1. #2281
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Anchorage Alaska
    Posts
    11,577
    Quote Originally Posted by K4sk View Post
    Not really, at all.

    At work I have colleagues that demand the same salary as me, yet they don't want to put in the extra necessary education, they'd rather spend their friday/weekend drinking or hanging out with friends and family etc.
    If you don't put in the effort, you can't have a bite of the cake, pretty simple.

    There's already dumped down heroic dungeons (basically old normal dungeons) and world quests that you solo players can do.
    If you truly want to raid and get that loot, you should at least put in the effort to learn your class just somewhat and sign up for the raids in the LFG tool. Being able to do nothing (signup for LFR) and still having a bite of the cake (raid loot) is just dumb.

    Why do you even play WoW when you have no interest in playing with others? It's an MMO after all, not some single player game. LFR is literally single player - You don't talk to anybody at all, you just go in and do your thing (usually afk), get rewarded and then fuck off without communicating with other people.
    I used to spend hours every day or week depending researching my class practicing om iy checking numbers and alot more. I would pay for my exchange remorse remember multiple times trying to get it just right(depending on class) follow the guides tweak the build perfect my rotations.

    I just do not have the energy or desire to do that anymore and I KNOW I am not alone. Nor do I see ANYONE asking to be able to get top end gear(this was probably one of blizzard's misunderstandings and mistakes with warforged and titanforged gear) most guys like me do not care about Ilv like blizz and raiders expect us too. No seeing the story and having fun quing fir a raid avoiding toxicity to relax that is what myself and many others seek.

  2. #2282
    Elemental Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,389
    Quote Originally Posted by K4sk View Post
    I care because it ruins the game.
    No it doesn't. Stop scapegoating.

    Quote Originally Posted by K4sk View Post
    It makes people lazy and somehow make them entitled (see the OP of this thread) to shit they simply aren't.
    I promise you that people were lazy and entitled long before LFR existed, and I guarantee that they would continue to be so if LFR were to be removed tomorrow. LFR simply allows these traits to manifest in an observable way, but that doesn't mean they weren't there all along, or wouldn't manifest in other ways given the chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by K4sk View Post
    There should be a drive to improve, become better and reach for other parts of the game. It's really not THAT hard to pug normal mode, if you truly want to get the achievements, loot or explore the story.
    No one should ever feel compelled to improve or become better and reach other parts of the game that for them are not enjoyable or fun. That being said, I would agree with the second half of your statement - if you want the achievements, then do it in normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by K4sk View Post
    But I'm glad that the ilvl of the LFR tool is so low that it's basically useless for the majority of players. Mythics and mythic+ are luckily way better, and I hope they continue this trend. Being able to do the legendary chain in LFR in the previous expansions was a big mistake, and luckily they've realised that now.
    I really can't agree with this attitude. While LFR should never be a mandatory part of the game, it shouldn't be useless either. Honestly, if some fools want to go overboard and "feel" that LFR is mandatory when it's clearly not, then LFR shouldn't be changed (at the expense of the vastly numerically superior number of people who actually like LFR), those people should be told to get a grip.

    And being able to do the legendary quest chain elements using LFR was great. It allowed everyone to participate in that piece of content without ever forcing any real raiders to resort to LFR. I honestly don't see the "mistake" - and given that Blizzard did this two expansions in a row, I don't think they see it as a mistake either.

  3. #2283
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Under Your Bed
    Posts
    4,405
    And you know what can't say no? LFR. LFR can't say no. I can do LFR when I want, how I want. LFR is what I want. I'm not saying to take things away from normal/heroic/mythic raiders...but as an LFR raider (Sorry haters, but that's what I am when I do LFR. looking for RAID and all)...why take things away from me?
    Okay. But artifact appearances were never in LFR, so there's nothing to take away.

  4. #2284
    People have always been lazy and entitled, yes, but they just didn't get away with being so, until LFR became a thing.
    They would've been kicked from groups/pugs with that kind of attitude. Now the attitude has growed on people.

    All I'm hearing from you is that you don't want to become better to do the current content, so you want dumped down and brainless shit to do, but still get rewarded. This is only further proved by the fact you can't agree to the idea that LFR gives so low ilvl that it almost makes it useless to run in the first place.
    The fact you can't do the artifact quest in LFR is a proof that they agree you shouldn't be able to do everything from the lowest difficulty in the game.

    And now we're back to the start - People feeling entitled to get stuff without putting in any effort.

  5. #2285
    Deleted
    Plot twist:
    It is not only 2 quests

    Afterwards you will get to do the rest of mythic dungeons for certain items (I think all, but Violet Citadel).
    Once you are done with these you get to wait till Nighthold becomes available.

    So: Even if you only do 2-3 bosses on normal every week you should be able to catch up with the raiding-crowd till the next part becomes available.

    Source: Own experience

    Edit to show you how the quest flow goes:
    - CoS, Arcway and Vault of the Wardens
    - OW Quest: You got to farm demons in Faronaar for 5 portal key fragments, combine them and summon a miniboss
    (The farming took me about half an hour, the boss has about 42M hp, so he can be done with 2/3 players)
    - Maw of Souls + group quest ; to bribe Odyn for a blessing you got to collect his shield from MoS and meat of 3 different rares
    - Neltharion's Lair; OFC you need a platter for the bribe/feast so you need to collect ore/metal to make it
    - Halls of Valor; use quest-item to initiate the "event" at the enterance (a few extra lines of RP + you have to wait about a minute after the end of the run to get the empowerment.
    - -BOOM- Wait for NH to open.
    Last edited by mmocda667d9fcc; 2016-10-11 at 10:40 AM.

  6. #2286
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Empire of Man
    Posts
    7,073
    Quote Originally Posted by BreathTaker View Post
    I agree, but for me there's one thing: you speak of 1 artifact skin than opens via quest in raid which cannot be done in LFR.
    From my point of view - i absoluttely have no idea what the quest will reward me with. I don't need the extra artifact skin (i transmog to some wotlk stuff anyway).
    I just feel like i'm doing a very important (main) questline and then my progress hits a wall. I don't know if it's the last quest in this chain, or if there's hundreds more left, but the story just breaks! I want to complete the story. Let the artifact skin or whatever the awesome reward there is drop from the last boss in mythic or normal for those who have already completed this quest, but let me complete the quest at least in LFR! I want to see how it ends, to see kadgar or whoever i help happy and maybe send me to more quests.
    Was it not all the LFR was about? To see the content in it's entirety, just get less shiny rewards than those who do it in harder difficulties?
    I do agree with the notion, that Blizzard messed up when they forgot to say, that an ordinary quest was only to be done in Normal or higher. It was a wierd way to make the quest, since it gave no warning of this.

    But after having done the quest, the story within the quest does not add anything to the overall story or any character buildup. It is just a normal side quest, which just gives a different reward then many others.

    If blizzard had put a (normal difficulty) sign on the quest, would it have made it more acceptable? Maybe even making it so, that it would only start after you had killed the first raiding boss on normal?
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  7. #2287
    Elemental Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,389
    Quote Originally Posted by K4sk View Post
    People have always been lazy and entitled, yes, but they just didn't get away with being so, until LFR became a thing. They would've been kicked from groups/pugs with that kind of attitude. Now the attitude has growed on people.
    The reality before LFR is that the vast majority of players never got to participate in any way whatsoever in raid content. You obviously don't have a problem with this because in your mind they are all nothing more than "lazy and entitled". Which of course doesn't even come close to the truth. Sure there are some lazy and entitled players in LFR, but I think your gross generalisation is lazy and inaccurate.

    And no, I don't agree that this so called "attitude" has grown on people. People like LFR for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with being lazy or entitled, and honestly, this is a game that you pay money to play and enjoy. It's not up to entitled people like you to dictate how other people should enjoy their game.

    Quote Originally Posted by K4sk View Post
    All I'm hearing from you is that you don't want to become better to do the current content, so you want dumped down and brainless shit to do, but still get rewarded.
    Hmm, so where exactly did I say this? For what it's worth I enjoy raiding at the heroic level, so my argument is totally not driven by my own personal bias. It's driven by my ability to see things from other people's perspective instead of being restricted to my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by K4sk View Post
    This is only further proved by the fact you can't agree to the idea that LFR gives so low ilvl that it almost makes it useless to run in the first place.
    I don't have to be the direct beneficiary of LFR gear being better to recognise that it's a bad idea to make it utterly worthless. Personally I am fine with where LFR gear currently is, but there is talk of it being 30 ilevels below normal for the next tier, which to me just seems like a severe case of overkill.

    Quote Originally Posted by K4sk View Post
    The fact you can't do the artifact quest in LFR is a proof that they agree you shouldn't be able to do everything from the lowest difficulty in the game.
    Yeah well, as it so happens I happen to agree. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with all the other nonsense you're spouting.

    Quote Originally Posted by K4sk View Post
    And now we're back to the start - People feeling entitled to get stuff without putting in any effort.
    Honestly, we pay money to play this game. We are entitled to get stuff without putting in any effort if that is what we find fun. But that doesn't mean that everything in the game should be given to players for zero effort because for other players, the effort is part of what the game engaging and fun.

    TL;DR: People demanding everything for zero effort is a bad thing. Going to the extreme in the opposite direction like you're advocating is just as bad. Try to find a reasonable middle ground.

  8. #2288
    Dreadlord BreathTaker's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    995
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    I do agree with the notion, that Blizzard messed up when they forgot to say, that an ordinary quest was only to be done in Normal or higher. It was a wierd way to make the quest, since it gave no warning of this.

    But after having done the quest, the story within the quest does not add anything to the overall story or any character buildup. It is just a normal side quest, which just gives a different reward then many others.

    If blizzard had put a (normal difficulty) sign on the quest, would it have made it more acceptable? Maybe even making it so, that it would only start after you had killed the first raiding boss on normal?
    I'd allow ALL quests to everyone on any difficulty. The very special rewards that only the dedicated and the skilled players get should be aquired by any other means, but not by quest. A quest completion may trigger "Eligible to looting item X from Boss Y in Normal+ difficulty", that may even be hidden, LFR crowd does need to even know about them.
    And as i said - i don't know if it's the last quest in chain (why do we always have to go to wowhead to check it?), the story feels unfinished...
    I

  9. #2289
    It seems some people in this topic are deluding themselves about Cataclysm.

    http://download.gamezone.com/uploads...188365/Wow.JPG

    What actually happened was that the losses started after the new expansion honeymoon period was over. This was about the time casuals realised there was fuck all world content for them, bugger all daily quests, and Blizzard clearly didn't want them doing dungeons. Casual raiders like myself also found that normal raids were a ballache as well, then Firelands came out and guilds started falling apart.

    This is because there was a 20% nerf to the 4.0 raids, which felt like Blizzard wanted us to always be a tier behind because we were filthy casuals. Heroics, also, got even MORE annoying--Blizzard nerfed the Valour gain in the 4.0 Heroics, and expected us to chain-run two troll dungeons until our eyes bled if we wanted to cap our Valour for the week.

    In the middle of the Cataclysm part of the image I linked is a very slight decrease. That was the result of patch 4.3 bringing with it Raid Finder, transmog and dungeons that didn't make players want to slit their own wrists. From my own perspective, 4.3 brought back enough of my guild that we managed to down Madness after falling apart due to excessive normal-mode difficulty and fuck all casual content from 4.0 to 4.2.

    Blizzard were trying to make everyone more hardcore, and it backfired on them massively.
    It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hardcore, as it had been in the past. -- Tom Chilton

  10. #2290
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    Organizing 5 people is not the same as organizing 10-20 people for 9 weeks or more. It's not the matter of skill, but of the availability of people with enough skill and the same time frame to play.
    First of all, I have no desire to have LFR removed. I don't want it to have an endgame though.

    Second, the amount of people you're talking about is a tiny percent of casuals. Overwhelming majority of them don't have the skill. Mythic +15 is far harder than Normal EN. So I still disagree.

  11. #2291
    Quote Originally Posted by Blayze View Post
    Blizzard were trying to make everyone more hardcore, and it backfired on them massively.
    Indeed. We know Blizzard intentionally tried to make the game more hardcore, since Chilton said (after they tried) that it hadn't been realistic to do so.

    I'd really like some leakage from former Blizzard devs about the thinking that was going on here. Maybe in a few years.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  12. #2292
    Deleted
    OMG! Blizz is telling you to go talk to other people in an MMO?!! How dare they?!!

    This isnt a legendary quest chain you know? Theres nothing locked behind it that will give you a super duper skill for your artifact as far as i know. So... don't do it if you don't want to talk to other people (in an MMO)?

    Should be happy LFR still exists at all.

  13. #2293
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    First of all, I have no desire to have LFR removed. I don't want it to have an endgame though.

    Second, the amount of people you're talking about is a tiny percent of casuals. Overwhelming majority of them don't have the skill. Mythic +15 is far harder than Normal EN. So I still disagree.
    And the world boss tint?
    It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hardcore, as it had been in the past. -- Tom Chilton

  14. #2294
    Quote Originally Posted by Blayze View Post
    And the world boss tint?
    That one is easy to do. If Blizzard decides to end the skin gating behind the first skin, then casuals will get that one.

    It wouldn't be the end of the world if that were to happen imo, but Blizz has said nothing about doing so.

  15. #2295
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    OMG! Blizz is telling you to go talk to other people in an MMO?!! How dare they?!!

    This isnt a legendary quest chain you know? Theres nothing locked behind it that will give you a super duper skill for your artifact as far as i know. So... don't do it if you don't want to talk to other people (in an MMO)?

    Should be happy LFR still exists at all.
    Another sterotypical reply regarding people who do not raid beyond LFR. I raid LFR only, so I must antisocial, enjoy solo, bad, lazy, mouth breather, autistic etc.

    Anything else you like to add to that list?

    Amazing how people can determine what others are like simply because they play the game differently.

    Personally, I do not socialize with people with that kind of impression of other players.

  16. #2296
    Quote Originally Posted by Blayze
    And the world boss tint?
    Or the Legion Dungeon hero skin? It's bad game design to gate the dungeon skins behind clearing a raid imo. But since I'm not a developer for a multi-billion dollar gaming company what do I really know? :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar
    Should be happy LFR still exists at all.
    If you are happy with raiding as it stands now, you should be happy LFR exists as well.

  17. #2297
    Deleted
    Lfr hero tears..

    Delicious.

  18. #2298
    Have you LFR turds tried actually playing the game?

  19. #2299
    Quote Originally Posted by grandgato View Post
    Or the Legion Dungeon hero skin? It's bad game design to gate the dungeon skins behind clearing a raid imo. But since I'm not a developer for a multi-billion dollar gaming company what do I really know? :P
    It's behind the design of time spent. It's not dungeon hero, it's glory of the hero. These achievements are done by a minority of players, especially now that they require mythic rather than heroic.

    Your argument is besides the point. Even if they stop the gating, the majority of casuals still will not get this skin. That's why Blizz feels they are justified.

  20. #2300
    Quote Originally Posted by Icaras View Post
    Selective memory is a funny thing. Snuffleupagus seems to think in cata subs went down because of nerfs. Whereas I recall people bailing because the heroics were a massive roadblock and were not how many people wanted or expected them to be. \
    Raid being nerfed weren't that much of a factor, besides a few "I want to get it done pre nerf!" whinings.

    Those of us that do LFR don't think "raiding is horrendously terrible" (The people that think that are very likely to do no raiding at all, being they hate it, ya know?), we don't want to be committed to a raid team (For example of myself. Been there, done that. Now prefer to have full control over when I do something)
    People also don't want to deal with pugging. Yes yes, some people can pug easily , but not everyone has confidence. And for every person that claims they pug easily, there are other that face a night of being told "no".

    And you know what can't say no? LFR. LFR can't say no. I can do LFR when I want, how I want. LFR is what I want. I'm not saying to take things away from normal/heroic/mythic raiders...but as an LFR raider (Sorry haters, but that's what I am when I do LFR. looking for RAID and all)...why take things away from me?
    They nerfed heroics bc they thought a rando group of mongoloids should be able to clear it, not "rando group needs to actually try"
    And then they added a harder tier of heroics at the same time.

    Kinda like Legion "heroics" and mythic+0

    Kinda like LFR and Normal. If you wanna do a rando group and don't ever really face any challenges, sure, there's content for you. You won't get the same rewards, but the content is there.

    Anyway OT this is probably why the casualbads hated WoD LFR so much. It let them know via different skins that they were the substandard players that they are.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •