Russia, China to Mull Joint Response to US Missile Shield

[Ulmita]

Russia, China to Mull Joint Response to US Missile Shield





MOSCOW — Amid escalating U.S.-Russia tensions, the Russian military said Tuesday it will cooperate with China on efforts to fend off a threat posed by the U.S. missile defense program.

Lt. Gen. Viktor Poznikhir of the Russian military's General Staff accused the Pentagon of developing the shield as part of planning for a possible first nuclear strike. "The missile defense system considerably shifts the balance of offensive weapons, allowing the planning of a more efficient pre-emptive strike," he said at a security conference in China.

Russia and China have frequently expressed concerns about the U.S. missile shield, but Poznikhir dropped any diplomatic reticence in his blunt speech that reflected a widening rift between Moscow and Washington.

"Russian military experts believe that the U.S. hopes to gain the capability to strike any region of the world, including Russia and China, with nuclear-tipped missiles with impunity," he said. Poznikhir argued that Washington's calculus would be to launch a first disarming strike and then rely on the missile shield to shoot down the remaining enemy missiles launched at the U.S. in a retaliatory strike.

He used an analogy of two gladiators armed with swords facing each other.
"If one of the gladiators takes up a shield, it will give him a marked advantage and make him think that he would be able to win, particularly if he strikes first," he said. "What would another gladiator do? Naturally, he also would pick up a shield and also a longer and stronger sword. This is what happening now as a result of the U.S. missile deployment."
Poznikhir said that both Russia and China have taken countermeasures in response to the U.S. missile defense program, but he didn't elaborate.

He noted that Russia and China held drills earlier this year to simulate a joint action to fend off missile strikes under the protection of a missile defense system near their borders. Poznikhir added that Moscow and Beijing will conduct a similar exercise next year.
Like other Russian officials before him, Poznikhir shrugged off U.S. statements that the missile defense system is intended to fend off threats from North Korea and Iran. He argued that the planned U.S. system will include hundreds of missile interceptors — a capability far exceeding the need to deal with any potential threats from Iran and North Korea.

"Under the pretext of countering the North Korean and Iranian 'missile threats,' the system intended primarily for engaging Russian and Chinese missiles is being developed," he said.
"The illusion of invulnerability and impunity under the missile defense umbrella would encourage Washington to take unilateral steps in dealing with global and regional issues," Poznikhir said. "That can objectively lead to lowering the threshold of nuclear weapons use to pre-empt the enemy's action."

He added that governments in Europe and Asia which agreed to host elements of the U.S. missile shield had made their people "hostages of the U.S. unpredictable action."

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...le-shield.html

It seems like that missile technology will be the next thing that Russia will be transferring to China. Good job USA!!
As Ulmita has been saying: Keep pushing and you'll finally get them to ally.

[Zeta333]

Or maby they are trying to defend against countrys that constantly threaten to use nukes or respond to any form of protection with threats of attack or reprisal. Sorry russia but your the one loosing your mind and making people think your going to reform the soviet union.

[Kellhound]

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...le-shield.html

It seems like that missile technology will be the next thing that Russia will be transferring to China. Good job USA!!
As Ulmita has been saying: Keep pushing and you'll finally get them to ally.

It says nothing about transferring missile technology, it is talking about running minor joint exercises.

This is Russian propaganda at its best. Even fully operational, the ABM defenses the US is building have no chance of stopping a full Russian response. What it does do is remove the delusional threat of a limited nuclear strike.

[Skroe]

It says nothing about transferring missile technology, it is talking about running minor joint exercises.

This is Russian propaganda at its best. Even fully operational, the ABM defenses the US is building have no chance of stopping a full Russian response. What it does do is remove the delusional threat of a limited nuclear strike.

Bingo

That said @Ulmita, I sincerely hope Russia and China will spend the next 30 years and drop hundreds of billions of dollars into their own national ballistic missile defense shield. Really. I hope they do the US a favor and utterly rape their budgets for something hysterically far beyond their technical means and throw money down a black hole.

And I mean real national missile defense, not a glorified anti-aircraft-first system like the S-400/S-500.

Besides if I were Russia, I would worry much more about the US deploying Prompt Global Strike over the next decade and a half, to add hundreds of more global-reach targets that must be accounted for by Russia's limited number of launchers.

Russia completely blew it by agreeing to US demands that PGS missiles not be counted as a "launcher" under NewSTART. It gave the US to take the 700 launchers we're allowed (that Russian missiles target) and one day pile on hundreds more. They can't hit em all!

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...nd-chi-429952/
http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/9...s-research.htm

US Outspending China and Russia in Hypersonic Weapons Research
By Arthur Dominic Villasanta | Aug 22, 2016 04:22 AM EDT

The United States remains top dog in developing hypersonic weapons and is pouring money into a series of multimillion dollar projects despite apparently huge recent strides made by China and Russia.

The Pentagon continues to lavish money into hypersonic research with the goal of building hypersonic missiles that hurtle towards distant targets at between Mach 5 (6,000 km/h) to Mach 20 (25,000 km/h). Funding for hypersonic research jumped 50 percent in the Department of Defense budget request for 2017. The U.S. Air Force plans to test a hypersonic missile by 2020.


Among others, the Pentagon is funding the Lockheed Martin Falcon Hypersonic Technology Vehicle 2 (HTV-2) program; the Raytheon Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC) and the Raytheon/Lockheed Tactical Boost Glide (TBG) program.

HTV-2 is a multiyear research and development effort to increase the technical knowledge base and advance critical technologies to make long-duration hypersonic flight a reality. The Falcon HTV-2 is an unmanned, rocket-launched, maneuverable aircraft that glides through the Earth's atmosphere at Mach 20.
HAWC is a joint DARPA/ Air Force effort to develop and demonstrate critical technologies that enable an effective and affordable air-launched hypersonic cruise missile. It will pursue flight demonstrations to address three critical technology challenges: air vehicle feasibility, effectiveness, and affordability.
TBG aims to develop and demonstrate technologies to enable future air-launched, tactical-range hypersonic boost glide systems. In a boost glide system, a rocket accelerates its payload to high speeds. The payload then separates from the rocket and glides unpowered to its destination.

The U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) gave Raytheon $20 million and Lockheed $24 million for TBG. Raytheon is also investing tens of millions of its own dollars into hypersonic research.

"These are very specific point design weapon systems. We have picked design points where the technology is available today and we can put these things together as systems now," said Thomas Bussing, vice president of Raytheon's Advanced Missile Systems.

He said Raytheon is working on two kinds of hypersonic missiles. One is a boost glide system that rides a rocket into space, then reenters the atmosphere and glides to its target at up to Mach 18 (22,500 km/h). The other is an air breathing missile that zooms forward at Mach 10 path (12,000 km/h).
These programs are part of the overarching Prompt Global Strike (PGS) program to develop a system that can deliver a precision-guided conventional weapon airstrike anywhere in the world within one hour.

Such a weapon might also be useful during a nuclear conflict, and replace the use of nuclear weapons against 30% of targets.

The PGS program encompasses conventional surface-launched missiles and air- and submarine-launched hypersonic missiles.

Unlike both China and Russia, however, the U.S. has said its hypersonic warheads or hypersonic glide vehicles won't pack nuclear warheads.

China and Russia, especially the latter, are developing hypersonic vehicles for the express purpose of being armed with nuclear warheads. Russia claims its Yu-74, a hypersonic glider that can be equipped with a thermonuclear warhead, is operational. The new ICBM intended to carry it won't be ready until 2020, however.
Russian media says this ultra-maneuverable Hypersonic Glide Vehicle (HGV) can bridge the 2,500 kilometer air gap between Moscow and London in 13 minutes. It claims the HGV can penetrate NATO's missile defense system and the U.S. THAAD missile defense system.

The weapon's ability to pierce western defenses is due mostly to its speed. The Yu-74 tears through the air at Mach 10 (12,400 km/h).



Read more: http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/9...#ixzz4MrJvJlc5

[Ulmita]

It says nothing about transferring missile technology, it is talking about running minor joint exercises.

Russian's have every right to be worried about the shield, and so are the Chinese. As for the missile technology it is already happening.
They will be getting S-400 and SU-35. That means they get best a/a system in the world to copy as they please and the AL-41F1 engines to propel them decades ahead since they chinese don't build their own engines.

Be sure they will be getting some of Russia's ABM systems.

[Flarelaine]

At this point I'm just relieved Russian nukes have been removed from Hungary.

[caervek]

Russian's have every right to be worried about the shield, and so are the Chinese. As for the missile technology it is already happening.
They will be getting S-400 and SU-35. That means they get best a/a system in the world to copy as they please and the AL-41F1 engines to propel them decades ahead since they chinese don't build their own engines.

Be sure they will be getting some of Russia's ABM systems.

This isn't really anything new, China have been producing Russian planes under license for decades, their J-5 is a MiG-17, their J-7 is a MiG-21, their J-8 is derrived from the MiG-21, the Su-15 and the Ye-142.

Hell in 2003 they introduced a "brand new" plane called the JL-9 which is a massively modernised MiG-21.

[Crispin]

Afaik the US held military exercises this year with China and Australia right?

[Ulmita]

This isn't really anything new, China have been producing Russian planes under license for decades, their J-5 is a MiG-17, their J-7 is a MiG-21, their J-8 is derrived from the MiG-21, the Su-15 and the Ye-142.

Hell in 2003 they introduced a "brand new" plane called the JL-9 which is a massively modernised MiG-21.

They are just giving them an airplane that owns every 4rth ++ gen out there
a pair of engines that fall just a tiny bit behind F-22 engines in thrust

and world's best a/a system, missiles, radars, electronics etc

Thats 20 years worth of R&D for the Chinese as they don't produce their own engines.

[Mihalik]

They are just giving them an airplane that owns every 4rth ++ gen out there
a pair of engines that fall just a tiny bit behind F-22 engines in thrust

and world's best a/a system, missiles, radars, electronics etc

Thats 20 years worth of R&D for the Chinese as they don't produce their own engines.

Won't get much into this discussion because it universally devolves into nationalist shit flinging.

But, the Russians selling new jets to the Chinese is actually an attempt by Russia to maintain its stranglehold over certain areas of the Chinese defence industry. The Chinese have been for years investing heavily in acquiring the capability to build things like jet engines, carriers, avionics.

If they keep buying from Russia, that process will slow down. So if anything its an attempt by Russia to keep its lucrative defence contracts.

[caervek]

So if anything its an attempt by Russia to keep its lucrative defence contracts.

It's actually just an attempt to get some fast cash. They know this means China will never buy more because they can just reverse engineer tomorrow what they buy off Russia today. But they want the cash now and don't care if it hurts their long term earning potential (when potential customers turn to cheaper Chinese options).

[Ulmita]

So Ulmita, are you ready to drop your argument that the missile defence sites would be used for offensive strikes now?

Gabriel

Thaad != Aegis

[Darsithis]

That said @Ulmita, I sincerely hope Russia and China will spend the next 30 years and drop hundreds of billions of dollars into their own national ballistic missile defense shield. Really. I hope they do the US a favor and utterly rape their budgets for something hysterically far beyond their technical means and throw money down a black hole.

Seems to tickle a memory of the USSR doing the same thing prior to their collapse.

[caervek]

Seems to tickle a memory of the USSR doing the same thing prior to their collapse.

IIRC it was in the 70's? Russia and the USA signed an agreement on missile shields limiting them to one each or something (the treaty Putin was complaining about the USA ditching to build more shields), IIRC Russia built theirs protecting Moscow and the USA outsmarted them and built theirs protecting a big ICBM site lol.

[Independent voter]

Russia doesn't have any money.

China could loan Russia some money maybe.

[Ulmita]

Russia doesn't have any money.

China could loan Russia some money maybe.

Russia has more money than most EU countries and one of the world's smallest debt to GDP ratio out there.

[Deleted]

They will be getting S-400 and SU-35. That means they get best a/a system in the world to copy as they please and the AL-41F1 engines to propel them decades ahead since they chinese don't build their own engines.

If true what use is Russia for China now? Russia have alredy transferd most if not all of the USSR legacy teconolgy, rocket, spaceship, nuclear reactors, fighters, missils, Russia have noting left, and China is buildig ther own jet engines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_WS-10

They want a weak Russia who begg them to buy Russia raw materials below cost.

Be sure they will be getting some of Russia's ABM systems.

you whine about the US ABM system and complaining about how upset the balance, but se no problem in ABM system then Russia bulding it when shall you demand evidence that the Russian system will not be use as a offensive wepon?

- - - Updated - - -

Seems to tickle a memory of the USSR doing the same thing prior to their collapse.

Fole me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me, Star War was a great bluff, but that Russia fall for it again!?

[Mihalik]

It's actually just an attempt to get some fast cash. They know this means China will never buy more because they can just reverse engineer tomorrow what they buy off Russia today. But they want the cash now and don't care if it hurts their long term earning potential (when potential customers turn to cheaper Chinese options).

Reverse engineering is one thing. Just because you know how something works, it doesn't mean you can make more of it. Behind any piece of advanced hardware there is an extremely long logistical chain.

First you need to build the things that you need to build the things that build the thing you need and so on. That's the part China is currently working on. On the short term it is cheaper to buy more of the end product than it is to build the entire logistical chain behind it.

The question is- Will China continue to invest in its arms manufacturing industry, or will they just spend more on buying a lot of Russian stuff?

That remains to be seen, as China still has a lot of modernization to do, and the 20% yearly economic growth bonanza is over.

- - - Updated - - -

Russia has more money than most EU countries and one of the world's smallest debt to GDP ratio out there.

The Russian economy is behind that of Italy. And barely above that of Spain in size. But who are you proud to be "wealthier" than? Netherlands? A country of 17 million folk?

The size of Russian debt is irrelevant in the context that it is currently in an adversarial position with the actual lenders who would take that into account, and its access to the financial markets is restricted.

I am unsure what the point of your statement is.

[Ulmita]

If true what use is Russia for China now? Russia have alredy transferd most if not all of the USSR legacy teconolgy, rocket, spaceship, nuclear reactors, fighters, missils, Russia have noting left, and China is buildig ther own jet engines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_WS-10

They want a weak Russia who begg them to buy Russia raw materials below cost.

Russia has vast untapped natural resources and also is willing to create a military alliance. They also have their backs in UNSC

[Kellhound]

Russian's have every right to be worried about the shield, and so are the Chinese. As for the missile technology it is already happening.
They will be getting S-400 and SU-35. That means they get best a/a system in the world to copy as they please and the AL-41F1 engines to propel them decades ahead since they chinese don't build their own engines.

Be sure they will be getting some of Russia's ABM systems.

They already had a SAM system superior to the S-300 in many regards, and even some versions of the S-400.

China actually does build their own engines, they are just inferior to Russian ones. Having new engines to look at will not resolve the main issue China has with them.

Remember, the more tech China gets, the more sales Russia loses long term.

- - - Updated - - -

Afaik the US held military exercises this year with China and Australia right?

The US had a massive joint exercise with multiple countries this year: RIMPAC16