Mother and daughter face incest charges after marriage in Oklahoma

[Fojos]

Incest laws aren't just about birth defects, they are the inherent power a parent has over their children.

Really? What inherent power does a 45 year old have over a 25 year old?

Should we forbid any major age difference because in general older people are higher on the social ladder with more economic power.

We already have laws against having sex / relations with underage people.

[Deleted]

Consenting adults? None of my business.

If it's mom and adult daughter, gross ( to me), but consenting adults and none of my business

I'm in no uncomfortable corner of any sort. What consenting adults do in private is .... wait for it .... none of my business.

Conservatives need to get the f out of people's bedrooms.

Agreed with this. Government should stay out of peoples personal lives if they are consenting adults

[Fojos]

The intellectual rigour of people who can't read six posts up the same thread is always impressive.

Or the "intellectual rigour" of people who try to discuss an area like genetics when they clearly have no expertise or knowledge of it.

Again, there are many situations where you have higher risks of serious problems that we don't forbid (because in those cases it's none of our business).

[Coombs]

So we shouldn't let people with genetic conditions breed either. There are many situations where you have a much higher probability of serious issues than incest.

It depends on the condition, but yes we shouldn't allow certain conditions to procreate. Adopt and be responsible instead of giving your child something devastating based off of your own ego.

[Deleted]

Or the "intellectual rigour" of people who try to discuss an area like genetics when they clearly have no expertise or knowledge of it.

Again, there are many situations where you have higher risks of serious problems that we don't forbid (because in those cases it's none of our business).

It is our business in countries with a functioning welfare state. If the child needs to be cared for by the state then it costs everyone.

As for my knowledge of genetics or otherwise you are welcome to produce sources showing that incest is harmless to the infant.

[Varitok]

See above. Producing children who develop extreme extreme abnormalities, are severely mentally impaired, or simply die is an act of extreme cruelty.

Then we should ban people with preexisting mental or physical conditions that can be hereditary. Thats exactly the same thing except it doesn't involve something icky that people want to police.

[Deleted]

Really? What inherent power does a 45 year old have over a 25 year old?

You have obviously never met any people.

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Then we should ban people with preexisting mental or physical conditions that can be hereditary. Thats exactly the same thing except it doesn't involve something icky that people want to police.

Again, the intellectual rigour of people who can't read through a fucking thread on the internet amazes me.

I'm sure someone who has difficulty following an internet thread has spent hours looking through medical journals to uncover the actual effects of incest upon an infant, and isn't just mouthing off on the basis of some arbitary and half-formed instinctive reaction.

[Varitok]

You have obviously never met any people.

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Again, the intellectual rigour of people who can't read through a fucking thread on the internet amazes me.

I'm sure someone who has difficulty following an internet thread has spent hours looking through medical journals to uncover the actual effects of incest upon an infant, and isn't just mouthing off on the basis of some arbitary and half-formed instinctive reaction.

No no, answer my question then. I know what the actual affects of incest are. Why is it not allowed but older people and people with preexisting condition allowed to breed when their chances of having children with disabilities are just as high? Don't try to throw out some big boy words instead of answering the fucking question.

You're the one throwing out this "Inherent power" argument with no basis for it at all. I've seen plenty of my friends leave home and never let their parents have this so called power of them the second they hit 18.

[Deleted]

No no, answer my question then. I know what the actual affects of incest are. Why is it not allowed but older people and people with preexisting condition allowed to breed when their chances of having children with disabilities are just as high? Don't try to throw out some big boy words instead of answering the fucking question.

You're the one throwing out this "Inherent power" argument with no basis for it at all. I've seen plenty of my friends leave home and never let their parents have this so called power of them the second they hit 18.

I am not answering the same question repeatedly because you are too stupid or too lazy to read back a page. Or, indeed, participate in this thread further. It is like talking to a fucking tree.

infracted - minor flaming

[Varitok]

I am not answering the same question repeatedly because you are too stupid or too lazy to read back a page. Or, indeed, participate in this thread further. It is like talking to a fucking tree.

Oh okay, that really helps your case. Because you can't answer the question is the real answer. Typical.

[Shahad]

Oh okay, that really helps your case. Because you can't answer the question is the real answer. Typical.

Should there be a law that known carriers of certain genetic disorders (e.g. cystic fibrosis), cannot marry?

Yes. I made the difficult decision not to have children because for, various reasons, I can't guarantee their happiness. It was a very tough decision. I have no sympathy for people who are so selfish they place their own paternal or maternal urges over that of a child. Many, many people are making the same decision across Europe because of the ongoing economic problems.

Your children are not some thing you are entitled to. There's enough children born into poverty, sickness and misery.

There ya go fam

[Poppincaps]

2 consenting adults who can't even have children so the potential birth defects of incest don't even apply. Is it weird as shit? Yeah, but there's no need for anyone else to get involved. I understand that incest is illegal in Oklahoma but I think that's kinda stupid. I don't support incest, but I support the government not interfering in people's personal lives when it doesn't affect anyone else.

[Deleted]

Who the fuck names their daughter Misty Velvet Dawn

[Varitok]

There ya go fam

So its all about personal decisions and how he didn't have children for his childrens sake? I can get behind that and I think its an admirable thing to do but that is still not answering the issue. How can you ban one thing and not the other? I wasn't asking for a person opinion or choice. If incest is banned on the grounds of birth defects then how can you allowed people with preexisting conditions to do what they like? It wasn't really an answer as much as an opinion which I think is great of you advanta I just don't agree with your arguments towards me.

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Who the fuck names their daughter Misty Velvet Dawn

The same type of people who named their child Moon Unit Zappa :P

[Sama-81]

So its all about personal decisions and how he didn't have children for his childrens sake? I can get behind that and I think its an admirable thing to do but that is still not answering the issue. How can you ban one thing and not the other? I wasn't asking for a person opinion or choice. If incest is banned on the grounds of birth defects then how can you allowed people with preexisting conditions to do what they like? It wasn't really an answer as much as an opinion which I think is great of you advanta I just don't agree with your arguments towards me.

There is actually a huge difference, in the sense that a person with a disease can at best passively pass it on - in the case of incest, you actually actively create a completely new disease. It should also be noted that a large majority of recessive disorders, aren't at all dangerous to pass on, statistically. In fact, more or less every single one of us that have children will do just that - ie, pass one or more of them along. You can certainly be of the opinion you are, but equaling the two concepts is flat out a false equivalence. It could of course be argued that people with some particular diseases shouldn't be able to procreate either, but then the argument is just that - that they shouldn't either. Not that incest ought to be legal. Certainly not from the perspective of someone actually understanding the medical aspects of the situation, at least.

[stabetha]

I'd support criminal sanction agaist businesses who sell those things to pregnant women, and I doubt many would disagree.

In any case minor statistical effects don't compare with a 40-50% chance of major birth defects or death. You have to be completely ignorant of probability theory to find those things comparable.

criminal sanctions against businesses for having dumb customers? Complete lack of personal responsibility.

[Seranthor]

They can marry who they like. They just shouldn't have children.

Liberty doesn't extend to damaging other people.

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Yes. I made the difficult decision not to have children because for, various reasons, I can't guarantee their happiness. It was a very tough decision. I have no sympathy for people who are so selfish they place their own paternal or maternal urges over that of a child. Many, many people are making the same decision across Europe because of the ongoing economic problems.

Your children are not some thing you are entitled to. There's enough children born into poverty, sickness and misery.

Now you are going to try and control someone's reproductive rights? Really?

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You don't seem to know what a fact is. A probability of an event can be a fact.

and a probability can also result in nothing happening at all... Yes?

[stabetha]

No no, answer my question then. I know what the actual affects of incest are. Why is it not allowed but older people and people with preexisting condition allowed to breed when their chances of having children with disabilities are just as high? Don't try to throw out some big boy words instead of answering the fucking question.

You're the one throwing out this "Inherent power" argument with no basis for it at all. I've seen plenty of my friends leave home and never let their parents have this so called power of them the second they hit 18.

I don't think you understand what inherent power means in this case, it doesn't mean they can ground you for not cleaning your room. A parent's words, advice, teachings....etc hold much more sway over a person then some random guy/girl do. You can try to deny it based some anecdotal evidence but it's human nature.

[Varitok]

There is actually a huge difference, in the sense that a person with a disease can at best passively pass it on - in the case of incest, you actually actively create a completely new disease. It should also be noted that a large majority of recessive disorders, aren't at all dangerous to pass on, statistically. In fact, more or less every single one of us that have children will do just that - ie, pass one or more of them along. You can certainly be of the opinion you are, but equaling the two concepts is flat out a false equivalence. It could of course be argued that people with some particular diseases shouldn't be able to procreate either, but then the argument is just that - that they shouldn't either. Not that incest ought to be legal. Certainly not from the perspective of someone actually understanding the medical aspects of the situation, at least.

I understand the medical situation and It is absolutely a equivalence you can make. If they are going to argue about it from a hypocritical standpoint than I can counter them with the fact that people with diseases or disorders still can breed freely and if you try to take away that right from them its a terrible thing. I don't believe in incest but its not my business.

The two concepts are literally on the same plane, There is a CHANCE at passing along these bad genes but the same goes for incest as you are purposefully putting the baby at risk in both cases and personal beliefs don't really matter, your arguement can't be "Well i dont think that they should be able to breed either" as that isn't the issue here, the issue is why you give rights to one person and not another just because you dislike what the other does, I don't want them to have kids but you can't give to one group at risk and not to another. The law shouldn't pick and choose. Throwing someone in prison for love, even if you don't agree with it, is a horrendous thing.

[sethman75]

Wait, you are against people that love each other getting married or being with each other? How bigoted of you.

Good point. This is where the slippery slope goes and who knows where it ends