Are all dk now enemies/traitors to the horde?

[Deleted]

The funny thing is, many of the RP Paladins I know on the Aldor left the Argent Crusade or dislike them because of their neutrality towards the Forsaken. The Paladin of a Friend of mine was a member of the Argent Crusade, but left it behind and began disliking it because they did nothing to safe the humans in Lordaeron.

haha, makes sense.

Just one thing because it feels many get this wrong
Lordearon = Tisifal Glades, Wester, Eastern plaguelands and north half of Silverpine forest.

Gilneas = Gilneas, Southern Silverpine forest
Alterac Valley = Semi-unclaimed but undergaurd by Lordearon
Stromgarde = Arathi Highlands (still find trolls confusing, feels like their should be vast plains that acces arathi highlands all the way to ghostlands)
Dalaran = Dalaran City

Hillsbrad = ? I don't know, it could have been all part of stromgarde but part was receded and put under DAlaran City state. It might be that after Warcraft 3 the alliance army under Lordearan control was mainly watching Hillsbrad now as seen in Warcraft 3 campaign. This zone is kind of fluctuating having had many different origin of people in it. Southshore was basically formed by refugee Stormwind citizens.
It was never oficial part of Lordearon kingdom. One big thing that helped form Lordearon was it being far away from Stromgarde ruling arm. Most human kingdom originated from Stromgarde if I understand the history correctly.

I wouldnt be surprised if Arathi highlands is the worst represented zone ingame compared to it's lore.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Hillsbarad is a former part of the human kingdom of Lordaeron.

[Deleted]

Hilsbrad was Lordaeron. The Militia wore the Tabard of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, the blue double-headed Eagle on white ground.

[Melsiren]

You don't quite get the point that most of them are human beings who religiously despise things like necromancy and plagues, not some robots? Like, I don't know how your immersion works, but I certainly couldn't have played a Argent Crusade Paladin after Cataclysm, without him becoming a fallen Paladin.

I can see a few Argent Crusaders deserting and fighting the Forsaken, but they wouldn't last long.


During Cataclysm I roleplayed a Argent Crusader who was very vocal about how upset he was with how Tirion was rebuilding the Plaguelands but not bringing to fight to Deathwing or the cultists.

I can easily see that same mold fitting a Argent Crusader who was very disgruntle, over not being able to bring the Forsaken to "justice". I can even see a character leaving the Crusade to pursue said "justice". However..... long as the Forsaken are allied/part of the Horde the Crusade won't do shit, because the Crusade relies on the support of both the Alliance and the Horde.

I know you don't like that M-Ra, and I won't debate it with you since it will very much so derail this thread.


On the topic of the OP, yeah the KoEB should at the very least be distrusted now by pretty much everyone. However, I have little faith the story line will be pursued much futher

[Highwhale]

Ebon Blade is least involved in the war against the Legion out of all Class Orders. Other than their dungeon quests they don't even fart in the Legion's general direction. And number-wise they are teeny-tiny.

Yeah but you have to admit what EB located themselves near Tomb of Sargeras. Our class hall in shortest distance from main Legion HQ.

I can't remember exactly what he says but Thass pretty much tells you that the Ebon Blade doesnt care about Koltira, and that he is asking the Deathlord as a personal favor.

Lies. Thassarian say what EB many time polite asked Sylvanas to free Koltira but she ignored them.

OP - I always counted DKs as mercenaries who offered their services to A/H. Every Death Knight put EB and its interest above those two factions. Dont forget - Death Knights are pariah in Azeroth and in hour of need can count only on each others.

[Deleted]

The magi of Ambermill were trying to help the Alliance take over lordaeron, the Forsaken killed them. The humans of Hillbarad had been fighting for years with the forsaken and were part of the Alliance, the Forsaken killed them. The Argent Crusade is neutral, and the Forsaken havent attacked them. If the people of Hillsbarad wanted peace with the forsaken. joining the Argent Dawn would have been the way to do it.

Where do you get this information? have you played vanilla?
These were alliance quests involving forsaken:
- Killing a lich that was somehow connected to forsaken (we had to summon it?)
- Independant alliance Archmage investigating forsaken activity in Arathi highlands....they were creating a new poison and adventurers stopped them
- Intercepting a heavily gaurded message runner on the roads (basically kill it and take his letters).

Horde:
Arathi highlands:
- Attack a big collective of farms
- Attack the Stromgarde soldiers in Stromgarde
- Intercept a heavily gaurded message runner on the roads (basically kill it and take his letters)

Hillsbrad:
- Poison the dwarves in the bunker........Cataclysm showed everyone died their
- Summon a lich into hillsbrad
- Attack a mine
- Attack the village just south of Dalaran (poisoning the dog and killing key people their)
- Attack Ambermill

Non of these were footholdings were actively fighting the forsaken, they mostly ignored the horde partly because the 'Horde had changed' and they had other problems to focus on. Also notice how the horde focused on civilians and their homes.

Another part Wow vanilla 4 years have passed since the events of Warcraft 3 etc.
Another note is that Hillsbrad and Stromgarde felt somewhat disconnected from the alliance. They wern't part of stormwind and didn't feel like they were actively part of the alliance. They had their own problems and came accros as if they were allies with the alliance like neutrals are. (basically allies but not part of alliance)
Still not sure what to think of this element.

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Hilsbrad was Lordaeron. The Militia wore the Tabard of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, the blue double-headed Eagle on white ground.

When was this?
I know hillsbrad couldnt have been part of lordaeron in Warcraft 2. Their would be no way Stromgarde would have allowed Lordearon to gain that territory.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Hillsbrad:
- Poison the dwarves in the bunker........Cataclysm showed everyone died their
- Summon a lich into hillsbrad
- Attack a mine
- Attack the village just south of Dalaran (poisoning the dog and killing key people their)
- Attack Ambermill

You leave out the quests where the Forsaken had you kill several Alliance members for killing Forsaken

You also take the town registry that shows they are part of the Alliance and that they were trading supplies with them.

Hecular wasn't a lich, he tried to become one but he was not.

They obviously were fighting the Forsaken, an Alliance quest back in classic has you kill a Forsaken messenger in hillsbrad to see what they are up to,

Most of the Forsaken quests involve crippling their means of producing supplies, food, iron etc so they can't get any stronger.

Another part Wow vanilla 4 years have passed since the events of Warcraft 3 etc.
Another note is that Hillsbrad and Stromgarde felt somewhat disconnected from the alliance. They wern't part of stormwind and didn't feel like they were actively part of the alliance. They had their own problems and came accros as if they were allies with the alliance like neutrals are. (basically allies but not part of alliance)
Still not sure what to think of this element.

Hillsbrad was Alliance, Stromguard was doing its own thing.

- - - Updated - - -

When was this?
I know hillsbrad couldnt have been part of lordaeron in Warcraft 2. Their would be no way Stromgarde would have allowed Lordearon to gain that territory.

around the 2nd war.

[Deleted]

When was this?
I know hillsbrad couldnt have been part of lordaeron in Warcraft 2. Their would be no way Stromgarde would have allowed Lordearon to gain that territory.

Classic WoW, the Guards wore the Tabard of Lordaeron. I'm pretty sure they're also doing this in Hillsbrad of the Past.

[Deleted]

Classic WoW, the Guards wore the Tabard of Lordaeron. I'm pretty sure they're also doing this in Hillsbrad of the Past.

hmmm bit. Southshore was mostly populated by Stormwind. It could be after Warcraft 3 it was mostly populated by refugee Lordearon.

As i also said it could be a result of the weakened state of Stromgarde that resulted in Lordaeron who was the main body of the alliance army took it mostly underguard.

Lordearon started far away from Stromgarde to escape it's rulling arms with mountains between them. I do believe Dalaran was founded before Lordearon.
It's unlikely for Stromgarde to allow Lordearon to expand like this being in a gap between Stromgarde and Dalaran. Also controlling a possible tradeline.

The most likely possibility for lordaeron pressence is that they took up the management of the area to accomedate the STormwind refugees or did the management through the alliance army after warcraft 2 because Stromgarde was too weakened on it's own. But that still doesn't make it an official part of lordaeron and a weird claim to make.
I could see civilians who prefered lordearon rule over stromgarde to want to be part of them. Which makes it more word of mouth than it being officially part of lordaeron.

I could be wrong but hoping for some convicing argument.

[Mehrunes]

Koltira had the orders to take Andorhal for the Forsaken. To that end, he had to get the rest of the Scourge out, which he did. While doing that, Alliance forces were there too. After the fight against the Scourge both sides were kind of winded and both generals agreed upon a ceasefire, which was the right direction to go if you were going to give your own forces a chance to recover from a battle that had just taken place.

Forsaken don't tire. They had no need to recover. And Koltira's orders didn't include making any deals with the Alliance. There's a reason why he tried to hide this truce and why he was wordless when Sylvanas told him she knows about it.

While it is ofc ok to call out your general for some serious mishaps and the fact that he had no kind of intelligence gathered from the Alliance forces and simply relied on Thassarians word that there would be a ceasefire, it was still only a failure on his part and by no means treason. And brainwashing someone into a mindless state was still considered evil at that point by the forsaken in general, but that was exactly what Sylvanas said she was going to do.

There's no evidence of any brainwashing having taken place.

Breaking into undercity to get koltira is an internal horde matter (the player character is a horde champion) or an alliance infiltration act, but not an open assault by one faction (ebon knights) upon the other (horde).

The player character is the Deathlord of the Ebon Blade. It is Ebon Blade action upon the Horde.

To be fair, those are both good ideas.
A) There's literally no reason NOT to bring Tyrone back. We need him. There's at least one other death knight who was able to still use holy powers (he was even part of the original horsemen, and unlike that guy who was forced to do arthas' bidding, a risen tyrone would be given free will by the ebon knights), so there's obviously no compatibility issue with holiness and deathknighthood. The only thing standing in the way is people being whiny and not WANTING to use the tools we have available.

The Light itself disagrees. And there's no guarantee Tirion would be able to use the Light as an undead. I mean, he'd be strong, but that would be a given even with him being just a normal DK.

To be fair, it was stupid of us to just sneak into there instead of talking to the paladins first and trying to argue and convince them how important tyrone is ("bro, either you raise him or we do, we need him back" or somesuch).

And that's the problem with the Ebon Blade. They don't talk, they just do whatever they want even if it means attacking other factions. Even in case of Koltira, where they did talk, it's kinda unlikely they had chances to discuss it again post Legion invasion and prior to that Sylvanas had no reasons to let him go. Who knows, maybe "we need all the troops we can get" would have convinced her.

B) Worthless criminals do make for decent enough frontline soldiers (numbers are something we desperately lack compared to the legion), if you don't trust them make 'em into ghouls, but either way any help is appreciated against the legion.

Anduin wouldn't agree to making them ghouls, especially since without Forsaken cooperation he'd have to rely on the Death Knights who make their ghouls mindless. And the problem with most likely undisciplined mooks is that the Dreadlords will raise them as ghouls themselves.

And you know what? Both of those extreme-sounding things aren't nearly as unethical as the stuff that illidan did in outland "for the sake of fighting the legion", yet people here in the forums rush to defend him very readily and get all mad at past-us for killing him (or at altruis for having ethics and rebelling against him).

I'm not really a fan of the recent Illidan developments.

i think that canonically a dk forsaken never did the quests in andorhal. after all they are 1° generation forsakens, meanwhile in that battle fought only the heroes generation trained after the fall of lich king. and probably for a DK view point an abomination is nothing more than a replaceable siege weapon. but effectively a DK forsaken is a bit strange in this situation D:

Well, while the zone flows straight from Tirisfal and new Forsaken, other characters still can do the questlines. Most of the Forsaken NPCs involved are most likely old Forsaken given their position in the military.

[Aquamonkey]

I do believe Dalaran was founded before Lordearon.

Chronicle says Dalaran was founded after Lordaeron, but it was the first to break free of Arathor and gain autonomy. This is a retcon.

[Deleted]

Forsaken don't tire. They had no need to recover. And Koltira's orders didn't include making any deals with the Alliance. There's a reason why he tried to hide this truce and why he was wordless when Sylvanas told him she knows about it.




There's no evidence of any brainwashing having taken place.

......

His orders also didn't include the Alliance, as the Forsaken were fighting the Scourge at the time. And while they don't tire, they do get injured and have to be stitched back up or bring in reinforcements.
And his being speechless? Well, I guess you'd be speechless too if Sylvanas showed up being furious at you. He was trying to cover up his blundering, I won't deny that, but Sylvanas, as any other Forsaken and Koltira himself was oblivious to the fact, that the breaking of the ceasefire had not been a military act and that it was just some farmers running rampage, then being backed up by the army. It was blundering, not treason.

That there was no brainwashing, we may assume by judging Koltira's mental state at the moment he is rescued. But not at the time when she threatened him with it.

..."Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Arthas clearly failed when he created his death knights. You are still weak.
(Sylvanas opens a portal to the Undercity.)
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Fortunately, I have agents that can help you... erase this weakness. Beneath the Undercity you go.
Koltira Deathweaver yells: NO!
(A hooked chain lashes out from the portal, grasping Koltira and completely immobilizing him.)
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Shh... quiet, death knight. When I'm finished with you, your fear will be gone."

That does sound like a hell of threat for someone who already was under the complete control of someone else for some time. Both Sylvanas and Koltira knew what that means.

[Deleted]

You leave out the quests where the Forsaken had you kill several Alliance members for killing Forsaken

Which one was that?

One i left out was the Prison encampment near Dalaran. I believe these were forsaken who voluntarily went to them. The horde adventurer killed the forsaken prisoner as traitors and ofcourse the human soldiers their,

You also take the town registry that shows they are part of the Alliance and that they were trading supplies with them.

Than neutrals are also part of the alliance for trading with them. As i said are they allies or part of the alliance. I havn't seen anything to show they were part of it. I thought the settlements south of dalaran were part of dalaran (they needed to get supplies to rebuild from somewhere. Southshore would make sense if it was part of the alliance, or atleast semi neutral but allowed stormwind to use it as an outpost and help guard it. But it's also irrelevant as the alliance wasn't waging war with the horde, we wern't trying to conquer tarren mill or other horde settlements.

Hecular wasn't a lich, he tried to become one but he was not.

Thanks for correcting me.

They obviously were fighting the Forsaken, an Alliance quest back in classic has you kill a Forsaken messenger in hillsbrad to see what they are up to,

That's not prove, the way the horde went about it wasn't sabotaging but cripling settlement and destroying one fortress, they were acting as if it was a war but they lack the means to send armies.

The alliance only did minor espionage but than acted to 2 scourge like threats: A lich and a poison facility (yeah considering the scourge that is bad).

Their was nothing showing alliance was at war or focusing militarily on the forsaken. They were too busy with other problems. Now if those other problems wern't their they might have put more focus on the forsaken, but their is no proof of this. What the horde was doing was raiding alliance settlements. And killing everyone in a dwarven fortress.

I'm not really adding BG in here because Alterac valley and arathi basin have no reference in the quest world.

This is kind of what felt the difference on how the horde acted under Garrosh compared to thrall. Thrall didn't go to war with the alliance, he didn't send his armies against them. But horde outposts and settlements than fought the alliance with different means (against thrall's wishes). Garrosh however used armies escalating it into a full war.
Alliance mostly ignored the horde, their was a semi truce between them and they had other problems and rebuilding from the descruction the wars had caused. Only ashenvale was different as the horde were destroying sacred trees. In ashenvale it was a war between the sentinels and Warsong clan.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Which one was that?

One i left out was the Prison encampment near Dalaran. I believe these were forsaken who voluntarily went to them. The horde adventurer killed the forsaken prisoner as traitors and ofcourse the human soldiers their,

The old Hillsbarad wanted quests.

Than neutrals are also part of the alliance for trading with them.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Hillsbrad_Town_Registry

That's not prove, the way the horde went about it wasn't sabotaging but cripling settlement and destroying one fortress, they were acting as if it was a war but they lack the means to send armies.

The Forsaken werent very strong in Classic either, thats why most of their quests involve whittling away at enemies.

[Zandalariprelate]

Since the legion is the principal bad guy I doubt any faction would move against any orden who is really fighting the legion while the warchief and the wolf man are battling for useless watcher tower of maiev, also this is not the first time we see the ebon blade doing morally grey things, just look the quest of icecrown with the ebon blade

[Mehrunes]

First off, yes. Shamans did do a hell of a lot more if we compared elementals to dks, but that's not to say dks aren't useful yet either. We need to see if they actually pay off later on (which I would hope so, blizzard is aiming high by having all the classes having their own story, since it would be lame to end up having, let's say like, only shamans seeing what the elemental lords do)

In my opinion it's exactly to say they aren't useful yet. Keyword being yet. Sure, their plan may pay off and the Horsemen will become super strong despite not being so in life (other than Darion). But right now they only touched the Legion in few dungeons (which are joint missions because 5 man and because other Classes go there too). And like I said to Aucald, what they actually do isn't unique to them. Other Classes also gather strong forces and artifacts.

So I don't find the idea that Sylvanas wouldn't retaliate again the Ebon Blade, which began this strain of discussion, agreeable. They are small in number and they have almost nothing to show in their anti-Legion portfolio so far. Especially since Sylvanas does retaliate against the Alliance which can contribute much more than the Ebon Blade and as such is more important.

Original point, I meant by when I said I consider Sylvanas at fault a bit more in terms of ebon blade knights coming after koltira. Yeah, he screwed up and she could of executed him, but she chose to recondition him instead, so she must of thought he'd be useful for something.

Koltira essentially became a Forsaken when he joined. He shouldn't even have been Ebon Blade's concern anymore, just like leper Gnomes that joined RAS aren't Gnomeregan's concern. She could have helped create the situation with her pettiness, but only because Ebon Blade felt entitled to influencing the situation of their members even after they switched allegiances and injected themselves into internal matters of a sovereign state.

And even that aside, in the context of this thread's topic of the two factions turning hostile the Ebon Blade is the faction that's more to blame since they are the one that escalated things to violence. After Sylvanas became Warchief and gained few more races that have to obey her every desire as per Blood Oath and after the main factions already engaged in conflict proving that Sylvanas still will retaliate against those who attack her. And they did that knowing that and knowing what kind of a person she is: vengeful, sometimes petty, with rage issues and no tolerance for nonsense. Which is even seen in Koltira's fate in the first place.

And one Death Knight isn't really worth all of that. Sure, Koltira still can be useful, like causing a soul engine to overload from too much failure and imploding if thrown into one. But if Sylvanas turns her focus on them the net result will be a loss for the Ebon Blade. And with the PR nightmare they dug themselves into by attacking more than the Forsaken, who would aid them? The remains of the Scourge? That would result in such monumental clusterfuck that the Legion would be guaranteed to win and the Lich King isn't stupid enough for that.

[Deleted]

The old Hillsbarad wanted quests.


http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Hillsbrad_Town_Registry



The Forsaken werent very strong in Classic either, thats why most of their quests involve whittling away at enemies.

Weren't they one third or something like that from the Scourge Population back then? The Corebooks, that were written by that time with the support of Blizzard, gave them a greater Number than the Scarlet Crusade. I always imagined that the problem wasn't that the Forsaken was to weak, but that the Scarlet Crusade, the Forsaken and the by far weaker Alliance Forces there were always cockblocking each other. Like hell, that's what I loved about the Plaguelands back then. Yeah, the Scarlet Crusade was corrupted but they were doing their part of the fight, the Forsaken were sinister and made dark things but also doing their fight and the Argent Dawn and the Alliance very few, but the main problem seemed to me back then that everyone was only cockblocking each other while the Scourge could do whatever they want.

[Aquamonkey]

Weren't they one third or something like that from the Scourge Population back then?

Meanwhile, Arthas had become embroiled in a civil war in Lordaeron. Half of the standing undead forces, led by the banshee Sylvanas Windrunner, staged a coup for control over the undead empire.
--World of Warcraft manual

[Deleted]

Reminds me about that I really hope if Blizz ever brings Classic Servers, one of them would be a RP Server.

[Aucald]

Ehh, don't think they are anything more than a neutral faction. I mean, sure, they have agents that joined the factions because PCs (but I'd argue they work more as liasons between Ebon Blade and playable factions), but members of neutral factions also being members of the Horde or Alliance isn't unique and happens with the Earthen Ring and Cenarion Circle too. What I'd say is fluid is the level of attachment DKs have with the Ebon Blade. Like Koltira and Thassarian following the PCs in joining the factions, then going back to Ebon Blade for life. As for preventing resurrection, I can't really think of anything working like that other than destroying the bodies, which we didn't see in the scenario or purifying them with holy stuff (also unseen and in this case, extremely unlikely).

I think both the PC and the NPC DK's who "join" a given faction ultimately have their true loyalty with the Ebon Blade itself - not with the Horde or Alliance. Legion seems like it backs this up with having the Ebon Blade leadership essentially acting unilaterally, having an Alliance NPC in the form of Thassarian participate both in the operation to recruit Nazgrim as well as the mission to find and rescue Koltira (himself a nominal Horde NPC). Death Knights' loyalty to the Horde or the Alliance is just a formality to ensure they're not turned on as former agents of the Scourge - and the situation will last for as long as the Death Knights overall usefulness eclipses the stigma of the former allegiance. As for the issues with the abominations, either of the three DK Artifacts might have had a hand in that - or not, there's a variety of different story-related reasons why they might be able to cover their tracks. They may simply not even care to - Sylvanas is stretched thin enough as it is, their little venture into the Undercity may simply be under her radar.

Well, surpassing the original Horsemen isn't a particularly high bar to pass and it's yet to be seen if they actually achieve that. And demons like Balnazzar or Mephistroth aren't auxiliaries, they are Legion's generals. Even Eredar Twins, which are now under Mephistroth were one of final bastions in defense of last Legion attack. Even Hakkar, who is in kind of lore-mess right now being degraded to just Fel Guard (but last time we officially heard of his position in Legion during WotA, was pretty important), was an extreme risk nonetheless given how his anti-magic hounds would nullify one of Azeroth's greatest potentials. And while with even high position these individual demons may be relatively small losses for the Legion, the campaigns also achieved preventing much more significant losses on our side.

Well, I remember the original Horseman in Naxxramas breaking several guilds up back in Classic - although I guess that's not quite a standard of lore-related power. I wouldn't call Balnazzar or Mephistroth generals, either - Kil'jaeden and Archimonde are Sargeras' generals in the Legion, Balnazzar and Mephistroth are more or less corporals (under Tichondrius, himself a servant of Kil'jaeden). The Eredar Twins would be even further down the hierarchy, as would Hakkar as a previous servant of Mannoroth who served under Archimonde. Not to sell the other Order Hall campaigns short, but so far in the story I don't see any of them as having done much against the Legion itself.

If defeat at the hands of player forces serves as the litmus test for strength none of the forces marshaled so far are very impressive. The Elemental Lords of Fire and Air have been defeated multiple times, Ragnaros in Molten Core and the Firelands, and Al'akir in the Throne of the Winds (and his successor also defeated at the hands of Ragnaros' forces and again during the reforming of Thunderfury). Neptulon was captured by a hopped-up kraken and Therazane threatened by troggs - not an auspicious start to their forces. Ditto for any demonic specimens in a given Order Hall's stable of champions - they've all died time and time again except for the newest of the new.

And it's not like what the Death Knights are doing is unique. Even Warlocks, who start the campaign focusing on power unlimited with fucking the Legion over only as a secondary objective and switched it only when things got personal got an artifact capable of enslaving demons and empowered it to the point where it can work on powerful Man'ari, train new mooks and have Hurr and Durr craft Infernals.

I think most of the Order Halls are similar in structure so as to not obviously favor any one class over the others - at current you've got a similar overall storyline for each and a similar amount of accolades. The Death Knights secured an Artifact with a similar story in the form of the Maw of the Damned - a weapon designed with the singular purpose of killing Kil'jaeden, crafted by an insane Eredar who had an obsession with consuming Kil'jaeden's power.