same.

It's easy to check if Healthstones heal for a fixed rate or percentual; use one with and without gear, or use one and ask your tank to use one. At the moment I can't test it myself unfortunately. At some point in beta it was % (I believe 20) again, but I'm not sure if they kept that or reverted it to a fixed number.

[Felrok]

I compared the pet stun, to the pet root... not the silence. But SPriest has an instant cast AoE stun as well as silence if that's what you meant?

The aoe stun, Mind Bomb, is instant cast but doesn't stun until 2 seconds after the cast. It's a bit more difficult to set up than our Shadowfury.

Regarding the Soulstone: keep in mind it's getting changed in 7.1 according to patch notes. It'll be instant cast while in combat and otherwise stay the same.

People in the PTR are saying that this is not the case, I haven't tested it myself, but I wouldn't trust datamined information.

[Duckz0rs]

People in the PTR are saying that this is not the case, I haven't tested it myself, but I wouldn't trust datamined information.

That's rather disappointing. I'll give it a test once I get home then to confirm.