[Helpful] "Is it an Upgrade?"

[Tuskchi]

Here is a link to a video from Preacher, which I found incredibly useful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwCjp_pLHAc

He is talking about the current state of the game, where the average (and even advanced) player struggles to fully understand if a higher ilvl always means a dps/hps/tank upgrade. This is something which Blizzard seems to be insisting upon, but for many of you who have brain, I'm sure have noticed the difference when you throw out the most important secondary stats for your spec, just so you have a higher ilvl.

This is a situation which I often relate to, because I play all 3 of my Monk specs. Maining WW and having BrM and MW gear as well. I was looking at the Blue trinket from Violet Hold ( ilvl 830 ) which gives me + ~900 mastery and the proc which is based on stack generation. On the other hand, I did a mythic this week I got an 840 trinket from NL, which gives 900-1000 crit and the Landslide proc.

WW stat priority is Mastery > Crit > Haste > Versatility, so it's a tough choice. Because I'm over 45% Mastery and my crit was in the 20s percentile, I decided to op for the higher ilvl, consider that the more agility overall would make for the 3% drop in my Mastery. So right now I'm 31% crit with 45% mastery.

WW mastery is very specific, because in a good player's hand, if u do the rotation 3% more mastery means 3% more damage. So the question is, is the Landslide proc and a bit more crit > 3% more damage on all abilities?
Other similar question is - Do you pic a relic that gives you +10 ilvls, or you pick a relic that gives you 5% more damage on FoF and/or RSK

Choices like this although being interesting, require you to spend a lot of time with the game, which you might not have ...

Preacher points out an interesting topic about having these Spec/Class specific websites, that go really in depth ... What would be such a place for monks?
I'm not talking about some Icy-veins or other multi-class guide website .... I'm asking for a truly dedicated place for monks.

[Shakugan123]

WW stat priority is Mastery > Crit > Haste > Versatility

That's not quite the stat priority of WW and I'm going to assume that came from noxxic (based on looking at noxxic's priority for WW).

If it was indeed from noxxic I would strongly advise you to look elsewhere for information (look at last quote). Noxxic is widely known for being inaccurate/ misinformation.

Do you pic a relic that gives you +10 ilvls, or you pick a relic that gives you 5% more damage on FoF and/or RSK

Both; depending on which relics we're talking about the choice between grabbing a low tier relic that's an ilvl increase vs. a stronger relic (FoF) changes.

Preacher points out an interesting topic about having these Spec/Class specific websites, that go really in depth ... What would be such a place for monks?
I'm not talking about some Icy-veins or other multi-class guide website .... I'm asking for a truly dedicated place for monks.

walkingthewind [.] com (Sorry, can't post links w/ my current post amount).

[Deleted]

While i don't know of monk specific sites for trinkets simcraft is a good indication of whether or not a trinket is better or worse. Just in case simcraft fucks up a certain trinket you can do this:
1. Simcraft
2. Training dummy
3. Compare damage percentage from trinket between the 2 fights
4. If it's the same simcraft was correct

If I recall correctly simcraft didn't model this trinket correctly which led to it being very overrated for enhancement shamans but if you do it as per above you'll notice things like this.

[Tuskchi]

You would say Mastery is not #1 stat for WW? I'd be amazed at the competency level of the person who wrote a WW guide stating otherwise

[ErothTV]

Here is a link to a video from Preacher, which I found incredibly useful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwCjp_pLHAc

He is talking about the current state of the game, where the average (and even advanced) player struggles to fully understand if a higher ilvl always means a dps/hps/tank upgrade. This is something which Blizzard seems to be insisting upon, but for many of you who have brain, I'm sure have noticed the difference when you throw out the most important secondary stats for your spec, just so you have a higher ilvl.

This is a situation which I often relate to, because I play all 3 of my Monk specs. Maining WW and having BrM and MW gear as well. I was looking at the Blue trinket from Violet Hold ( ilvl 830 ) which gives me + ~900 mastery and the proc which is based on stack generation. On the other hand, I did a mythic this week I got an 840 trinket from NL, which gives 900-1000 crit and the Landslide proc.

WW stat priority is Mastery > Crit > Haste > Versatility, so it's a tough choice. Because I'm over 45% Mastery and my crit was in the 20s percentile, I decided to op for the higher ilvl, consider that the more agility overall would make for the 3% drop in my Mastery. So right now I'm 31% crit with 45% mastery.

WW mastery is very specific, because in a good player's hand, if u do the rotation 3% more mastery means 3% more damage. So the question is, is the Landslide proc and a bit more crit > 3% more damage on all abilities?
Other similar question is - Do you pic a relic that gives you +10 ilvls, or you pick a relic that gives you 5% more damage on FoF and/or RSK

Choices like this although being interesting, require you to spend a lot of time with the game, which you might not have ...

Preacher points out an interesting topic about having these Spec/Class specific websites, that go really in depth ... What would be such a place for monks?
I'm not talking about some Icy-veins or other multi-class guide website .... I'm asking for a truly dedicated place for monks.

Welcome to the Monk forums!

First of all;
I am a WW monk player, so I will mostly speak about this spec, sorry that I can't relate to the other ones.


The stats You have written are not the true ones and it may be that none on the websites will be, because it is always depended on Your gear and the weights may change for You.
In general the stats are going like:

Agility > Mastery > Versatility >= Critical Strike > Haste

But, as I said, You should sim Your stats Yourself, take out the weights and take them into an addon like pawn, so it will tell You if that's an upgrade or not, if You don't want to calculate over over and over again, but sorry, You will have to if You want to squeeze the best out of You.
I am sending You over to this LINK for more information regarding calculating Your stats weights.
You may also run http://askmrrobot.com to quickly check from upgrades.


For us, the secondary stats are lower than the primary, so except the jewels (neck, rings) in most of the situations higher ilvl means higher dps gain. This can be not true with items which have sockets in it, and especially for the jewels I have mentioned.
For example, a 825ilvl neck with socket will be better than 840 (taking under consideration that they have the same stats),

Here's another quote from WalkingtheWind.com:

Gems vs Item Level
This is always a difficult question to answer because each slot has its own stat budget. So I’ll make a list. This list assumes that secondary stats you would use for gems are worth 60% of Agility. This is how many item levels a gem socket is worth for each slot, assuming a 150 secondary stat gem:
Helm/Chest/Legs – 5 ilvl
Neck/Ring – 20 ilvl
Shoulders/Gloves/Waist/Boots – 7 ilvl
Cloak/Bracers – 9 ilvl

Regarding relics it is somewhat the same as with the situation above. Some traits are better at lower ilvl than some shit traits with better ilvl.

Relics

There can be some trade-off between trait power and ilvl gain. Fists of the Wind is the top trait for both single target and AOE situations. Here’s what ilvl gain the other traits need to be better than Fists of the Wind:

Fists of the Wind
Power of a Thousand Cranes (+3 ilvl) (AOE only)
Rising Winds (+4 ilvl)
Strength of Xuen (+7 ilvl)
Tiger Claws (+8 ilvl)
Inner Peace (+9 ilvl)
Everything else (+16 ilvl)

As You can see, I posted most of the information from the webiste dedicated to WW monks http://walkingthewind.com, which is ran our Monk moderator. I do strongly recommend that one. There's everything You need and even more.
http://icy-veins.com went from the bottoms to really good site and information there is most of time accurate.
But I really, really, really can't say that about noxxic.com - avoid this, please.

If there's something more I could add from me - let me know!

[LavenderBee]

You would say Mastery is not #1 stat for WW? I'd be amazed at the competency level of the person who wrote a WW guide stating otherwise

Aaaand it's not.
You see, if you actually did some research, you would've been amazed of how fucked up stat prio became in legion, where one may think they don't have a "soft cap", so X stat at the start of the expansion will be best for the whole gearing process, but if you actually SIM your character right now with "scaling" option enabled, you will be in for quite a surprise. With 45% mastery your best stats are crit and versa, by alot, haste is always #4 if you have like 6-10% of it.
I was pretty sure mastery is "the stat" and maxxed it to almost 50%, then i simmed my character and got weights like 6.5 crit 6.8 versa 5.3 mastery and felt pretty stupid for not simming it earlier.
Also i can asure you, walkingthewind is the best source of WW related things, just look at the theorycraft around SCK and Serenity on the site, Babylonius is a godsend, bless his soul.

[Deleted]

Too bad the guy behind Sacredduty sorta stopped. That was a great protection paladin blog.

[Kioga]

You would say Mastery is not #1 stat for WW? I'd be amazed at the competency level of the person who wrote a WW guide stating otherwise

-Blood elf: Mastery 4500 above Versatility, Versatility 800 above Crit rating; haste anywhere between 5% and 10%

-Other races: Mastery 4500 above versatility, Versatility 400 above Crit rating; haste anywhere between 5% and 10%

If you have 4500 mastery over Versa already but not 400 Versa over crit, then Versa will move up and become your top stat in terms of what to add to your gear.

http://www.walkingthewind.com/stat-weights/

Stat weights are not valid forever, just for the next small portion of stats that you gain. They don’t dictate replacing items, just what stat you want next. Best practice is to sim your character regularly. If you want to determine if one item is better than another, sim your character with that socket empty and use the stat weights generated to compare them. Take all stat weights with a grain of salt. Scroll up slightly to see the stat gaps that help dictate what stat is better than another.

[Zoopercat]

Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. You can compare item upgrades in less than 60 seconds using the AMR simulator. You don't need to download anything. You don't even need a login. It's all done on our web servers (free).

Here's a super short video to show how to do it. I spend a lot of time answering 'what is better' questions, and it takes me about 1 minute, truely, to load a character and test it. Hope this helps, and hit me up with any questions.

If you don't like videos / can't watch it right now, here's a picture to help.

[Extremities]

Here is a link to a video from Preacher, which I found incredibly useful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwCjp_pLHAc

He is talking about the current state of the game, where the average (and even advanced) player struggles to fully understand if a higher ilvl always means a dps/hps/tank upgrade. This is something which Blizzard seems to be insisting upon, but for many of you who have brain, I'm sure have noticed the difference when you throw out the most important secondary stats for your spec, just so you have a higher ilvl.

This is a situation which I often relate to, because I play all 3 of my Monk specs. Maining WW and having BrM and MW gear as well. I was looking at the Blue trinket from Violet Hold ( ilvl 830 ) which gives me + ~900 mastery and the proc which is based on stack generation. On the other hand, I did a mythic this week I got an 840 trinket from NL, which gives 900-1000 crit and the Landslide proc.

WW stat priority is Mastery > Crit > Haste > Versatility, so it's a tough choice. Because I'm over 45% Mastery and my crit was in the 20s percentile, I decided to op for the higher ilvl, consider that the more agility overall would make for the 3% drop in my Mastery. So right now I'm 31% crit with 45% mastery.

WW mastery is very specific, because in a good player's hand, if u do the rotation 3% more mastery means 3% more damage. So the question is, is the Landslide proc and a bit more crit > 3% more damage on all abilities?
Other similar question is - Do you pic a relic that gives you +10 ilvls, or you pick a relic that gives you 5% more damage on FoF and/or RSK

Choices like this although being interesting, require you to spend a lot of time with the game, which you might not have ...

Preacher points out an interesting topic about having these Spec/Class specific websites, that go really in depth ... What would be such a place for monks?
I'm not talking about some Icy-veins or other multi-class guide website .... I'm asking for a truly dedicated place for monks.

Those stat priorities are way off...

[Tuskchi]

How about no? I'm talking about Secondary stats and yes, the first two of the secondary stats are Mastery and Crit respectively ... as if not being right about the "haste and versatility order" , let's wait a few more days until CJL starts taking energy and we will start discussing the energy regeneration ... Even if that doesn't happens to be the case, mixing the last two is definitely not " way off "


To all the others who actually had helpful comments, thank you for sharing. I'll definitely check the tools and blogs and u linked will come back with questions most likely!

[Kioga]

How about no? I'm talking about Secondary stats and yes, the first two of the secondary stats are Mastery and Crit respectively ... as if not being right about the "haste and versatility order" , let's wait a few more days until CJL starts taking energy and we will start discussing the energy regeneration ... Even if that doesn't happens to be the case, mixing the last two is definitely not " way off "

To all the others who actually had helpful comments, thank you for sharing. I'll definitely check the tools and blogs and u linked will come back with questions most likely!

Who are you trying to refute here? No one said anything about CJL, nor should it have any meaningful impact to a WW since we only use it a filler to keep up "Hit Combo" if you don't have enough haste to keep HC going through other attacks. CJL hits like a wet noodle compared to our auto-attacks, so if you have to use it, you are suppose to cancel it immediately after it triggers the HC stack.

You keep insisting our stats are hard set to mastery > crit > haste > versa but offer no evidence to corroborate that claim nor have you said how you came up with that order. The community has tried to explain that you are opperating under a false understanding of WW stat weights and answered your question about where to find the most detailed info on WW Monks. IF you are conducting your own sims (which everyone should be) then yes, it's possible that is your current stat priorty but that does not mean that priority applies to all WW Monks at all gear levels.

Walkingthewind.com provides detailed analysis and sims to back up what we are telling you and is considered the default source for WW Monk discussions.

[ZazuuPriest]

This is a classic case of "I think there is something wrong here" and when that belief is validated, with sources too, and it challenges the persons status quo they get mad. IMO fuck Tuskchi, let them be bad.

[Kioga]

This is a classic case of "I think there is something wrong here" and when that belief is validated, with sources too, and it challenges the persons status quo they get mad. IMO fuck Tuskchi, let them be bad.

Probably another Preach plant since the first thing he did was link a vid promoting Preach.

[Babylonius]

Preacher points out an interesting topic about having these Spec/Class specific websites, that go really in depth ... What would be such a place for monks?
I'm not talking about some Icy-veins or other multi-class guide website .... I'm asking for a truly dedicated place for monks.

I'll only speak to this, since other people have pointed out the errors with your other points. If you spent some time looking around, for example; in the dedicated threads for each spec on this site, you would have found the links to the dedicated places for monks. We have Discord and one or two very excellent websites and blogs dedicated to each spec, including my own site, WalkingTheWind.com.

You may have though its an interesting topic, but its not a problem for Monks since we have those places.

- - - Updated - - -

You would say Mastery is not #1 stat for WW? I'd be amazed at the competency level of the person who wrote a WW guide stating otherwise

Seeing as I'm the person who wrote a WW guide stating otherwise (somewhat), I'd be more than happy to discuss with you why Mastery is not always #1 stat for WW. Or you could read my guide and understand for yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

How about no? I'm talking about Secondary stats and yes, the first two of the secondary stats are Mastery and Crit respectively ... as if not being right about the "haste and versatility order" , let's wait a few more days until CJL starts taking energy and we will start discussing the energy regeneration ... Even if that doesn't happens to be the case, mixing the last two is definitely not " way off "

To all the others who actually had helpful comments, thank you for sharing. I'll definitely check the tools and blogs and u linked will come back with questions most likely!

It will be more than a few days until CJL starts taking energy, and that will have absolutely 0 effect on haste's rating and position as the least useful stat. Mastery, Crit, and Vers are ranked depending on the stats you currently have, so they can change positions quite easily. I highly recommend checking out the tools and resources available before you start saying that they're wrong.

[Rakoth]

Seeing as I'm the person who wrote a WW guide stating otherwise (somewhat), I'd be more than happy to discuss with you why Mastery is not always #1 stat for WW. Or you could read my guide and understand for yourself..

I was wondering, the simcraft website you link in WalkingTheWind seems to be shutting down. Beotorch is on hiatus. At this point, we should run Simulationcraft ourselves? Is there an alternative? How does askmrrobot compare?

[Babylonius]

I was wondering, the simcraft website you link in WalkingTheWind seems to be shutting down. Beotorch is on hiatus. At this point, we should run Simulationcraft ourselves? Is there an alternative? How does askmrrobot compare?

AMR works fine, but dont try to compare SimC to AMR directly. They're different tools made by different people.

SimulationCraft works just like Beotorch, Beotorch was just a short cut.

[Rakoth]

AMR works fine, but dont try to compare SimC to AMR directly. They're different tools made by different people.

SimulationCraft works just like Beotorch, Beotorch was just a short cut.

Yeah, I didn't mean to compare them, simply to know what was a good alternative.

[Zoopercat]

@Rakoth I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. One thing to point out, if you're using a simulator for stat weights, we add extra information into the reports for Ask Mr. Robot. Not only do we generate weights, but we sim every item with a proc (like trinkets), at all iLevels. And we include that information in the stat weight report so that when you use it to rank gear, all of the items with procs are ranked directly from those simulations

That's really handy since items with procs don't rank well with stat weights. So the AMR 'weights' let you rank both regular items AND proc items