Casuals are going to burn out...

[Deleted]

Not a whine post, although it may sound like one. Background: ex-hardcore player, casual player nowadays.
==

Some of you might remember the days of the "Gearscore" bs. You couldn't get into a pug unless you had a gearscore over X (or, as it is nowadays, ilvl over X)

Nothing wrong with that, but back in those days, you had a limit of how much gear you could grind. You could maybe improve your gear once during the raid reset. That was it.

But nowadays, there's no limit to the grinding. Since you never change your weapon, you can't get the best raid drop and say "right, I'm done with this for 3 months". You can't play "hardcore" for 3-4 weeks, gear up and go casual until the next raid tier. It struck me today that I don't have any decent alts (I got a couple of 110 alts around 850, but their artifacts are shit). I don't have time to play them because I'm too busy farming AP nonstop. The so-called "catchup mechanism" is bullshit. Having tested this on my alts, I can confirm that it's not working, nor is it ever going to work in its current form. I can't even research regular stuff (you know, the 5 tiers that end with being able to wear 2 legendaries) in my order hall on one of my alts because I'm out of order resources - never mind researching AK. The way to get more order resources? World quests.

...but I don't have time for them. In the last 2 days, I've been grinding AP on my main. WQs, checking every WQ reset I could check, daily heroic, mythic+ runs, the whole thing. All because I needed 105k AP for a trait that would increase my dps by 50-100k. I know 105k doesn't sound like a lot. But when WQs give you 900-1200 AP each, do the math - it took me two days (as a dps, finding a mythic+ group takes a while, so there's a lot of "downtime"). Obviously I "needed" the trait (I'm playing in a very casual guild, but we still run mythic raids and have killed the first 3 bosses). Even so, I'm now at 25 traits...and some people in my guild (those who abused the mythic+ chests AP thing) are at 29. There's no way in hell I can catch up to them. NO.WAY.

But the typical casual players are not going to get into normal/heroic pugs anymore when they have the time, because they're so far behind "hardcore" players. If, back in the gearscore days, you couldn't get into a raid because it required "gs > 8400", you might now get into a raid as a casual player only to be kicked after the first boss (or first wipe) when they notice that you're doing half the dps of another player of the same class, as he/she has X more traits than you do ( and keep in mind this is before people actually reach +5% , +50% dmg etc)

It looks to me like even casual players are forced to go hardcore. Keep spamming heroics and mythic+, maybe you'll get a legendary (I got 0 so far and I've spammed quite a few of them, doing +10 nowadays). Keep doing WQs left, right and center - you're already behind "serious" players, fall just a bit more behind and you're a goner.

Back in the "Gearscore" days, you could only spam X dungeons/week (or, a more recent example, in WOD, you could only get X valor points/week). There's no such limit with the world quest/mythic spam. So you either catch up or get left behind. It used to be that you could take a break - say, 3,6,9 months - then come back to a guild of friends, get carried through a couple of raids and be "up to speed" in terms of gear. You'd still be a bit behind other players, but wasn't a tragedy. Nowadays, not so much - "quit" for 3 months and you'll never catch up, even with the AK system in place. You won't even have enough WQs/mythic+ groups to get the AP you need...you'll still be on your 26th trait when the rest of the guild is on 34+10. Obviously no way to bring your gear to date.

I think this will effectively split the casual population into two groups: those who burn out from trying to keep up and those who get left behind.

Opinions?

[Underverse]

Welcome to the new age of Warcraft. Now all we do is pull levers for rewards.

[Twistedelmo]

You don't need to keep your followers on missions 24/7. you can use quite a big chuck of your resources from the missions.

Only send out your followers for missions worth doing and save up resources till you can research.

once you you're done you have no need for resources other then missions (unless blizzard implements something else)

[Orange Joe]

Stop trying to farm so much AP. there come a point when it isn't worth it until your research catches up.

[Raiju]

As @OrangeJoe said - if you don't need something NOW there's not much reason to farm for it in legion. The expansion is designed to progressively reward more as time goes on regardless of how much you actually play. I'm pretty certain at this point legendary pity timer is based on real world time passed rather than anything else, and the same system is shown in the artifact knowledge, the gating, etc.

[A dot Ham]

Not a whine post, although it may sound like one. Background: ex-hardcore player, casual player nowadays.
==

Some of you might remember the days of the "Gearscore" bs. You couldn't get into a pug unless you had a gearscore over X (or, as it is nowadays, ilvl over X)

Nothing wrong with that, but back in those days, you had a limit of how much gear you could grind. You could maybe improve your gear once during the raid reset. That was it.

But nowadays, there's no limit to the grinding. Since you never change your weapon, you can't get the best raid drop and say "right, I'm done with this for 3 months". You can't play "hardcore" for 3-4 weeks, gear up and go casual until the next raid tier. It struck me today that I don't have any decent alts (I got a couple of 110 alts around 850, but their artifacts are shit). I don't have time to play them because I'm too busy farming AP nonstop. The so-called "catchup mechanism" is bullshit. Having tested this on my alts, I can confirm that it's not working, nor is it ever going to work in its current form. I can't even research regular stuff (you know, the 5 tiers that end with being able to wear 2 legendaries) in my order hall on one of my alts because I'm out of order resources - never mind researching AK. The way to get more order resources? World quests.

...but I don't have time for them. In the last 2 days, I've been grinding AP on my main. WQs, checking every WQ reset I could check, daily heroic, mythic+ runs, the whole thing. All because I needed 105k AP for a trait that would increase my dps by 50-100k. I know 105k doesn't sound like a lot. But when WQs give you 900-1200 AP each, do the math - it took me two days (as a dps, finding a mythic+ group takes a while, so there's a lot of "downtime"). Obviously I "needed" the trait (I'm playing in a very casual guild, but we still run mythic raids and have killed the first 3 bosses). Even so, I'm now at 25 traits...and some people in my guild (those who abused the mythic+ chests AP thing) are at 29. There's no way in hell I can catch up to them. NO.WAY.

But the typical casual players are not going to get into normal/heroic pugs anymore when they have the time, because they're so far behind "hardcore" players. If, back in the gearscore days, you couldn't get into a raid because it required "gs > 8400", you might now get into a raid as a casual player only to be kicked after the first boss (or first wipe) when they notice that you're doing half the dps of another player of the same class, as he/she has X more traits than you do ( and keep in mind this is before people actually reach +5% , +50% dmg etc)

It looks to me like even casual players are forced to go hardcore. Keep spamming heroics and mythic+, maybe you'll get a legendary (I got 0 so far and I've spammed quite a few of them, doing +10 nowadays). Keep doing WQs left, right and center - you're already behind "serious" players, fall just a bit more behind and you're a goner.

Back in the "Gearscore" days, you could only spam X dungeons/week (or, a more recent example, in WOD, you could only get X valor points/week). There's no such limit with the world quest/mythic spam. So you either catch up or get left behind. It used to be that you could take a break - say, 3,6,9 months - then come back to a guild of friends, get carried through a couple of raids and be "up to speed" in terms of gear. You'd still be a bit behind other players, but wasn't a tragedy. Nowadays, not so much - "quit" for 3 months and you'll never catch up, even with the AK system in place. You won't even have enough WQs/mythic+ groups to get the AP you need...you'll still be on your 26th trait when the rest of the guild is on 34+10. Obviously no way to bring your gear to date.

I think this will effectively split the casual population into two groups: those who burn out from trying to keep up and those who get left behind.

Opinions?

TL;DR

I've been casual for years, since the beginning of Cataclysm. I enjoy Legion and its mechanisms immensely. Actually I find myself more motivated to make the jump and effort to do organized raiding again. We will just have to see.

[Sansnom]

Opinions?

Some people wanted grind. Blizzard listen. We now have grind.

To them, grinding is essential to an MMO. They felt that an MMO is not about logging on for a few hours per week, raiding, dungeons, whatever. And that is it. To some, this is "too casual".

Seriously though, the grind for AP. Is it really necessary? I mean does it affect other aspect of the game for you? This something only you can answer for yourself.

[Freedom]

I don't think you are casual if you're killing Mythic bosses, let alone three of them. And real casuals play less than I or my guildmates do - think like an hour a day on a weekday. For them, Legion is going to be fine as far as burning out goes.

[oldgeezer]

The casual population is a very broad spectrum. But that said, I'd have thought that a good definition of 'casual' is a player who is not necessarily trying to keep up?

I don't really see it as a problem.

[Requiem94]

I like the idea that if I keep playing I can potentially keep earning X, Y, and Z throughout the week instead of having a hard cap of something per week like it was in Wrath. Blizzard is slowly getting away from the mentality of protecting the player from himself. If Joe Smoe wants to play 100 hours a week then let him, he's a customer fully capable of making his own choices.

[Ashnazg]

You feel like you need to grind every possible AP drop, but you don't. Unless your guild is forcing you to do it, you don't need to have every single point on your artifact taken. If your 25th point gives you 50k dps (which sounds absurdly high to me, but w/e), 105k AP isn't a huge deal - a few nights of mythic+ runs. You will certainly not see similar gains from every point beyond that (and if you do, you optimized your artifact path atrociously), and it really isn't that big of a deal for a casual guild if you have your artifact at 25 and someone else at 35. You're looking at what, ~20% dps difference at most, assuming optimal play, and this is an extreme scenario.

[Biged781]

Do you really need to grind AP like this? Is it going to significantly affect your raid progress? If not I'd back off a bit and just be ok with the fact that some people will have higher artifact levels.

[Cynical Person]

Good, fuck the casuals.

INFRACTION

[Deleted]

Who are these casuals? Are they good in computer games?

[Deleted]

I agree with you on most parts, but you are WAY overstating the importance of artifact level. I really doubt a single gold trait would give you 100k more dps.
Also the hidden traits only give 5% extra dps for the first point, all the rest are 0.5% extra dps. All 20 traits gives you 14.5% dps increase. If you put at least 1 point into it for the 5%, you will be 9.5% dps behind someone who maxed his weapon. Which is a big enough deal in mythic, but won't make you do half the dps of another guy.

[Teca]

Good, fuck the casuals.

This comment made me choke on my coffee. lol

[Paperfox]

I have always thought of myself as a casual player, if i had directed my time to one toon then I would (maybe) been in mythic in WoD. But I love my alts - got my 15th 100 during the invasion - and they were what I would call decently geared.

I'm agreeing with the OP. So much grinding, need this, need that. Gotta get this other thing. So far I've only got one toon to 110 and the grind is starting to feel like work. Did one WQ last night and by the time i was done I felt that I had paid for the resources.

[Aleksej89]

Why are you people so obsessed with grinding and reaching the outmost limits, especially if you do not like how that process is implemented in legion?
I can understand if you are competing for the top 10 guilds in the world, but otherwise it just seems kind of pointless to force yourself through something you dislike that much.

Personally i play as much or as little as i want, as long as it is fun.
If it becomes grindy and annoying i just do something else.

But you go right ahead if you like torturing yourselves by grinding every atom of numerical power even though you got no objective need for it.

[Deleted]

Stop trying to farm so much AP. there come a point when it isn't worth it until your research catches up.

Which is also stupid becouse it shows that our progression si in hands of developers and no in our. They hold our hands entire progression and telling is now you do this and now this.

[Deleted]

Good, fuck the casuals.

No elitism here. Move along.