I REALLY miss 10 man Mythic(Heroic)

[Deleted]

Well, if you missed the opportunity of 2 new addons (WoD and Legion) to recruit a mythic roster, there is only one thing to blame: yourselves.

Like it or not, but the 20-man raid size for mythic was announced several months in advance of WoD. My guild that raided 25 man until Cataclysm and then went 10-man till the end of MoP started recruiting at the end of MoP and we are raiding mythic 20-man ever since. With Legion there was another "reset" where you could have recruited, but you did not (or could not).

Sucks, but if you cannot adapt within 2+ years, then it's on you imo.

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It is impossible to find reliable people who will have good attendance, at least good levels of skill and won't be your typical loot whoring drama starters. On my server, 99.9% of people don't fit these small requirements. So, wiped on roster boss in Warlords and then just said "fuck it, we're out", and left mythic raiding. Also, it is stupid to compare nowadays and good old days, by the way.

OT: I miss it too. 10-man format was possibly the best time in wow raiding.

100% untrue. YOu might just be unable to recruit them tho, for various reasons.

[PewPewArrowz]

All I read from your comments sir, is "I love the current system, it fits me. THIS IS MMO". No. You can't dictate what other people should think of end content. Hardcore raiding should be a difficult task at coordinating groups of people who play above avg according to how I see it. The size of the group shouldn't matter for it to still count.

As some one who has raided 40 man, 25 man and 10 man, I do love the current system, personally fits me well as well as the group size isn't too much isn't too low. I'm not Blizzard, I don't dictate anything, I just put down people that think they're entitled to play their co-op campaigns with friends and see all the content.

If you want 10 man, you could still do heroic theres no limit to that, you could still do M+ which is kinda end content at +8/9/10. 10 man raiding was just lazy mans raiding, nothing else, if you're willing to put the time into raiding 10 man heroic you can damn well put time to recruit 10 more people and do Mythic.

Honestly though, I understand the argument that you want to play with friends and nobody is actually forbidding you to do that, but if you are committed enough to want 10 man Mythic, I'm gonna assume you're not really a casual player who spends a low amount of time ingame, thus time is not the issue to get 10 more equally motivated characters, hell my own guild formed just before Legion and we are 2/7 M right now, core was consisted of a group of 5/6 friends who decided to do mythic.

[RobertMugabe]

Well today's system is quite similar to how raids in Wrath worked. While I did like 10 man heroics in cata and mop I do remeber that only a few guilds were doing 25-mans actually, as having a 10 man raid was much easier to manage and they were a lot more forgiveable (and class Combos ment a lot more) etc.

[Dristereau]

Our Guild is 6/7 Heroic right now after this Week's Raid. After the disaster that was WoD that ended up with a reasonable chunk of Raiders leaving to form their own Guild, our Officers have decided against Mythic altogether. So, if we end up killing Xavius soon and Trial of Valor/Nighthold doesn't come out for a bit, we're back to repeatedly killed Xavius and then doing it again on Alts.

It's kind of a shame, because we had a strong 10 Man team in MoP who by the end of SoO had got to Blackfuse 10 Heroic. I don't feel that having flexible for every other difficulty and then with Mythic having a rigid 20 Man size helps the transition personally.

But yeah, we'll just end up clearing the raid on Heroic and Alts, then do Mythic+ Dungeons until the next Raids.

[Dominus89]

I beg to differ https://youtu.be/aI0_alfiPn0?t=10m24s

Beg to differ what? That I dont think it feels epic killing a boss with 10 man? Am I not allowed to my own personal opinion?
And what was epic in that video? That a couple of people screamed in german at the end of it? lol.
That video just showed why I dont think it's epic with 10 man, the room looks so empty it's almost sad.


I do not think that it is epic to kill a big bad boss with just 10 people, 20 minimum for my own taste.

[Einzweidrei]

I also miss 10-man raids (at top level). More people means it's harder to put together a group period, let alone a group where you genuinely like all of the people you are spending 2-4 nights per week raiding with and even more time playing with beyond that. Basically every expansion I come back to WoW excited to raid, but then when I remember how hard it is to find a guild with the right schedule, with people I like to play with, who share my desire to play at a high level but without a 12-hour schedule or a 20-man raid group? I quit again until the next expansion.

I basically never raided in classic because the larger size was just less appealing, even if it sometimes was more epic. 5- and 10-man content was where it was at! Karazhan was the only raid in TBC I enjoyed, not because the other stuff wasn't cool, but because you couldn't do it without a much larger group. Wrath was great, cause even though 25-man was a bit better for loot, every raid was challenging and fun and rewarding with a 10-man group. Etc.

Mythic being 20-man only is a lame excuse. They are more than capable of balancing mythic around 10-man raids.

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10 man raiding was just lazy mans raiding, nothing else, if you're willing to put the time into raiding 10 man heroic you can damn well put time to recruit 10 more people and do Mythic.

10-man raiding was for people who preferred to spend more of their time in the game on the game with the people they wanted to play with, and less time building and maintaining a larger roster that was much less likely to consist of only the people you'd like to be playing with.

[Reachie10]

I dont.
Killing a boss with just 10 people doesnt feel epic at all.

How does killing a boss with 20 people, feel more epic then with 10 people?

You're still killing the boss. You still have the same amount of progression.

Is winning a NBA Championship less epic then winning a NFL championship?

Both have different roster sizes and amount of players on the field/court at once, IDK how the amount of people engaging in the competition can be less or more epic.

[Rhoe]

I'm happy 10man isn't a thing in the hardest difficulty anymore. And yes, I did raid 10man hc at the end of Cata (since my 25man guild lost so many players that we had to go down to 10man) and half of MoP. It didn't feel epic at all, and frequently gave us trouble with not being able to take some people or do some encounters properly because of the classes we had in our raid team. 16 people in the raid team, yet we still couldn't do twin emperors in Mogushan vaults because we didn't have a single hunter or mage, and it didn't feel that great to recruit with 6 people on the bench already.

Sure, it sucks to be you if your guild can't get 20 good players together, but you know what? It's not Blizzard's fault that your officer team isn't good enough at recruiting. I was just in a guild like that. Lovely people, most of them, but the officer team was too busy IRL to recruit. So a few of the most progression minded raiders approached the officer team and said "Hey, we're not happy with the direction of the guild at the moment, are you planning to make any changes?" And the officer team was like "Nope!". So what did we do? We left for a guild that wanted to make it work. Yes, it sucks that we left people we like behind, but that's just the way it is. And if you value raiding with a certain set of people over raiding the hardest difficulty, that's a choice YOU made, not something Blizzard forced you into.

I still do mythic+ with a lot of people I like, but aren't guilded with anymore. It's not like you have to stop talking to people you're not doing mythic raiding with.

[GiefEpixe]

It's too late but this shouldn't have turned into a discussion about whether 10m or 25m was more difficult in the past. It never mattered. Those were simply two separate races. At this point, it should be clear to everyone that Blizzard is just incapable of tuning and balancing correctly.

What most people fail to realise is that the MMO audience has evolved over the years. The average age is 26 in MMOs like WoW. Peoples' lives changed and the young guns mostly play other games like LoL these days.

In order to reliably manage and coordinate a 20m+ roster you need a lot of time on your hand. The core audience doesn't have this time anymore due to job, family and other responsibilities. These people are still interested in the highest difficulty of the game, though, but simply don't have access to it because there's just not enough time for most to deal with the recruitment boss.

10m was by far the more popular variant. Incapability and lazyness on Blizzard's end to put more effort into tuning and balancing and personal bias of the people in charge (Ion himself raiding 25m) led to the creation of 20m.

It's a concept that will inevitably fail the older the core audience gets.

[Dominus89]

How does killing a boss with 20 people, feel more epic then with 10 people?

You're still killing the boss. You still have the same amount of progression.

Is winning a NBA Championship less epic then winning a NFL championship?

Both have different roster sizes and amount of players on the field/court at once, IDK how the amount of people engaging in the competition can be less or more epic.

Winning a sports title and killing a boss is not even remotely the same, the only thing thats comparable is that you work together with a group of people to achieve something.
To win the NBA championships or the NFL you're having just as many players to fight against in the opposing team, and not just a single individual.
This is probably the worst comparison I've ever seen when it comes to this topic.


The place feels empty in a 10man raid, if the raid is also doable in a group of 30 people.

[Xevarc]

I preferred 10man raiding, Non of this "Groups within the group" You had less people to rely on, and it was a small cozy group of friends. Obviously i want to raid the highest difficulty's available to had to switch to 20man

[Deleted]

I actually just finally gave up on raiding after the first week of Emerald Nightmare.

Yep same here. It's just not worth the pain.
The top guilds guilds have their people, but for the low-midtier mythic guilds it's a constant pain in the ass.

Since Normal and Heroic became puggable (no raid-id locks), the "feeder guilds" more or less disappeared - you used to have a good flow of people wanting to move up from casual guilds to more hardcore - but now most are just pugging the stuff because why commit to schedules right?

Luckily this time around they finally came up with relevant 5-man content, so that's where I'll be. Fuck mythic recruitment.

[Drilnos]

I never had a better time in this game than when I was raiding ten man heroics and not having to worry about recruiting or merging or whatever to get beyond that. Tried to adapt in WoD, failed four consecutive times. Now I just don't raid.

[kneehidude]

SoO was cleared in one week

The question was: "How many people are doing mythic compared to old heroic?" Rate at which it was cleared is irrelvant.

[Notdev]

An underrated reason I rarely see ever being stated in any of these threads is that the raid developers likely didn't enjoy having to make sure every mechanic they came up with in the hardest (and to be honest, only real "progression" difficulty) would work for two vastly different raid sizes. Attempting to balance the two equally and failing over and over again got to them as well, I'm sure. It was a ball and chain. They were weighed down by it.

I think that mattered the most to them. I too, was in a 10 man guild. Was the leader in fact. When 20 man was announced I was upset. But chose to do something about it instead of just whine - all of the people in my guild that wanted to continue raiding picked up and left to another guild that was making the transition from 10-20. It was incredibly smooth and we're still raiding with that guild to this day. Was made an officer not too long after joining as well.

[Traxwow]

Of course some people will think 10m was harder. 10m raiders wouldn't be able to experience 25m mode because they have 10 people. 25m raiders could experience 10m mode because they had more than 10 people. The truth was that 10m mode would heavily favor some classes because of balancing, and mechanics were easier because of scaling.

[Deleted]

Your answer to my post and also:

Winning a sports title and killing a boss is not even remotely the same, the only thing thats comparable is that you work together with a group of people to achieve something.
To win the NBA championships or the NFL you're having just as many players to fight against in the opposing team, and not just a single individual.
This is probably the worst comparison I've ever seen when it comes to this topic.


The place feels empty in a 10man raid, if the raid is also doable in a group of 30 people.

Your argumentation isn't any better.
Naxx' Gothik must have been the best encounter ever then. There are so many enemys in addition to the party, that's just epic as hell.... not.

You didn't write that it doen't feel epic TO YOU. You wrote it doesn't feel epic at all.
So if I beg to differ you shouldn't start argumenting that I am not allowed to differ with YOUR oppinion.

And in MY oppinion the epicness of a fight rises and falls with the difficulty of the encounter and the feeling you have when you first beat it.
That's why succeeding in Super Hexagon's Hyper Hexagonest mode for xyz seconds can feels way more epic than winning an Alterac Valley. Even if there were 40 players in your group in Alterac compared to you being alone in Super Hexagon.

[Deleted]

I miss 10man. The change to mythic 20 killed my biggest enjoyment of the game, too. I miss being able to raid in laid back team, friends, people I know well.

Nowadays I also raid only casually.

[Compstance]

Back in MoP, we had our own, very well running 10man raid who was able to compete on our server (around rank 2-3 throughout MoP).

After Blizzard basically forced 20man upon us, we have been in nothing but trouble. We never managed to recruit the required players to continue playing on the same level, and it has been going downhill ever since. We couldn't keep up our old progression, became less and less interesting for players required to keep up with the progression we aimed for and that would result in players eventually leaving our Guild.

It is so incredibly hard to find 10-15 People that fit the raid, 10-15 people who play on the same "level" as the rest of the Raid does.

Now, in Legion, i have reached a point where i get anxiety to log in, click on the guild info log and see if another player left the guild because we can't keep up with what we used to be.

I will never understand why blizzard took away 10man as a viable format for Mythic Raiding.Sure it might be easier from a balancing point of view, but it still screwed so many guilds and takes away so much potential from guilds who simply don't have the options to recruit needed players.

Agreed. 10-15 would be the sweet spot IMO. 20+ raiding usually ends up in a lot of carrying, babysitting and drama. By all means, keep it around if that's what people want, but I won't be doing much Mythic raiding anymore simply because there's too much random nonsense involved. I like to be challenged by the game, not by logistics and drama.

[Deleted]

I'm personally really glad they removed it. It felt small and empty. I didn't feel like it was a raid, it felt on the order of a dungeon. There were far too few people and you were far to reliant on them. You could maybe have a bench of 1 dps. Tank or healer call out? Not raiding that night.

Plus they had balancing issues, and there were fights/tiers easier on each difficulty. You could also argue that 25m was harder for various reasons, even though bosses died more easily for 25 mans.

T11 was easier on 10m
T12 was 25m
T13 was 25m
T14 was 10m
T15 was 25m
T16 was 25m.

I'm glad they got rid of it and kept a size that felt like a raid. 25 was better, we had to let around 6 people go during the transition, but I get why they had to make the concession to 10 mans and make it 20m raiding. They really need to stick to their guns and not transition out of 20m raiding.

So let me see if i get what you say, you are happy because you were not interested in 10-man raiding, and you do not give a rat´s ass if the ones that were interested in 10-man were left with nothing.
If due to the absolute success of Mythic+, blizz has a change of heart and decides to remove higher than 5-man content from the game, it is ok then for me to be happy they remove from the game the content YOU like to do?
Oh and please do not bring the balancing crap into play when as someone has mentioned before, you can see nowadays people recruiting ranged dps only, as usual.

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I like how - in a game with millions and where servers are really no barrier - people act like 20 people is this impossible number to find.

Impossible? no, too damn hard to find, specially between non english speaking people, sure as hell, ask Paragon.

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However, I believe 20man is easier for them to balance. I am not personally a part of the race, and have never been. But I do understand the need for a more balanced enviroment around something that is a race.

Easier? yes, but still i see no balance, you can still see class stacking.