Outlaw biggest problem is scaling

[Deleted]

Reason for this can easily be seen with our stat values.

Versatility is by far the strongest, at 0.69 ratio compared to agi, followed by much weaker stats crit, masteryand haste respectievly.

How is this the problem, you ask?

Well, versatility provides a flat damage increase as well as some other stuff like less damage taken and it's balanced as such.
That kind of stat is overloaded, it's not offensive only, and yet it's still by far our best stat, while something like haste which double dips as damage increase is much much weaker than it. That's a poorly though out design right there and it will hurt us so much in upcoming patches and gear upgrades.

[delus]

Here is my stay spread for outlaw. Things change with different gear.

Agility1.000
Attack Power 1.000
Versatility 0.810
Mastery0.776
Haste 0.709
Crit 0.435
Mainhand Dps 1.380
Offhand Dps 0.660

[Deleted]

Here is my stay spread for outlaw. Things change with different gear.

Agility1.000
Attack Power 1.000
Versatility 0.810
Mastery0.776
Haste 0.709
Crit 0.435
Mainhand Dps 1.380
Offhand Dps 0.660

I got my stat weights from iceveins, what's your source?

[Kalador]

Reason for this can easily be seen with our stat values.

Versatility is by far the strongest, at 0.69 ratio compared to agi, followed by much weaker stats crit, masteryand haste respectievly.

How is this the problem, you ask?

Well, versatility provides a flat damage increase as well as some other stuff like less damage taken and it's balanced as such.
That kind of stat is overloaded, it's not offensive only, and yet it's still by far our best stat, while something like haste which double dips as damage increase is much much weaker than it. That's a poorly though out design right there and it will hurt us so much in upcoming patches and gear upgrades.

It's not true, outlaw scale decently with gear, 1st your stats value are for your gear and depend on your stats so the 0.69 is not true, also all 4 stats are okayish for outlaw witch is alwayse good for scaling, outlaw also scale good with weapon damage witch is also good news, the only spec that has real trouble scaling this tier is bleed sin spec as both mastery and haste don't affect bleed but even there it's not hitting before very high level of gear.

if outlaw is truly bad in 7.1 than they will fix it, for now it's nothing to worry about...

P.S. I see a lot off people claming versa is a bad scaling stats but i've never see anything backing that claim, it seems more like I FEEL it's worst cause it only give flat dmg, rather than it's bad here is the math to back it up....

[Dieselol]

That's your problem right there. Icy Veins is trash. Use simcraft to see your stat values.

[Kalador]

I got my stat weights from iceveins, what's your source?

he probably simed is char like you should do, don't trust avg stats value, they change depending on your gear

[Deleted]

I got my stat weights from iceveins, what's your source?

I didnt know icyveins have a simulation function? You realise your stat prio is ever changing right depending on what gear you currently have? I simm betwen every single item upgrade.

[Hablion]

I didnt know icyveins have a simulation function? You realise your stat prio is ever changing right depending on what gear you currently have? I simm betwen every single item upgrade.

mid-raid you usually do not have time for that and generally you have like 15 seconds to decide otherwise someone else will get it.

[Nythiz]

Reason for this can easily be seen with our stat values.

Versatility is by far the strongest, at 0.69 ratio compared to agi, followed by much weaker stats crit, masteryand haste respectievly.

How is this the problem, you ask?

Well, versatility provides a flat damage increase as well as some other stuff like less damage taken and it's balanced as such.
That kind of stat is overloaded, it's not offensive only, and yet it's still by far our best stat, while something like haste which double dips as damage increase is much much weaker than it. That's a poorly though out design right there and it will hurt us so much in upcoming patches and gear upgrades.

You make 1 critical mistake with your train of thought. And that is that you can't judge the power of agility from those normalized stat values.

You are right that outlaw doesn't benefit particularly from any secondary stat. But that doesn't per definition means that the spec scales badly.

Hypothetical example:
You have spec A and spec B.
Spec A is like outlaw, it has versatility as it best stat at 0.60 and haste at a meager 0.50.
Spec B is a spec that scales really well with haste. It's versatility is at 0.55, but it's haste is at an impressive 0.85.

Here is the thing.
Say spec A scales really well on a raw level with agility. It gets an extra 20 DPS for every 1 agility point.
Spec B is a lot worse on that, it gets a lot of benefit from it's secondary stats but only sees 12 DPS for every 1 agility point.

Spec A:
Agility = 20 DPS/point
Versatility = 12 DPS/point
Haste = 10 DPS/point

Spec B:
Agility = 12 DPS/point
Versatility = 6.6 DPS/point
Haste = 10.2 DPS/point

Disclaimer: Oversimplified for the sake of making a point

Now you tell me which spec scales better.

You can't judge by normalized stats, there is much more to it than you think.

[muCephei]

mid-raid you usually do not have time for that and generally you have like 15 seconds to decide otherwise someone else will get it.

While this is true, your 'old' self-simmed stat weights will still give you a rough estimate of how good the item will be for you and will likely be better than generic weights you find online.

[Notter]

the basic premise of this thread is correct, outlaw doesn't scale well. we can see it clearly in the logs of heroic vs mythic.
but it's not only because of stats.

i think one of the major contributes to advancement in this expansion are artifact talents.
and with outlaw, past like rank 18, you don't benefit greatly from anything.
two of outlaw's golden traits are pretty bad.

[Deleted]

You make 1 critical mistake with your train of thought. And that is that you can't judge the power of agility from those normalized stat values.

You are right that outlaw doesn't benefit particularly from any secondary stat. But that doesn't per definition means that the spec scales badly.

Hypothetical example:
You have spec A and spec B.
Spec A is like outlaw, it has versatility as it best stat at 0.60 and haste at a meager 0.50.
Spec B is a spec that scales really well with haste. It's versatility is at 0.55, but it's haste is at an impressive 0.85.

Here is the thing.
Say spec A scales really well on a raw level with agility. It gets an extra 20 DPS for every 1 agility point.
Spec B is a lot worse on that, it gets a lot of benefit from it's secondary stats but only sees 12 DPS for every 1 agility point.

Spec A:
Agility = 20 DPS/point
Versatility = 12 DPS/point
Haste = 10 DPS/point

Spec B:
Agility = 12 DPS/point
Versatility = 6.6 DPS/point
Haste = 10.2 DPS/point

Disclaimer: Oversimplified for the sake of making a point

Now you tell me which spec scales better.

You can't judge by normalized stats, there is much more to it than you think.

Gains from a single stat, agility in this case, are linear.

You need good gains from several good stats that are multiplicative with each for end of expansion scaling.

[Valnar]

Aside from the fact that the weights change based on gear, which other people mentioned, I feel like OP missed all of the tools that we have that overlap with other some of the stats.

Mostly Haste and critical strike.

A big part of haste is of energy regeneration, Outlaws have a lot of tools though that cover this aspect.

Alacrity straight up provides a lot of haste alone.
Adrenaline Rush gives us 12 seconds of mega regeneration
Saber slash has a chance to give free pistol shots, which is essentially a free energy regen.
Combat potency gives more energy

4/6 RTB buffs have a positive effect on energy in some way.
Jolly Rodger gives more free pistol shots, Buried treasure is straight energy regen, True bearings reduces the cooldown on Adrenaline rush and MfD, Grand melee gives more opportunities to proc combat potency.

For crit, we of course have Shark infested waters too which reduces the need for crit a bit.

Versatility and mastery don't really have tools to boost them, and versatility is just a straight up more damage multipler which would explain why its useful to outlaws.

Its not that those stats aren't useful, its more that we have tools that overlap with them.

[ymirsson]

Gains from a single stat, agility in this case, are linear.

You need good gains from several good stats that are multiplicative with each for end of expansion scaling.

All stats are in fact multiplicative with each other.

And to your starting post: Versatility is as linear as Agility. Agility is indeed a strong stat and does not cause inherent scaling issues.

I don't know how you came to your conclusions, or why do you include some arbitrary stat weights, but they do not make a point.

[Deleted]

Thats true..

having vers as best stat is ALWAYS a realy big issue because its a flat % increase,
stacking mastery with assa means more dps on the long run.
Because 1% vers increase is for booth the same ( assa and combat ).
But for assa the same amount of masters as 1% vers is worth more, so it will outscale on the long run.

[ymirsson]

Thats true..

having vers as best stat is ALWAYS a realy big issue because its a flat % increase

That is so wrong. Any stat is a "flat % increase", Versatility just does not need to be translated into some other numbers beforehand.

[Deleted]

but thats true dude
lets say:

assa doing 300k dps
combat does 300k dps
1%/400 vers for BOOTH specs means they will BOOTH do 303k dps , thats basic math.

for combat 400 vers is BIS , so mastery is raising the damage LESS then 1% , so its , lets say , raising to 302,8k dps.

While for assa 400 mastery means more then 1% increase in overall dps , because 400 mastery worth a lot more then 400 vers. so assa gets to 303,5k dps.

If you stack your best in slot stats , any spec which has a better stat then vers will outscale you on the long run!

tldr: having vers as best stat is not always bad, but it means a bad scaling. Combat is already the worst spec (okay doing well on 2-3 bosses ) and its geting even more worse with better gear.

[ymirsson]

but thats true dude
lets say:

assa doing 300k dps
combat does 300k dps
1%/400 vers for BOOTH specs means they will BOOTH do 303k dps , thats basic math.

for combat 400 vers is BIS , so mastery is raising the damage LESS then 1% , so its , lets say , raising to 302,8k dps.

While for assa 400 mastery means more then 1% increase in overall dps , because 400 mastery worth a lot more then 400 vers. so assa gets to 303,5k dps.

If you stack your best in slot stats , any spec which has a better stat then vers will outscale you on the long run!

tldr: having vers as best stat is not always bad, but it means a bad scaling. Combat is already the worst spec (okay doing well on 2-3 bosses ) and its geting even more worse with better gear.

Where does it say that 400 mastery for assa is a higher DPS increase then 400 vers for combat? And under which circumstances?

Haven't we established that stat weights are always in flux? Every single piece of gear exchanged change the stat weights, therefore i am reluctant to claim that any single stat is unconditionally the "best" for any spec in every situation.

The last time i simmed my outlaw setup i had mastery above versatility.

Do all underperforming specs (and here th next issue arises, which specs are underperforming? Ask 3 forum member, get 5 answers and an infraction) value Versatility highly? That would be an indicator, i think.
But randomly quoting stat weights without any further context and claiming the world will end is not convincing.

[Generical]

On the subject of golden traits, I don't really understand how the devs can look at something like Blurred Time and think that's even remotely in the ballpark for the benefit a golden trait should give. I've seen others say it comes out to a 2.5sec cooldown reduction. It started out great in beta but just kept getting nerfed lower and lower.