[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Segus1992]

Well by same logic our AoE is not fine because of how important those bonus 45% to DS are.
Eh. What I mean is I think there is barely any consideration regarding ability-traits interaction from bzzd part. I have no proof to back up such a claim, si this is purely an opinion.

That is not at all the same logic.

With Crusade you reach full stacks after 10-15 seconds, meaning you have 5-10 seconds left without any traits, meaning the traits give up to 15 seconds extra of 52.5% Haste & Damage, meaning those 6 trait points give you more of a bonus than a separate Crusade cooldown would.

In other words, not comparable.

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It was mentioned a couple pages back that we should take to the official forums to protest the Crusade changes. I just want to mention there are several threads on them, but relatively few responses. If we want Blizzard to reconsider this I think we should respond on those threads and emphasize how much freaking fun the haste buff from Crusade is.

Go for it. I'm on EU so I have literally zero voice on the official forums anyway.

[Morally Grey Storm]

To be precise, traits give up to additional 7.5 seconds.
Relics are purely random and are out of equation, as chances of you getting 3 decent +aw duration ones are somewhat low.
Numbers might be not that close, but still.
I still stand by opinion that this logic applies to both cases, and feth me backwards if we aren't actually attempting to engage in a somewhat civil discussion.

[OrcsRLame]

Update on my earlier post: It seems up to 18%, haste is absurdly valuable, our best stat by far barring weapon dps. After 18%, it becomes by far our worst stat and after tinkering with enchants and food buff, I got the value down to 1.4 per point, about 1/5th the value of mastery. Sometime between 18% and 23%, the value of haste goes up drastically. This is for the Zeal+BoW build. Other talent combinations will produce radically different results.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Still, the lower the haste, more often and awkward the prolapses in rotation. I think that's where the 30% haste nonsense came from.
Could you try utilizing rotation with such an amount and reporting your feelings?

[OrcsRLame]

Still, the lower the haste, more often and awkward the prolapses in rotation. I think that's where the 30% haste nonsense came from.
Could you try utilizing rotation with such an amount and reporting your feelings?

Are you asking me to play with low haste or very high haste? I'm not sure I could even reach 30% haste with my current gear. Maybe I have some random shit in my bank that could get me there, but I doubt that would produce dps that is competitive with my current gear.

Concerning low haste, I've played with that before. Actually raided mythic with 17% haste yesterday, and my damage was quite competitive. There were some gaps in the rotation, but that mainly just meant that I had to play a bit more carefully, making sure that I'm not capped on HP when judgment was timing out so I could spam generators to reduce downtime.

[vacor]

I leave for a few hours and come back to this.

Anyways while in class I was considering a few things
1. Keep current 7.0 version of crusade. But remove 15 stacking cap.( best version ever)
2. Instead of the stacking mehcanic being + dmg and healing, make it add haste, ( this allows the possibility of hitting stack numbers that put it ahead of baseline AW, gives us the option to be a ranged. However I see potential problems with regards to pvp with this.
3. Make execution sentence baseline, have new crusade make execution sentence instant cast. ( would require a new level 15 talent)
The 3rd option allows the level 100 talent row to consist of a passive dos gain, a burst dps gain, or a nuke type spell, 3 varied and interesting options.

[dalborga]

Still, the lower the haste, more often and awkward the prolapses in rotation. I think that's where the 30% haste nonsense came from.

IIRC, the 30% came from someone calculating that it'll reduce judgment CD to a point that, when the buff ends, there's only one GCD before judgment is out CD.

[Litelii]

Concerning haste, should We still be trying to reach 30% or not. Also does anyone know at what crit level virtues blade would out damage BoW?

[Tonyman64]

Concerning haste, should We still be trying to reach 30% or not. Also does anyone know at what crit level virtues blade would out damage BoW?

Concerning haste, you should sim to see which stats are best. It changes a lot as your gear changes. The only rule of thumb is that mastery is worst until higher gear levels. Keep in mind that the stats are 'relatively' similar in weight on average (as evidenced by them dancing around eachother) and you probably won't lose heaps of DPS have a little more haste than is optimal. I have more haste than sims say I should because I find the rotation to be much, much more enjoyable. The tiny DPS gain from perfectly optimal stats isn't worth sitting there waiting for something to do, at least for me.

[Marrel]

Concerning haste, should We still be trying to reach 30% or not. Also does anyone know at what crit level virtues blade would out damage BoW?

Haste breakpoint is no longer 30%, it's now 20-22%.

Regarding VB vs BoW, I believe the crit breakpoint is somewhere around 25% but I'm not certain. At the very least we know it's worth it at 27% because looking at Notcal's armory he has 27% crit and is using VB.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Haste breakpoint is no longer 30%, it's now 20-22%.

Regarding VB vs BoW, I believe the crit breakpoint is somewhere around 25% but I'm not certain. At the very least we know it's worth it at 27% because looking at Notcal's armory he has 27% crit and is using VB.

I'm at 33 crit and 23 haste, Simcraft still tells me bow is better

[Deleted]

The 30% haste figure is:

a) nice if you have the legendary cloak,
b) the point above which you really don't want to go.

You want to have as much haste as feels comfortable, which will generally be at least 20%. Siming it is tricky because the value of haste bounces up and down like a bugger and is devalued during Crusade; so where burst phases are key, such as on Il'gynoth, it's arguably less important. Once you are comfortable, then crit and versatility is more important (but versatility is a bit rare in EN).

[arrav]

I have been hearing that the New "haste cap" is at 22%. What is the reason for this (assuming its true)? Also what are the new stat weights if that's the case (assuming that's it's been figured out already.

[Deleted]

I have been hearing that the New "haste cap" is at 22%. What is the reason for this (assuming its true)? Also what are the new stat weights if that's the case (assuming that's it's been figured out already.

It entirely depends on the rest of your stats and talents. It's just a bugger to figure out because it jumps around due to judgment window and GCDs.

Should be possible to figure out those based on amount of TVs and dead dps time and checking how those change as you add haste

[Ryve]

Not so much having issues in overall damage, but has anyone else found that PvE ret is squishy as all hell? It feels to be like they're tuned around having kings, might and wisdom up at the same time. And, even then if you take more damage than King's bubble protects for, I find my health pool decreasing much more rapidly on my ret than any other class I'm playing with the buffs up.

[Snegovik]

just you wait till I start joking about jesuz, colored and queers.

Greatly off-topic, but main 2 reasons for me to hop on this thread is to see any 7.1 updates and read Storm's posts, the latter never get old lol =)

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I don't see how it's over. Nothing changed for ret in terms of pvp talents that I can see.

If anything, 7.1 will result in Ret's buff vs mage/hunter/any range class who kites well, cuz the way it stacks with lawbringer

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Question: is Lawbringer (PvP talent) also being changed in 7.1?

If not i see some potential in it combined to the new Crusade.

no info that it does, 3x rets inc in 3s

[OrcsRLame]

Haste breakpoint is no longer 30%, it's now 20-22%.

Regarding VB vs BoW, I believe the crit breakpoint is somewhere around 25% but I'm not certain. At the very least we know it's worth it at 27% because looking at Notcal's armory he has 27% crit and is using VB.

I'm pretty sure there's actually a lot of breakpoints. Haste goes through peaks and valleys like every 3-5%, crit is pretty stable, and BoW vs VB has more to do with your haste than your crit, and also whether you're using TFoJ vs Zeal.

It all gets really fucked when you start examining shit in detail.

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The 30% haste figure is:

a) nice if you have the legendary cloak,
b) the point above which you really don't want to go.

You want to have as much haste as feels comfortable, which will generally be at least 20%. Siming it is tricky because the value of haste bounces up and down like a bugger and is devalued during Crusade; so where burst phases are key, such as on Il'gynoth, it's arguably less important. Once you are comfortable, then crit and versatility is more important (but versatility is a bit rare in EN).

Holy shit it's Thete.

Preach on! People will actually listen to you! Please say some shit about mastery too, because it's bad but not even half as bad as most people think it is. People act like if they have a single point of mastery their dps will drop by 50% and a drunk George W. Bush will jump out of their monitor wearing a speedo to murder them with kitchen scissors during progression.

[Leodric]

Hey guys,

a question especially targeted to our simulation craft experts:

How reliable are the SIM-iterations on wowprogress? I have compared some characters (not only rets, but also other classes) and the values seem to be kinda strange in my eyes. I know that the iterations are based on a ST fight with 1000 iterations, but still I cannot really believe it 100% on that specific site.

If some people do not know what I am talking about. Just search for your character on wowprogress and there you can see the SimDPS right below the itemlvl-window.
Thanks again for the answers and time some people put into this thread, especially to Laurcus.

[OrcsRLame]

Hey guys,

a question especially targeted to our simulation craft experts:

How reliable are the SIM-iterations on wowprogress? I have compared some characters (not only rets, but also other classes) and the values seem to be kinda strange in my eyes. I know that the iterations are based on a ST fight with 1000 iterations, but still I cannot really believe it 100% on that specific site.

If some people do not know what I am talking about. Just search for your character on wowprogress and there you can see the SimDPS right below the itemlvl-window.
Thanks again for the answers and time some people put into this thread, especially to Laurcus.

I think you're right to be skeptical of them. My last sim on Simcraft was ~386k. My SimDPS on wowprogress is 348186. On mythic Ursoc towards the end of the fight I'm ~360-400k. The top simming character on wowprogress is an arms warrior at 514727 dps. On warcraftlogs, the top arms warrior is 448519 dps, and the top overall is a shadow priest doing 551266 dps. By comparison, the top simming shadow priest is at a mere 397623.

The wowprogress sim does not seem very accurate when it comes to matching other sims or reality. I would disregard it until I see evidence that there's something of value there.

[stolker]

I don't know why there are still retards telling people about any caps or 'breaking points'. Jesus fucking christ, you just need to spend 1 minute and sim your fucking character with various equipment variations yourself, and you'll see that even long after 30% haste becomes the best stat on and off again, just like all the other stats, because that's how the math of those stats works out. Just stop giving advice, posting this kind of bullshit with such a high post count is incredibly embarassing imo.