Outlaw

[GiefEpixe]

This is not true, the RNG averages out over the course of the fight. There are some rare occasion where RNG may hurt you but this is definitely not the norm. The issue with outlaw is simply it lacks damage due to the double RT nerf. In my opinion you need at least 1 finisher energy reduction relic to make the spec playable and that is just TERRIBLE design. Revert the recent nerfs and go from there.

Unfortunately, the bolded part is not correct. It does not average out during a single fight. That's why you have that stupidly large spread for Outlaw in sims. And ultimately, that's the root of the issue we're having now. Blizzard reacted to "what could be possible" with Outlaw at the top end (i.e. one or two sixers in a fight or constantly three) and nerfed correspondingly. They didn't take into account the impact on the average, though, and therefore you're just not competitive at the moment with average luck in rolling.

[Deleted]

Unfortunately, the bolded part is not correct. It does not average out during a single fight. That's why you have that stupidly large spread for Outlaw in sims. And ultimately, that's the root of the issue we're having now. Blizzard reacted to "what could be possible" with Outlaw at the top end (i.e. one or two sixers in a fight or constantly three) and nerfed correspondingly. They didn't take into account the impact on the average, though, and therefore you're just not competitive at the moment with average luck in rolling.

While we do not know why Blizzard actually decided to nerf outlaw they would most certainly not nerf it on the outlier max potential burst. The RNG does average out and this can be proven by repeatable logs and dps numbers on fights. What people do during the course of the fight has a much larger impact on the overall dps numbers (like popping burst just before a mechanic like rot) and not the RNG of RTB.

[Maelstrom51]

While we do not know why Blizzard actually decided to nerf outlaw they would most certainly not nerf it on the outlier max potential burst. The RNG does average out and this can be proven by repeatable logs and dps numbers on fights. What people do during the course of the fight has a much larger impact on the overall dps numbers (like popping burst just before a mechanic like rot) and not the RNG of RTB.

It 'evens out' slightly. We still have a much higher variance in DPS compared to almost every other class/spec. RNG can make a 50% dps difference on the extreme ends, and about 20% is normal for outlaw. Both of which are absolutely massive.

[OperationFerret]

EN is just not a good raid for Outlaw as there is very little melee-friendly sustained cleave going on. Add phases tend to be messy with the adds themselves spread all over the place so it's hard to take advantage of Blade Flurry.

We are still great at clearing trash, if that's any consolation.

[Deleted]

It 'evens out' slightly. We still have a much higher variance in DPS compared to almost every other class/spec. RNG can make a 50% dps difference on the extreme ends, and about 20% is normal for outlaw. Both of which are absolutely massive.

We do have a large spread of potential damage but the mean is what you have to look at. You can look at sim dps all you want but people have the largest impact on their dps and not RTB. Making those quick calls on holding or popping burst, what to do on a mechanic, etc are all much more important.

[Sycent]

We do have a large spread of potential damage but the mean is what you have to look at. You can look at sim dps all you want but people have the largest impact on their dps and not RTB. Making those quick calls on holding or popping burst, what to do on a mechanic, etc are all much more important.

Both the mean and the spread is important. You can have your head in the freezer and feet in a furnace, but on average, you are rather comfortable...

[Deleted]

Both the mean and the spread is important. You can have your head in the freezer and feet in a furnace, but on average, you are rather comfortable...

If you are constantly on the low side of your sim dps then it is a player issue and not the spec.

[Geehbee]

I have two outlaw legendaries, boots and gloves, with 24 Artifact Power and 865 Gear.

My Assassin spec has no legendaries, 24 artifact power and 864 Gear.

On AVERAGE my single target is 100k better on Assassin... 100k, it's no joke on raids.

My Sustained cleave on assassin is far higher, the only thing Outlaw really does better is low HP add burst (Myth+ dungeons)

The fact of the matter is, Outlaw is the worst performing DPS spec currently out of all specs/classes in mythic raids, the people that defend outlaw are usually the ones who do world quests as it, roll a few six stack buffs sometimes, and remember feeling powerful.

When in reality during a burn phase and bloodlust you are rerolling grand melee 4 times in a row.

Feels bad, I loved this spec once.

[Animatelol]

The fact that I can get lucky and pull 100k more DPS in a fight purely because I got a 6 buff roll at the beginning is insanely stupid. I can be the most valuable DPS (by a narrow margin) or be the worst.

When in reality during a burn phase and bloodlust you are rerolling grand melee 4 times in a row.

only four times?

[GiefEpixe]

While we do not know why Blizzard actually decided to nerf outlaw they would most certainly not nerf it on the outlier max potential burst. The RNG does average out and this can be proven by repeatable logs and dps numbers on fights. What people do during the course of the fight has a much larger impact on the overall dps numbers (like popping burst just before a mechanic like rot) and not the RNG of RTB.

So actually you're not saying that "RNG averages out over the course of the fight" (i.e. a single fight) but is averaging out over a large enough sample of multiple fights, eh?

Also, when discussing the competitiveness of a spec, stuff like "when to pop and when not" should be a given. Outlaw is not performing so badly because it's played by a comparatively large amount of people who don't know fight mechanics and when to burst. On average, they perform just as good as any other class in that regard. So that's clearly not the reason for the current underperformance.

It's simply the most RNG spec in the game and sometimes there's just nothing you can do to compete.

[Useful]

ppl keep forgetting about total damage done. I was top 3 in our heroic EN run with a few wipes here and there and I'm totally fine with it. Yes my dps on particular enocounters wasnt good but still being useful on a long distance feels rewarding. Also i enjoy outlaw despite the nerfs and QQs.

[Deleted]

I think people overvalue the 6-buff roll. There is a high chance some of the buffs will be obsolete, like Broadsides during Curse, or Buried Treasure during AR. In fact, you hit the GCD cap pretty often, if you take into consideration all the accelerators we have. When that happens, Shark Infested Waters does most of the work, which is why keeping a single SiW on pull is better than some 2x combinations (like BT/GM).

That being said, the nerfs did feel somewhat out of place, as both other specs were buffed simultaneously. Reverting either of them (not both) would be a nice compromise IMO.

[Deleted]

So actually you're not saying that "RNG averages out over the course of the fight" (i.e. a single fight) but is averaging out over a large enough sample of multiple fights, eh?

Also, when discussing the competitiveness of a spec, stuff like "when to pop and when not" should be a given. Outlaw is not performing so badly because it's played by a comparatively large amount of people who don't know fight mechanics and when to burst. On average, they perform just as good as any other class in that regard. So that's clearly not the reason for the current underperformance.

It's simply the most RNG spec in the game and sometimes there's just nothing you can do to compete.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I clearly stated that the RNG is not the problem over the fight and this is proven by the fact that the results are repeatable. Blame RTB all want but it is the player has the biggest impact on dps and not that mechanic. Outlaw is under performing because of number tuning and not RTB.

[Geehbee]

ppl keep forgetting about total damage done. I was top 3 in our heroic EN run with a few wipes here and there and I'm totally fine with it. Yes my dps on particular enocounters wasnt good but still being useful on a long distance feels rewarding. Also i enjoy outlaw despite the nerfs and QQs.

No one is forgetting about it, just everyone else realizes padding your numbers by 800k dps on pathway trash doesn't matter.

[Maelstrom51]

The results are only repeatable if you consider a 15-25% difference in dps between pulls despite the player playing correctly to be the same. In my book that is not the case and is unacceptable.

[shaunika123]

If you are constantly on the low side of your sim dps then it is a player issue and not the spec.

actually simcraft for outlaws is total BS it sims me for like 381k and there's no fucking way im doing that on average and im 99% percentile on all bosses in HC

[Geehbee]

actually simcraft for outlaws is total BS it sims me for like 381k and there's no fucking way im doing that on average and im 99% percentile on all bosses in HC

I didn't mention sims, just real raid data.

Simming for outlaw is hilariously inflated, I also sim high (370k on it), but actual damage is far far lower, it sims horribly.

Sub and Assassination sims are much more realistic in a raid environment, I sim 370k on assassin and i hit 360-380 on single target.

[GiefEpixe]

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I clearly stated that the RNG is not the problem over the fight and this is proven by the fact that the results are repeatable. Blame RTB all want but it is the player has the biggest impact on dps and not that mechanic. Outlaw is under performing because of number tuning and not RTB.

Yup, ok. Got you the first time. You really think RNG has no impact on single fights. Quite laughable, mate. But you do you. Repeatable results. God, that's a good one with a statistical spread of 20%. Jesus...

[shaunika123]

I didn't mention sims, just real raid data.

Simming for outlaw is hilariously inflated, I also sim high (370k on it), but actual damage is far far lower, it sims horribly.

Sub and Assassination sims are much more realistic in a raid environment, I sim 370k on assassin and i hit 360-380 on single target.

oh yeah quoted the wrong guy gonna fix it :P

[Demeia]

While we do not know why Blizzard actually decided to nerf outlaw they would most certainly not nerf it on the outlier max potential burst. The RNG does average out and this can be proven by repeatable logs and dps numbers on fights. What people do during the course of the fight has a much larger impact on the overall dps numbers (like popping burst just before a mechanic like rot) and not the RNG of RTB.

I think we have a pretty good idea why the nerfed the spec: it was because of the outrageous value of Run Through + with our relics. They were trying to bring that down but they also nerfed our spec quite hard.

Basically, they are forcing us to play multiple specs; it was even Ion's specific example in the dialogue today when Rogues were mentioned. We have no choice but to swap to another spec for single target and then another for cleave. That's one of our "features". Mind you, I don't object to swapping specs but I do object to the investment I made in Outlaw being shot down while they are not willing to do the same for--in the same interview--Ice since it would harm fire mage's investment.

If they were going to nerf the relic, they should have considered putting that damage elsewhere in the spec.