No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[SirCowdog]

.(1) wow isn't not a flight sim

(2) no one (even the people in this thread shy away from this idea) wants the ground to be put in the air with flying dangerous mobs and tunnel like safe zones because then you are taking everyone's complaint s and not relocating them where you want to be

(3) any ideas you've come up with for quests involving fortresses that have things like flight involved would be zones onto themselves due to the size they would require, and can also easily be done without even including flight and just make a vehicular quest for that area.

1) No one, except those arguing against flight, has ever suggested that WoW should become a flight sim. It's a straw man that's so old you're confusing it with actual arguments. Certainly, people have suggested changing how flying works in order to mitigate some of the problems supposedly created by "helicoptering" from objective to objective. But nobody wants a flight sim. So stop over exaggerating with this.

2)We've been over this as well, and you exaggerated and twisted the point then as well as now. I've even condemned spamming anti-air mechanics in the same way dazing is used on the ground. I've often been very clear that areas hazardous to flight be used judiciously to create specific environments, exactly like is being done right now in Suramar with anti-illusion NPCs.

3)Oh, you mean like Suramar, which is it's own zone?


I'm sorry, but the only reason you think that flight can not be a benefit to the game is because you're refusing to look. You're so dead set in refusing to consider ideas other than how flight is the devil, that you can't consider anything else, even when presented with perfectly viable solutions which use existing examples and design as a base.

[Dormie]

1) No one, except those arguing against flight, has ever suggested that WoW should become a flight sim. It's a straw man that's so old you're confusing it with actual arguments. Certainly, people have suggested changing how flying works in order to mitigate some of the problems supposedly created by "helicoptering" from objective to objective. But nobody wants a flight sim. So stop over exaggerating with this.

But that's what it becomes when flight is enabled.

[SirCowdog]

But that's what it becomes when flight is enabled.

You've clearly never played a flight sim, or you wouldn't have made that claim. Go YouTube "flight-sim" and you'll see the difference.

[Eapoe]

1) No one, except those arguing against flight, has ever suggested that WoW should become a flight sim. It's a straw man that's so old you're confusing it with actual arguments. Certainly, people have suggested changing how flying works in order to mitigate some of the problems supposedly created by "helicoptering" from objective to objective. But nobody wants a flight sim. So stop over exaggerating with this.

2)We've been over this as well, and you exaggerated and twisted the point then as well as now. I've even condemned spamming anti-air mechanics in the same way dazing is used on the ground. I've often been very clear that areas hazardous to flight be used judiciously to create specific environments, exactly like is being done right now in Suramar with anti-illusion NPCs.

3)Oh, you mean like Suramar, which is it's own zone?


I'm sorry, but the only reason you think that flight can not be a benefit to the game is because you're refusing to look. You're so dead set in refusing to consider ideas other than how flight is the devil, that you can't consider anything else, even when presented with perfectly viable solutions which use existing examples and design as a base.

1) By very definition of what some people are asking for, they want it to be a flight sim. "Add more interesting mechanics to flight, add hazards you have to avoid, add flying hostile NPCs in the air that will knock you down and force combat, add aerial combat." All of these have been brought up to attempt bringing flight back and making it more than the convenience it is. These changes make it a flight sim as well as air combat, 2 things wow is not (at this time, things can change, even unlikely due to the game engine).
2) As well as point 1, you specifically stated putting things in the air that people, in this thread even, have stated they hate being on the ground. So why would you take the main thing you hate on the ground and add it into the air you want to use to skip said things? These environments you advocate for would be completely avoided and be the "hated" zones as well as the new complaint areas for people that hate having to jump their hoops when they "just want to fly and enjoy the vistas."
3) Yes, exactly like Suramar, and High Mountain, and Stormheim, Azsuna, Val'shara, and all zones previously. Pointing out Suramar is doing nothing to counter the point. Yeah, you have an item that lets you bypass mobs, IF you have the travel increase from rep (something not everyone has yet), skirt the outside of their vision radius, and manage to not run into a demon that breaks you out faster while avoiding the other patrolling mobs. These are things that add danger to the area, UNLIKE flight that just lets you safely bypass all these things.
Flight is a benefit to the game under the recognition that flight is these things: a convenience to skip the dangers of the world, a way to save time while farming mats or completing quests, and a different way to explore. Flight also benefitted the game when it was first introduced as being a brand new travel mechanic in a genre it was never used before in a highly popular game in that it brought, and kept, players; however, when brought into the game, the problems it caused were also introduced. Some people feel these problems aren't problems because they don't care, but they are problems none the less. Just like you and others are upset about flight being temporarily out you can't even admit the issues it has made.
I don't care if flight is brought back or not, I play the game with it and without it. I still find it fun and enjoyable, and know that others don't (as I've said multiple times), but that doesn't mean anecdotes of your joy for flight or inovative ways to change the game in ways that either can't be done or would be despised by others are valid arguements to bring it back.

[Dormie]

You've clearly never played a flight sim, or you wouldn't have made that claim. Go YouTube "flight-sim" and you'll see the difference.

I see people in the air 90% of the time like when flying mounts are enabled.

[Mafic]

You've clearly never played a flight sim, or you wouldn't have made that claim. Go YouTube "flight-sim" and you'll see the difference.

Flight sims are complex and require a bit more effort than hitting a button like the flight whistle and it whisks you away to a flight path that forces you to afk. I don't think people realize what they are implying by saying flight sims, because flight sims require a level of top notch aviation understanding to even attempt.

What makes flying interesting in WoW is that it is simple, but it offers a degree of control that opens up possibilites with interacting the game world.

[TyrianFC]

but it offers a degree of control that opens up possibilites with interacting the game world.

Incorrect. You cease interacting with the game world, and for all intents and purposes, disappear from it for the duration of your flight.

[SirCowdog]

1) By very definition of what some people are asking for, they want it to be a flight sim. "Add more interesting mechanics to flight, add hazards you have to avoid, add flying hostile NPCs in the air that will knock you down and force combat, add aerial combat." All of these have been brought up to attempt bringing flight back and making it more than the convenience it is. These changes make it a flight sim as well as air combat, 2 things wow is not (at this time, things can change, even unlikely due to the game engine).

WHO is asking for a flight sim? Can you even quote a single person that wants the complexity of a flight sim? Do you even understand the difference between a fully dedicated game based SOLELY on the mechanics of flight, and simply tweaking how flight interacts with WoW in order to help with "Helicoptering"? Did the cannons in Ogri-la make WoW a flight sim? Did the kaliri birds? Did Netherwing races?

See, this is EXACTLY what I was talking about. You're so stuck on the idea that flight is bad that you can't even break out of it. You have to twist everything instead of actually comprehending what's being said.

2) As well as point 1, you specifically stated putting things in the air that people, in this thread even, have stated they hate being on the ground. So why would you take the main thing you hate on the ground and add it into the air you want to use to skip said things? These environments you advocate for would be completely avoided and be the "hated" zones as well as the new complaint areas for people that hate having to jump their hoops when they "just want to fly and enjoy the vistas."

What people hate on the ground is NEEDLESS dazing and dismounting EVERYWHERE. What I'm talking about are very specific, judiciously used mechanics similar to what is praised in Suramar. Do you not actually read what I'm writing?

3) Yes, exactly like Suramar, and High Mountain, and Stormheim, Azsuna, Val'shara, and all zones previously. Pointing out Suramar is doing nothing to counter the point. Yeah, you have an item that lets you bypass mobs, IF you have the travel increase from rep (something not everyone has yet), skirt the outside of their vision radius, and manage to not run into a demon that breaks you out faster while avoiding the other patrolling mobs. These are things that add danger to the area, UNLIKE flight that just lets you safely bypass all these things.

Again, take off your Flight-Hater goggles and actually comprehend what I'm typing. Do you not understand the correlation between the mechanics of patrolling anti-illusion NPCs, and the suggestion of patrolling anti-flight NPCs? Does this just not get through to you at all?

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I see people in the air 90% of the time like when flying mounts are enabled.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the mechanics of flight, or in any way supports the idea that WoW is a flight sim. What is your point, exactly?

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Flight sims are complex and require a bit more effort than hitting a button like the flight whistle and it whisks you away to a flight path that forces you to afk. I don't think people realize what they are implying by saying flight sims, because flight sims require a level of top notch aviation understanding to even attempt.

What makes flying interesting in WoW is that it is simple, but it offers a degree of control that opens up possibilites with interacting the game world.

Adding simple, arcade-like movement controls to flying is what they are probably referring to. But apparently that's far FAR too complex for the wow engine to handle, much less the players. Despite the fact that we already do something VERY similar with a glider+emerald winds. And I don't see anyone up in arms about how that's ruining the game.

[Zalamander]

Incorrect. You cease interacting with the game world, and for all intents and purposes, disappear from it for the duration of your flight.

Oh exactly like when on a ground mount then.

Well I do act more with the world on a flying mount tho since I get a much better overview of the area and discover more interesting things to check out. Instead of just mindlessly riding to where I had planned and ignoring everything.

[Dormie]

That has absolutely nothing to do with the mechanics of flight, or in any way supports the idea that WoW is a flight sim. What is your point, exactly?

You seem to be oblivious as to why people use the 'flight sim' phrase. You realize they aren't saying it's ACTUALLY a flight simulator right? The point should be fairly obvious.

[Zalamander]

You seem to be oblivious as to why people use the 'flight sim' phrase. You realize they aren't saying it's ACTUALLY a flight simulator right? The point should be fairly obvious.

But it would be much better if flying was more interactive and flight sim like. like constantly having to activate certain skills to keep ok speed and a real aerodynamic kind of movement. Different perks and skills of different mounts would be awesome too, but not too OP to cause the water strider problem.
But make the mount collection similar to the pet collection.

[Dormie]

But it would be much better if flying was more interactive and flight sim like. like constantly having to activate certain skills to keep ok speed and a real aerodynamic kind of movement. Different perks and skills of different mounts would be awesome too, but not too OP to cause the water strider problem.
But make the mount collection similar to the pet collection.

Sure. What I've said from the beginning is that flying shouldn't be off or on, there should be some middleground devs find through some kind of mechanics. A fatigue bar or something. I've always liked the idea of only being able to mount flying mounts from stablemasters or flight paths.

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Oh exactly like when on a ground mount then.

Well I do act more with the world on a flying mount tho since I get a much better overview of the area and discover more interesting things to check out. Instead of just mindlessly riding to where I had planned and ignoring everything.

aint no one buying that bruh

[Zalamander]

Sure. What I've said from the beginning is that flying shouldn't be off or on, there should be some middleground devs find through some kind of mechanics. A fatigue bar or something. I've always liked the idea of only being able to mount flying mounts from stablemasters or flight paths.

thats not what Im talking about, and that would make them totaly pointless.

aint no one buying that bruh

Too bad, because thats how it really is. on a ground mount the world feels like a damn prison, hills and vegetation blocking the view everywhere. You don't "find" stuff unless you basically run into them by accident, especially now with the new super crappy short camera distance.
There is no point in wasting time exploring the world that way.

[SirCowdog]

You seem to be oblivious as to why people use the 'flight sim' phrase. You realize they aren't saying it's ACTUALLY a flight simulator right? The point should be fairly obvious.

Maybe people should actually say what they mean, then.

[Deleted]

I see people in the air 90% of the time like when flying mounts are enabled.

At least you can SEE people. Without flight most people avoid being in the world at all cost, doing only the necessary.
Besides... whats wrong with people flying around (i just ignore your very subjective 90% of the time)?

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Incorrect. You cease interacting with the game world, and for all intents and purposes, disappear from it for the duration of your flight.

The duration of flight doesn't matter for the gameplay in any way shape or form. You are not interacting with the world while on the back of a flight taxi either plus you are invincible too. Point is: in order to get something done, anything, you have to land and interact with world. Flight does not trivialize content, cause that content is already trivialized. Except you count fighting pointless monsters and critters at maxlevel you gain nothing of value from as "meaningful interaction".

[Deleted]

thats not what Im talking about, and that would make them totaly pointless.




Too bad, because thats how it really is. on a ground mount the world feels like a damn prison, hills and vegetation blocking the view everywhere. You don't "find" stuff unless you basically run into them by accident, especially now with the new super crappy short camera distance.
There is no point in wasting time exploring the world that way.

I stopped exploring besides doing achievements when they removed flying, and added the HandyNotes addon to my setup. Not everybody is enjoying "exploration" in WoW as it is presented now. I had more fun exploring in Classic. Now it's more of a chore which Blizzard shoves onto you so you complete their content as they desire. Eat you veggies or you get no dessert.

Since when did games become a dictatorship?

[Deleted]

You seem to be oblivious as to why people use the 'flight sim' phrase. You realize they aren't saying it's ACTUALLY a flight simulator right? The point should be fairly obvious.

Yes it is obvious what the reason is why people suggesting a flightsim to people asking for flight to be back in WOW: Stupidity.
Simply because who ever suggests that fails at basic understanding. No flightsim in this world takes part in Azeroth and offers the same gamemechanics the game offers. It is their favorite way to interact with the world, and yes... interact they do, because what all those "smart" people suggesting a flightsim seem failing to understand: everything that has to be done has to be done on the ground. A need no flightsim can ever provide that.

Suggesting a flightsim to people wanting their favorite travelmode back is beyond stupid and those (to be in line with those anti-flight people) "no-fly-babies" fail on so many levels of understanding.

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Oh exactly like when on a ground mount then.

Well I do act more with the world on a flying mount tho since I get a much better overview of the area and discover more interesting things to check out. Instead of just mindlessly riding to where I had planned and ignoring everything.

That is something Those shortsighted narrowviewing anti-flight people don't see: people (no all people obviously) tend to be more in the world doing things when they can fly. If you ever watched the scenes in the world, people are out more because they can get more done due to the fact that they are faster and don't have to put up with all those pointless encounters and obstacles that serve no purpose just to annoy, disturb and stealing time. This forced "slowing people down on the ground" makes less people go out in the world, and they stay there for a shorter period of time.

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Then stop acting like it.

I don,t. You are the one always go into extremes and talk about "everybody". I don't know how your obsession with totalities works but you must be fun at parties.

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They were in a free fall because WoD sucked, not because flight was missing on Draenor. Adding flight was just another stop-gap bandaid to slow the hemorraging of subs. Nothing more, nothing less. Had WoD been more successful, 6.1 actually had content, and 6.2 delivered something more interesting, odds are flight (and a handful of other welfare items) probably would not have appeared.

Stop acting stupid. You deny that flight has anything to do with the "free fall" and yet you claim that it was part of the "welfare" that they threw at us to stop the free fall? You are one ambivalent person.
And you continue... you think that "if WoD had been better, IF 6.1 had content and IF 6.2 was better....." well, those are a lot of IFs. But break it to you: NO, it would change NOTHING on the matter that people left because of the no-flight incident. Not all people but enough to show Blizzard that they will never ever be able to take out flight from this game.
with your "welfare" phrase you through in here, you clearly show me that you have no clue at all what made WoW actually that big of a game. To make that clear and educate you: it isn't the challenge or the hard raids and dungeons that drew millions of players into tis game. It is the fact that WoW has always been THE MOST casual MMORPG on the market. Welfare is needed for this game or it loses more people than it gains. An so is convenience (flight for ex) so the casual people they drew to the game in millions over the past decade have a little more control on what they spend their spare time and in which manner they engage the content.
If something is needed to make this game shine in its former glory, they all these timegates have to go, including these restricted oneways. More welfare and freedom, and less tedium and restrictions and tries to force the average game a certain way.

INFRACTION

[Dhrizzle]

I have no qualms with experiencing standard progression content without flight. I get to take my time and take in the environment, at a pace which Blizzard has masterfully set. I doubt many pro-flight issues are complaints against progression content and lack-of-flight during leveling.

Flight assists in the grind; the max-level repeated dailies, or profession farming, or world boss/events. I used flight to farm the Zandalari Warbringers, because they drop rep tokens that allowed me to completely bypass a rep grind. I don't consider Zandalari Warbringer farming something that would give me a better experience had I done it on the ground; in fact it would be frustrating to the point where I wouldn't even bother and just do rep grinds the normal way.

Then there's the non-content related benefits of flying. I got to take in a completely new perspective of the landscape, from a different angle, at my whim. It is the absolute feeling of freedom you get when you can take to the skies. I play a druid, so I get added benefit of being able to do this instantly and in any state - I can even fly out of water if I time the jump right. Even if Timeless Isles has no flight available, I am unrestricted to flying in the main part of Pandaria; and that is EXACTLY what pro-flight is asking for. The freedom to fly around unrestricted in the world. If World content is being interfered by flight, then why not use phasing and instanced technology to bypass it? Might I suggest two (phased) versions of the open world; one with flight available and one without for when you get into 'World Quest' mode. Flight would be made available with controleld content available - profession gathering, rare spawns, bonus objectives and world bosses. No-flight mode is activated through accepting a World Quest or activating the World Quest mode. You don't see anyone flying overhead or competing for your ground-only gathering spots in the world.

As for WoD, I never subbed for WoD officially. I've used 7-day trials, and I've reached max level through them. I did it through doing bonus objectives, and turning them all in with XP potions active. Had I had flight available, I would have been able to level up in half the time - but that of course was gated through numerous objectives which I couldn't complete within 7 days. Do I care that I don't have flight? Not really, because I never enjoyed world content much to begin with. My goals were to level up as quickly as possible so I could attend the raids and end-game content; most of which was not situated in the world at all.

My reasons to go out into the world? Few and far between. Let's just say that I would have more incentive if I had flight, because I enjoy having flight around. I'm not going to spend hours gathering for professions on a ground mount and I'd rather play the auction hall instead, it's a far more efficient use of my time. Time is a resource to me, and that's why flight is important. It's not about how much content, or the pace at which it's enjoyed. It's about how much 'filler' I can mitigate through efficient use of flight. Achievement farming, to me, is more fun when I have flight than when I don't. I don't care much about experiencing which rare mobs I encountered in the world at random if I'm actively trying to complete a checklist as quickly as possible.

It seems like you're not that much of a fan of open-world cakes and prefer playing with the dog and feeding the cakes to him. The question is, should the baker really be making cakes for people who aren't that in to cakes?

Yes it is. But realize that 8 years ago, the bakers used the Dog to promote the bakery and get themselves to stand out amongst the other bakeries and other cakes. The Dog was beloved by all, and it stuck around being the bakery's iconic mascot. Few other bakeries followed suit. Now, the bakery takes away the dog for reasons that have been this far arbitrary to the guests; for reasons that the bakery thinks would improve the dining experience even though nothing has really changed (considering the presence of the no-dog zones). They can do what they want, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily the best way to handle things. Again, the dog provided no nuisance to the guests, and even the ones who didn't like the dog were generally unbothered by its presence.

I think you're taking it a bit far calling the dog a beloved, iconic mascot, particularly when the vast majority of cakes were consumed in no-dog rooms and, whilst it may not be a bother, there is certainly a strong sentiment that the best world-content cakes are made for non-dog consumption.

The no-dog zones have always existed. Nothing has changed except a prolonging of when the dog is allowed back in the main room. That's literally it.

Yes, diners are given the opportunity to enjoy cakes without the dog gobbling them, and bakers are happy to bake tastier cakes knowing the effort won't be wasted.

And I believe it's not about how many or how few cakes they should produce, but the quality of the cakes and how it can coexist with having the dog around without it eating them. Wrath is a prime example of having cakes that the dog wouldn't eat. Jousting, on-rails events, dragon-mounting quests, indoor quests, etc. More of that, please!

Whilst there have been some gimmicky cakes that the dog wouldn't touch they've been just that, gimmicks, and not part of the core eating experience people expect from the bakers.

[caervek]

Too bad, because thats how it really is. on a ground mount the world feels like a damn prison, hills and vegetation blocking the view everywhere. You don't "find" stuff unless you basically run into them by accident, especially now with the new super crappy short camera distance.
There is no point in wasting time exploring the world that way.

This is how I feel too. Ground mounts were fine in Vanilla/TBC back when zones were designed for them and the terrain was placed around the roads. But every expansion since TBC has been designed for flight and WoD/Leg not having it at launch just feels like a colossal roadblock stopping enjoyment of the world.

[quras]

Incorrect. You cease interacting with the game world, and for all intents and purposes, disappear from it for the duration of your flight.

And yet no different if you take a FP or teleport or stay on the road. A major difference is with flying, I can travel from "A" to "Z" and skip all in between if I want. I can also interact with everything from "B" to "Y" if I so choose. It's rather awesome in comparison to ground travel, teleporting or an AFK flight path.

The gamer for most cases interacts when they need to. Otherwise, avoiding the useless things even while leveling. However, this because more prevalent at max level as most things have become useless and not really worthy of your time. That doesn't mean they should be removed as others still need them. Just not a max level player.

You cease interacting with lots of things for various reasons. It boils down to Avoidance and that isn't a big deal when it comes to open world no matter how you pull it off. Gamers will interact with that they need to. Nothing wrong with that especially so at max level when so much of that old world leveling content isn't really worth the time. No reasonable excuse to not allow flying at that point or really shortly after reaching max level.