View Poll Results: On which class would a player be better?

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104. This poll is closed
  • Warlock

    46 44.23%
  • Mage

    58 55.77%
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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Cainium View Post
    1. You have proven nothing other than that you don't have any valid points "against" locks.
    2. Your last statement "proves" how less you know about that what you are talking about ("mythic progression", nice try, lol)

    To become more serious: I've had tons of situations where the fact that i'm a warlock helped my group out more than any mage ever could. For example tanking Odyn for 15 seconds due to a tank death so that we managed to kill him in time, instead of not beating the timer. Doing the last 20% of a mythic dungeon boss solo 'cause "i could" and the rest of my group died, soaking things during raid encounters where EVERY other DPS dies, enslaving demons to abuse their overtuned abilities and all that stuff.

    DPS is not everything. In vanilla times paladins have been brought to the raids JUST FOR THEIR BUFFS. Today everything is that simplyfied that these concepts won't work anymore. But seriously, how can the option to talent into 2 AoE stuns, 2 Interrupts, Dispel, Seduction, AoE Fear, Instant 3sec Horror, 2 Range Stun and all that stuff be a bad thing? It isn't.

    And here is the keyword what warlocks bring to a group: Versatility. The lock can adjust to any type of group no matter what is needed. In the current easy-mode game, at least for me, that is more worth than a baseline interrupt or 10k DPS due to taking Sac on trash pulls. That our DPS sucks without talent X is just plain wrong, it is lower, yes, but not completly gimped to a level that make us "useless".

    Good groups know about these facts. Bad groups, and bad players, reroll to mage. The only sad thing about those people is that they go out in the world and scream that warlocks are bad, and that those people will actively prevent warlocks from getting back into mythic+, even when they themselve play so bad that they get easily beaten by any lock out there.
    Great post, I couldn't agree more.

  2. #182
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd1ofakind View Post
    Why take a Warlock, when mages have:
    1. An interrupt
    2. Better CC (sheep>>>fear)
    3. Better damage. (See 75% parses on reddit. Fire in top 3. Demo and destro in middle)
    4. Better mobility. (Blink through mechanics)
    5. More spells to cast while moving: scorch, ignite + pyro, living bomb, icy floes
    6. Better survivability (ice block allows to ignore certain mechanics)
    7. Bloodlust
    What do warlocks have?
    1. The gateway (it's incredible, don't get me wrong)
    2. Sustainability
    But give me 5 more. Hell. 3 more. 2 more? 1?
    EDIT: This is purely a mythic guild progress discussion. Be it raids or mythic+
    (1) There have been times in the past (even on some fights now) where locks outshine Mages

    (2) Its okay to like the mage class better and the mechanics better. Perhaps you enjoy the lore of Warlocks, but like the mechanics of a Mage. But its okay to like a mage better and to do better personally as a mage. I don't think that means there is a problem with warlocks though, nor is that justification to make a shadow mage, or a demon infused mage. Its just a preference and you need to come to terms with the fact that you simply enjoy a mage more.

    You have a list of complaints, and no solutions. You have to maintain a semblance of class identity otherwise why have 2 separate classes? The more you try to align these complaints and make the 1 class comparable to the other you get homogenization... and we have already seen how bad that can be.

    Mages (fire mages) got a lot more love in this xpac. Warlocks though have seen some significant changes over the last several xpacs. Personally the constant changes have since caused me to look toward other classes that have remained "stable". They have also basically said that Mages are basically the benchmark and they are pretty satisfied with their performance. They have been making ongoing changes to the classes and I would say just give it time.

    Furthermore, a warlock's sustainability/survivability is nothing to sneeze at. It allows a little bit more of learning curve. Not to say that mages or warlocks is the caster with training wheels... but some classes and their design allow for decent performance regardless of skill, whereas other classes allow for decent performance increases as skill increases. Enhancement shaman were like that for a long time.

    The gap between a bad frost dk and a good frost dk is minimal... the gap between a good enhancement and a bad enhancement can be pretty significant.
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2016-10-11 at 05:52 PM.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    Of course it does. You can't expect pure DPS class to perform bad when compared to a hybrid class.



    Why would anyone give a fuck what others think what you play and how? Why are you impressed by others being in World Top 10 when most of those guilds are filled with shitheads? I mean, good job in investing time to be in top for something stupid as game. It's really sad seeing them thinking they achieved something.
    A ret paladin is a ret paladin.

    That guy has played ret for 5-6 years, has zero experience or interest in healing or tanking. Expecting him to swap to healer or tank just because he plays a paladin is retarded.

    Your 2nd paragraph is just "i don't care lul" drivel.

    Acting like you didn't care was cool when you were 12. As a grown ass adult, it just looks pathetic.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridius View Post
    Comparing the utility of Blink to a combat res?

    You use health stones over healing potions??

    Summoning portal? While in combat?

    Implosion and Shadowburn in a raid encounter?

    Rain of Fire for damage while moving? That costs 3 soul shards

    You're not a warlock...
    That last one is new (and it was always instacast in the past, but we just got that back now....and also isn't super useful for mobility, just thins out the hardcast redundancy of the spec) Imploising is used niche, Shadowburn stinks (and is also niche) Healthstones being important? They are not Summoning in combat? WHA??? And I don't know about you, but i'm the last person ever asked to combat rez anyone in combat.

    I'm a warlock for over a decade; your answer's are thin.
    If you are progressing through content just to obtain gear, you are doing it wrong. You, in fact, are doing it exactly backwards.
    You are the leader of the Black Harvest, go harvest some squirrels and crack some more nuts. Sir.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by rvd1ofakind View Post
    I like how you make assumptions. This is a mythic raiding/mythic+ discussion because I AM mythic raiding. Why would I care otherwise?
    And even if they woudn't care how I played, I care. Every time I'm in the top 5 of the DPS meter, I actually get upset because the other players aren't pulling their weight.

    And on to the points:
    1. 75% worse healhpots that promote laziness
    2. The worst battleress in the game that only gets used when every other user is dead (which means it's a wipe)
    3. Unless you mean the infernal, you can't have 3 and 4 in the same list.
    4. I kinda agree here but should be called sustainability. I'll add it to the first post.
    5. Doesn't make us better than mages.
    6. Mages always cleave.
    7. And mages are better no matter how good you are.
    8. Promotes laziness, you should be ready before raid.
    I can go through your post using the same shitty logic:

    Quote Originally Posted by rvd1ofakind View Post
    Why take a Warlock, when mages have:
    1. An interrupt
    2. Better CC (sheep>>>fear)
    3. Better damage. (See 75% parses on reddit. Fire in top 3. Demo and destro in middle)
    4. Better mobility. (Blink through mechanics)
    5. More spells to cast while moving: scorch, ignite + pyro, living bomb, icy floes
    6. Better survivability (ice block allows to ignore certain mechanics)
    7. Bloodlust
    What do warlocks have?
    1. The gateway (it's incredible, don't get me wrong)
    2. Sustainability
    But give me 5 more. Hell. 3 more. 2 more? 1?

    1. An interrupt that has a longer CD than melee / tanks and stops casting
    2. Yes a CC that breaks on 1 DMG, heals its target and removes dots. Thanks mages! I'm sure mages don't mind not having an aoe stun or a stun of any kind.
    3. Until you encounter spread cleave
    4. Warlocks don't have to move! They have a retardedly big shield!
    5. Yes warlock have no instant cast spells, you got us!
    6. LOL!
    7. Your group already has 3 mages and 2 shamans. A 6th bloodlust surely is useful!

  6. #186
    Why doesn't everyone in the raid get a blink from the mage? If the mage gets to use my demonic gateway only seems fair I should get get an action button for blink as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyone remember that one spell called Demonic Circle? That was always fun to use.

    If it's "fun" it doesn't belong in the Warlock toolkit

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Your retarded post makes no sense when comparing these two things since Mages are literally >>>>>>>>> Warlocks.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You only played with the worst mages on the planet I guess. Fire AoE annihilates Warlock unless you're autistic.
    Having an Affliction Warlock as a main I can say I never lose to Mages on AoE, but they do destroy me on single target unless I can switch to Destro or Demo, then it's a competition.

  8. #188
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Basically what I see here is "warlocks are bad because they are not OP as fuck", because Fire Mages ARE overtuned without a doubt.

    I would expect Blizz to take Fire down a notch or two.
    So you said before the balancing patch where they left them untouched lol

  9. #189
    It's funny how everyone in this thread can only talk about damage numbers

    The original post listed 7 key points that make his mage more fun to play than a Warlock. But it always comes back to "hurrr I'm not doing enough damage" or "dur get gud do more dmg"

  10. #190
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    So you said before the balancing patch where they left them untouched lol
    Am I some sort of prophet? I said that I expect balance patch that will buff warlocks and nerf fire.

    Buffing warlocks happened (you may latch onto the exact % you expected against what you got, but the fact it happened), fire nerf, surprisingly, did not happen.

    But then, all is in due course. Fire Mages are clearly a step above what things SHOULD be and eventually they will be brought down one way or the other, so there is little point in this thread, as of course a spec that happens to be clearly overtuned is better than a spec that is not. Same with Spriests, Blizz already was about to nerfbat them, but then they realized that nerfing S2M will leave with absolutely nothing, so postponed it to 7.1.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridius View Post
    It's funny how everyone in this thread can only talk about damage numbers

    The original post listed 7 key points that make his mage more fun to play than a Warlock. But it always comes back to "hurrr I'm not doing enough damage" or "dur get gud do more dmg"
    You may be surprised, but in reality that all is smoke in mirrors - if fire mage and warlocks would switch places on teh meters, nobody would give a damn that they don't have easily accessible baseline interrupt.

    I always said this thing - people are dishonest - what everyone here in reality wants is to do bick dick DPS and be a top dog at that in whatever they do, but because it's somehow a shameful thing to admit - everyone wraps it up in some smokescreen of side stuff to make it look legit.

  11. #191
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Am I some sort of prophet? I said that I expect balance patch that will buff warlocks and nerf fire.

    Buffing warlocks happened (you may latch onto the exact % you expected against what you got, but the fact it happened), fire nerf, surprisingly, did not happen.

    But then, all is in due course. Fire Mages are clearly a step above what things SHOULD be and eventually they will be brought down one way or the other, so there is little point in this thread, as of course a spec that happens to be clearly overtuned is better than a spec that is not. Same with Spriests, Blizz already was about to nerfbat them, but then they realized that nerfing S2M will leave with absolutely nothing, so postponed it to 7.1.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You may be surprised, but in reality that all is smoke in mirrors - if fire mage and warlocks would switch places on teh meters, nobody would give a damn that they don't have easily accessible baseline interrupt.

    I always said this thing - people are dishonest - what everyone here in reality wants is to do bick dick DPS and be a top dog at that in whatever they do, but because it's somehow a shameful thing to admit - everyone wraps it up in some smokescreen of side stuff to make it look legit.
    Idk I've been playing destro and always top the damage on ANYTHING that that allows for Wreak Havoc.

    But yet it feels like absolute garbage

    Let's see. Soloing content feels terrible because they don't have a single instant cast that's not tied to a cooldown. Demonology I can cast Doom on everything. I used to be able to Rain of Fire to pull mobs. That felt fun, so now it's gone.

    Taking away Shadowburn means we just spam incinerate any time a boss fight has small adds. And in solo content. It's extremely boring. Why take away the fun feeling from when a mob or player drops below 20%? That's when you feel like a Destro lock.

    Guess I'll cast incinerate instead. Oh wait the mob died before incinerate even reached it well that was fun. God forbid they let us keep shadowburn it's about time they removed it.

    And Demonic Circle? Probably one of IF NOT the most fun spells in this entire game. A spell we've had for 7+ years. And now it's essentially removed given the current spot it's in. I assume that was their plan all along.

    My destro lock used to FEEL good. And don't even get me started on Demo. I'd like metamorphosis and demonic leap back but those are gone for good. Like I said if it's "fun" it doesn't belong in our toolkit.

  13. #193
    Probably already said but.

    We bring the AWESOMENESS to the raid. No raid group is awesome unless there is a warlock in it.

    BTW, in legion, at least PVE wise, our main CC is not fear, is Banish... and Banish is thousands of times better than sheep!

  14. #194
    Deleted
    I think mages just have 1 spec that has no glaring weaknesses and is overturned, but I wouldn't say that for arcane or frost. You can't say mages are op I would say fire is.

    I don't feel warlocks are as bad as is being made out either, destro isn't terrible, demo has its place, I think affliction is out dated, damage over time rarely works the way the game is designed currently, it's all about burst and cleave, things are dead before affliction thinks about doing damage. Your basically waiting for council fights.

    I think one spec is out of line and I would expect it to be reeled in but that doesn't make us bad. We have one really shit spec for pve , one with some issues amd one pretty well rounded spec


    They have cool things we have cool things. We've probably been stripped of top much baseline and been given them as talents... Circle

    Bloodlust in a day and age where they've taken raid wide buffs away is too powerful for a few classes, not in terms if raiding but mythic + at high level so it makes them too highly sought after compared to other classes not just us

  15. #195
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridius View Post
    Let's see. Soloing content feels terrible because they don't have a single instant cast that's not tied to a cooldown.
    Havoc pulls just fine and no CD? Really, sorry, but soloing is like the least of Warlock's issues, let alone Destruction.

    I also think that Shadowburn and Backdraft should have been baseline, but let's not make shit up as we're somehow feeling bad at soloing content?

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Havoc pulls just fine and no CD? Really, sorry, but soloing is like the least of Warlock's issues, let alone Destruction.

    I also think that Shadowburn and Backdraft should have been baseline, but let's not make shit up as we're somehow feeling bad at soloing content?
    What benefit do you get from pulling mobs with havoc? Have you ever played demo or affliction?

  17. #197
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hintzmann View Post
    Lets see
    1. raid wide mobilety in form of gateway
    2. free healthstones for the raid
    3. Combat res.
    4. location based blink if demonic circle is chosen
    5. spells castable on the go depends on spec and talents
    Demo: demonwrath, (shadowflame talent), (implosion talent), and some summons.
    Affliction: Corruptio, Agony, (siphone life talent), (phantom singularity talent), and again certain summons.
    Destro: Conflagrate, Rain of Fire, (shadowburn talent), and again certain summons.
    6. summoning portal.

    And while iceblock sure is stronger on a pure defensive view, it locks you up for the duration and stops you from doing anything while it lasts
    1.no one uses the gateway... because they dont allways remembe its there, and dont want to risk landing on a aoe on the other side
    2.yeah... but if you have 5 locks... you only need 1 to supply healthstones, the other 4 could be mages...
    3.dks, druids, both have combat rez, aswell as hunters if they have a pet that can, also your limited to 1-2 per fight so...
    4.no one chooses that...
    5. TL: DR just because you can press timewarp well running, doesent make it a "movement dps spell"
    demonwrath is horrible, shadowflame you would never use it "just because im on the go" same with implosion, and same with summons...
    uhhh... no... your calling 3 minute cooldown spells "spells good fro casting well moving" yeah no....
    same here, conflage, rain of fire, and shadowburn, you dont just use "cause im on the go" you need them for comboing spells, so you would never just use them to have something to do well moving
    6.yeah... again only need 1 lock for this, so the rest can go mage... and alos there is a stone outside every raid/dungeon so...
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2016-10-11 at 07:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  18. #198
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridius View Post
    What benefit do you get from pulling mobs with havoc? Have you ever played demo or affliction?
    Same benefit as you get with pulling them with Doom? Most mobs die in literally 2 hits, especially to Destruction which does not need to beat around the bush. Point is - you have that spell to pull, so whatever you say is a bunch of baloney and if THAT is not enough - nothing stops you from picking Shadowburn.

    Again, of all the issues - THIS is a non issue, seriously.

    And yes I played Demo enough to invest 17 points into it, I also played it plenty in Beta, mind to shine your holy light on me and explain how it is relevant?

  19. #199
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panta View Post
    Probably already said but.

    We bring the AWESOMENESS to the raid. No raid group is awesome unless there is a warlock in it.

    BTW, in legion, at least PVE wise, our main CC is not fear, is Banish... and Banish is thousands of times better than sheep!
    idk sheep can be used on anything, where banish can only be used on demons,abberations, and elementles

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Same benefit as you get with pulling them with Doom? Most mobs die in literally 2 hits, especially to Destruction which does not need to beat around the bush. Point is - you have that spell to pull, so whatever you say is a bunch of baloney and if THAT is not enough - nothing stops you from picking Shadowburn.

    Again, of all the issues - THIS is a non issue, seriously.

    And yes I played Demo enough to invest 17 points into it, I also played it plenty in Beta, mind to shine your holy light on me and explain how it is relevant?
    most mobs die to 2 hits from demo? what the fuck kinda demo have you been playing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  20. #200
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    1.no one uses the gateway... because they dont allways remembe its there, and dont want to risk landing on a aoe on the other side
    Gateway was a key for Mythic Renferal kill, just sayin'.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    most mobs die to 2 hits from demo? what the fuck kinda demo have you been playing?
    The one that has Implosion... you? You literally herd them, dump HoG on them and Implosion... nothing aside from elites survives that. Should
    I also make amazing discovery for you in how you get shards for HoG?

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