PvP Lost Some Meaning

[solarfallz]

The game had the most people in WotLK and if my memory serves me right they had rating requirements on part of the gear which made a tremendous difference (especially the weapon). That lead to very low participation in pvp which forced the devs to remove any such requirements half way through the expansion. I would consider that to be very much in favour of my argument.

If I remember it incorrectly then please feel free to correct me.

Rating requirements were introduced season 3 (halfway through BC) and were not removed until MOP (season 14 I believe? halfway through MOP)

And by my estimation, Wrath had WAY higher participation than Legion or WoD (even though I personally think Wrath PVP was a dumpster fire, it was better than this).

[Dragoncurry]

Because it's fun to use the gear you earned. It's fun to be able to customize your character and gear it to your playstyle. Most of all, it's fun to kill other players.

Admittedly the current ability/class design (ever since around Wrath times, really) makes it more difficult to overcome gear disparity than it was in the first couple eras of the game, but that's more an issue with the classes and scaling themselves; the solution isn't to just remove gear from PVP, that's a textbook "cut off your nose to spite your face" solution.

You're making zero sense and I will explain the problem why: What do you mean scaling is an issue? You mean from a level 800 ilvl to a 850ilvl since Wrath? They did that so when you got an upgrade in PvE, it FELT like an upgrade, and not like a slight small baby boost.

When you fix the scaling, a 800ilvl FEELS like a 850ilvl. Bro, guess what PvP today is on live? It's fixed the scaling in PvP where someone with 800ilvl FEELS like someone who has 850ilvl give or take 5%. It's LITERALLY what you're wishing it to be.

You could never customize your gear in the past. You were always forced to go X stats for the last 3 expansions with the same exact PvP gear as the person of the same class next to you. Arms warriors go mastery, vers. BM hunters go Mastery, vers. Shamans go...ETC. Every single player Arenaing went the exact same offset piece.

Now, you can literally trade up your talents, and another set of PvP only talents that give you more versatility than ever before TO your playstyle. Every single player has on a different gearset, and one that can actually be customized. We're not forced to have a fucking PvP trinket by default anymore, so we can go whatever trinket we want.

I saw the screenshot you posted and that's all I needed to see. You enjoy farming people with no gear in BGs. Congratulations, you can still do the equivalent. You can go farm level 70s in Northrend, since it's so fun to use the levels you earned getting to 110. Show the world you're boss, just like you showed those kids wearing greens in Arathi. I'm glad that was balanced in your favor at the expense of 15 players...you know...actually playing the game, since it's impossible for someone to fight against that.

Blizzard made competitive BGs so that the only time it's fair to play them is when you do a 10v10 premade Rated BG otherwise, you run the risk of players ruining the game because it's so "fun".

[Deleted]

@Dragoncurry can't agree more. Seems like the people complaining just want the same system of being completely useless once you got to max level, farming BGs while getting stomped until you got gear, then stomping kids in greens and feeling like you're actually good because you massively outgear them. Maybe now they just get stomped every game because they're awful so they blame the new system.

[Maximilorian]

max out legendaries and put pvp set bonuses back (that only work in instanced pvp).

Otherwise pvp gear is just a cosmetic stat stick and its boring as hell for most players, hardly touch pvp now where as i used to pvp only

[Deleted]

max out legendaries and put pvp set bonuses back (that only work in instanced pvp).

Otherwise pvp gear is just a cosmetic stat stick and its boring as hell for most players, hardly touch pvp now where as i used to pvp only

They can't have pvp set bonuses while gear is rng. The gear can be RNG mainly cause it doesn't matter much anymore. If you get strong bonuses back like before it would fuck with anyone who didn't get lucky.

[Deleted]

So you can only enjoy doing content if there is a reward? What a sad mentality, you people shouldn't call yourselves gamers. You are just playing to satisfy some ego issue

[Maximilorian]

So you can only enjoy doing content if there is a reward? What a sad mentality, you people shouldn't call yourselves gamers. You are just playing to satisfy some ego issue

you wouldnt apply this logic to pve content, so why apply it to pvp?

[Deleted]

you wouldnt apply this logic to pve content, so why apply it to pvp?

Same applies to pve content. Reason why you do pve is to get into organized groups and work as a team to overcome a difficult situation (or boss in this case). Gear isn't a reward, it's a gating system to make killing bosses harder. Same as in pvp or in pve, the gear isn't the reward, the kill is.

The real reward or pvp is to outplay your opponent and get the kill, not the gear you get, that's what so many were asking for, remove the importance of gear for pvp so everyone has the same stats template (with some minor % because of gear ilevel). That way gear isn't the main focus for pvp players, now it's more skill dependant.

This system is a lot better now. If you join in full green you won't get stomped because of someone overclassing them with 50 ilevels, now they still have a small dissadvantage but the gap isn't that big anymore. Now you just have to overclass other players with skills.

[Maximilorian]

Disagree with the above, if gear isnt the reward then why have it drop at all? Dont kid yourself because you disagree with what i am saying. MMORPGs survive by the carrot on a stick. Also a fully kitted out mythic raider versus a fresh 110... Who do you think will win that battle?? Guy with high artifact and 10% more stats or the fresh level 10 arti with base template?

Its good that the gap isnt as big, but saying the system is good as it is is a fallacy.

[Deleted]

Disagree with the above, if gear isnt the reward then why have it drop at all? Dont kid yourself because you disagree with what i am saying. MMORPGs survive by the carrot on a stick. Also a fully kitted out mythic raider versus a fresh 110... Who do you think will win that battle?? Guy with high artifact and 10% more stats or the fresh level 10 arti with base template?

Its good that the gap isnt as big, but saying the system is good as it is is a fallacy.

That gap is tiny compared to previous expansions, and easy to overcome with skill.

[Deleted]

In pve situation, if you say gear is the reward you are playing this game for the wrong reasons. Sure it's nice to have extra gear but that extra gear is just there to make you and your group stronger to defeat the next encounter you have to face. If the next encounter is still to hard for your group you have to work together to give everyone extra power (with gear) to defeat that encounter.

In pvp this isn't the case at all. It's all about you vs me with the ability's of our class and the skills of we as a person. The only sad thing is that they still have those small % extra stats on your template because of higher ilevel. Hope they remove it soon and give everyone the same stats template when they enter pvp.

[Maximilorian]

The only sad thing is that they still have those small % extra stats on your template because of higher ilevel. Hope they remove it soon and give everyone the same stats template when they enter pvp.

i would be happy with this change, maxed artfacts as well because farming them up in pvp would be insanely time consuming. Then some nice cosmetics for good ranked play + usual mounts and titles

[Rolex Snob]

Disagree with the above, if gear isnt the reward then why have it drop at all? Dont kid yourself because you disagree with what i am saying. MMORPGs survive by the carrot on a stick. Also a fully kitted out mythic raider versus a fresh 110... Who do you think will win that battle?? Guy with high artifact and 10% more stats or the fresh level 10 arti with base template?

Its good that the gap isnt as big, but saying the system is good as it is is a fallacy.

The 10% is only if the other player is 900 ilvl which is very far away. For every ilvl over 800 you get 0.1% increase in stats. If pvp gear basically rewards 840 gear then by the time the raids/content are available for the average pver to get 900ilvl it will be easy as can be to at least gear a fresh player to 850 within the first week.

In the history of WoW, a fresh top level player was NEVER EVER EVER EVER able to compete so why is everyone acting like the new system is terrible in terms of competitiveness? It's more competitive than ever. At least now, a fresh level 110 actually does have a snowballs chance in hell to compete with an ilvl900 player.

How quickly do we forget that a fresh level 100 player was in greens/blues pre legion and going into BG's/Arena against players with 50-70 ilvl advantages.

[solarfallz]

You're making zero sense and I will explain the problem why: What do you mean scaling is an issue? You mean from a level 800 ilvl to a 850ilvl since Wrath? They did that so when you got an upgrade in PvE, it FELT like an upgrade, and not like a slight small baby boost.

When you fix the scaling, a 800ilvl FEELS like a 850ilvl. Bro, guess what PvP today is on live? It's fixed the scaling in PvP where someone with 800ilvl FEELS like someone who has 850ilvl give or take 5%. It's LITERALLY what you're wishing it to be.

You could never customize your gear in the past. You were always forced to go X stats for the last 3 expansions with the same exact PvP gear as the person of the same class next to you. Arms warriors go mastery, vers. BM hunters go Mastery, vers. Shamans go...ETC. Every single player Arenaing went the exact same offset piece.

Now, you can literally trade up your talents, and another set of PvP only talents that give you more versatility than ever before TO your playstyle. Every single player has on a different gearset, and one that can actually be customized. We're not forced to have a fucking PvP trinket by default anymore, so we can go whatever trinket we want.

I saw the screenshot you posted and that's all I needed to see. You enjoy farming people with no gear in BGs. Congratulations, you can still do the equivalent. You can go farm level 70s in Northrend, since it's so fun to use the levels you earned getting to 110. Show the world you're boss, just like you showed those kids wearing greens in Arathi. I'm glad that was balanced in your favor at the expense of 15 players...you know...actually playing the game, since it's impossible for someone to fight against that.

Blizzard made competitive BGs so that the only time it's fair to play them is when you do a 10v10 premade Rated BG otherwise, you run the risk of players ruining the game because it's so "fun".

"You're making zero sense and I will explain the problem why: [insert completely incoherent paragraph]". Literally what?

So you're trying to tell me I could never customize my gear, yet if you're observant you can actually see I'm not wearing a PVP trinket in the screenshot I posted. I think I'm wearing 2 ToT trinkets in this one if I remember correctly. In Cataclysm I wore 2-piece tier gear on a lot of classes, and deathwing weapons too. It wasn't really until WoD that I was ever wearing the exact same thing as everyone else.

And no, killing low level players is not the same as killing people in a BG. They signed up for the BG, they know what they're in for. They also don't have ridiculous miss-chances; in general their moves actually work unlike a low level trying to kill a higher one. It's completely within their power to get better gear, it is not my fault that I use better gear that I've put time in to obtain. I've probably played more green-geared BGs than everyone you know combined, it's not a big deal to be undergeared in BGs if you're competent, particularly because you know you're going to be rewarded and soon have better gear. If anything, PVP gearing has been too fast in recent expansions. I fully geared every class in WoD despite most of my play time being on one already-geared class.

But seriously, I love how idiots always throw out this implication that I'm somehow "bad" at the game for wanting to kill players in BGs. How many 50+ KB BGs have you done, especially with zero deaths? Any at all? Do you know what it's actually like to combine skill and gear to overcome otherwise impossible odds like 1v5s? Do you enjoy PVP at all, for that matter?

Finally, if it's any consolation for your undergeared-hurt-feelings, I also used to play "serious" "fair" arenas a long time ago. The observant player might notice the mount in my top-right action bar slot, even.

[Deleted]

Disagree with the above, if gear isnt the reward then why have it drop at all? Dont kid yourself because you disagree with what i am saying. MMORPGs survive by the carrot on a stick. Also a fully kitted out mythic raider versus a fresh 110... Who do you think will win that battle?? Guy with high artifact and 10% more stats or the fresh level 10 arti with base template?

Its good that the gap isnt as big, but saying the system is good as it is is a fallacy.

So by your logic its better to return to the old system where a full geared raider/arena pvper was 50 ilvl above you and easily had 50% difference in power. I'm sure it was close to 100% for some expansions such as WOTLK.

PvP still sucks because classes are not balanced around pvp and the gameplay is catered to raiders. Thats why there are still so many CC and interrupts in pvp despite ruining the experience.

Gear is just another issue on top of it. Diminishing the importance of gear is already a good step forward.

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i would be happy with this change, maxed artfacts as well because farming them up in pvp would be insanely time consuming. Then some nice cosmetics for good ranked play + usual mounts and titles

A good cosmetic thing that doesn't involve powering up would be to provide different spell effects as a reward. For example unlocking fireballs with a different look (like lava or bigger in shape, with smoke around), or having a different looking shield for priests, new animations for melee/casting,etc..

[Mafic]

So by your logic its better to return to the old system where a full geared raider/arena pvper was 50 ilvl above you and easily had 50% difference in power. I'm sure it was close to 100% for some expansions such as WOTLK.

PvP still sucks because classes are not balanced around pvp and the gameplay is catered to raiders. Thats why there are still so many CC and interrupts in pvp despite ruining the experience.

Gear is just another issue on top of it. Diminishing the importance of gear is already a good step forward.

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A good cosmetic thing that doesn't involve powering up would be to provide different spell effects as a reward. For example unlocking fireballs with a different look (like lava or bigger in shape, with smoke around), or having a different looking shield for priests, new animations for melee/casting,etc..

What you said about WotLK PVP gearing is completely wrong.

By the final season of WotLK most players could obtain most of the high level PVP gear with the exception of some off set pieces that still required rating. The gear gap was never 50% for players unless they rolled into a BG with full greens.

And since PVE WotLK featured face rolling heroics and the badge system, even casual players stepping into PVP had decked out epics. And there was the Quel delar epic quest chain that also provided a top line epic weapon for players in WotLK.

[meathead]

Unrated PVP - TERA
Lord of the Rings
RIFT
FFXIV (uses base gear, which everyone has)
Blade and Soul - have to grind some abilities though

Probably a few others but I don't feel like looking.

RIFT?are you fing joking? i plat rift and the game is dead ever since 3.0 and wow copied its dumb ass rng loot system.

raid gear = bis for all game play-if you dont raid you will not have bis gear-the bolstering system is broken and there is a massive difference between a fresh max player and a raided geared player.

there is no equal footing in rift at all

[Mafic]

Rift PVP died when they made PVP gearing irrelevant and allowed PVE raid gear to dominate...you know what Legion is doing to WoW PVP system?

[Deleted]

melee mongo fest that you can see now will continue through all xpac

3 global cooldowns and i was dead. As a hunter, used turtle&heal. still died in like 5 sec. this is after how many months of beta testing.. or right

[Mafic]

3 global cooldowns and i was dead. As a hunter, used turtle&heal. still died in like 5 sec. this is after how many months of beta testing.. or right

And the template system.

They had 9 months of alpha + beta + PTR and Holinka only started tuning the template system like a month out from Legion launch and several times the last few weeks.